Page 5 of 18 FirstFirst ...
3
4
5
6
7
15
... LastLast
  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Flying as it exists in WoW needs to be changed, the version we have is so stupidly broken as a movement option that the only possible way ot balance content around it is to completely remove it.
    Alternative movement options completely fail when compared to the option that is mounting up and flying from anywhere.

    The current compromise offered players is that flying is disabled entirely until later in an expansion, which does work in giving flying, but doesnt really satisfy either camp. Those who want the convenience of flying only getting it when the content is mostly deprecated, whereas those that doon't want flying to instead focus on better open world content essentially having their preferred version fo the game removed halfway through.

    What I then propose is a rework of flying that instead nerfs it in such a way that most of the convenience, in this case quick movement is preserved, with ground content still being a regular part of the game.


    Quite simply, flying is now only allowed from set points in a zone.
    To help visualize how thios would work imagine the zone of Maldraxxus. In this system flying could for example only be possible starting from the Seat of the Primus, you could then use flying to reach wherever you wanted on the map unhindered, though when you land and engage in content on the ground you would be locked to the ground, necessitating the use of ground mounts, with all the pros and cons that comes with it.

    In this way flying could be introduced earlier as the essential factor of ground content being a part of the game is preserved.
    Secondly it would also make the rules of flight more transparent. Absolute no-fly zones like Throne of Thunder or Argus would not be ground mounts only because flying is disabled, but instead because there does not exist areas that allow you to start flying.

    Another great factor to this version would be that flying could more easily be made easier or harder simply by adding more areas that allow flying in a zone. If Blizzard wants to use, say, the Barrens as a questing zone, they do not need to dismount players who fly, or similar tricks, but instead simply remove the areas in the Barrens that would allow you to start flying, allowing a far more organic and seamless exploration of the world that both allows flying and also doesnt completely undermine the idea of the game being ground based.


    Further discussion on alternatives to the current flight system as a whole welcome.
    How is it "removed halfway through" People that don't want flying can just not fly.

  2. #82
    I don't want it... even though it would be very easy for me to simply not use it, that's not good enough, I want other people to have to do without it too

  3. #83
    You just described slightly less limited flight paths GG

    Just design content around flying it’s been the way
    avatar by artist astri lohne

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Then why care at all about open world content at all? Why not instead try and petition Blizzaerd to allow you to teleport to inside any raid and let those that want open world content have it?
    A lot of games have fast travel. We have had this before in minor forms before, if you recall (even if we exclude Summoning Stones and Warlock Closets and Mass Summon). Teleports and portals to raid entrances have been done before, but besides this portals are an extensive part of this game at this point to the point where we now have dedicated portal room that is ever-expanding, and in the last few expansions we've relied on a whistle that basically did just teleport us to taxi points. Though I think for fast travel to be meaningful you can "beat" the content in that area to unlock fast travel to that area would be one way to go about it. That's basically what they require for Pathfinder, anyway. And oh yeah, we do actually teleport into raids for legacy LFR modes anyway.

  5. #85
    This will never work. Every expansion, some dolt like you makes a post about QQ remove flying because YOU don't want it but frame it as if the entire WoW community is the ones that don't want it. If you don't want to fly, great, stay on the ground. We do want to fly, for many various reasons that have already been mentioned here.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    How is it "removed halfway through" People that don't want flying can just not fly.
    Because the idea that if you don't want flying then you can ignore flying is a naive argument that avoids the entire debate of why people don't want it in the first place.
    Asking people to avoid flying is like asking players to write their own story. Or asking players to avoid shortcuts.

    At best it is the developers admitting they don't have faith in their own product, at worst it is them actively sabotaging themselves.


    Imagine for a moment that there was a gear Vendor in the game that gave you all the gear you wanted for free. All the content was still there and you could still gear up the normal way, but if you wanted to there was an easy way to essentially cheat and skip all that pesky gameplay and instead go straight for the ending.

    The core of the issue is that flying in WoW is not a balanced mechanic, there is no way to use it that doesnt have you avoid playing the game. There is no inherent weaknesss, there is no inherent cost, when you use it there are no obstacles the game that reasonably give you except taking flying away.

    Compare for instance to flying in GTA. You need to find a flying vehicle, you then need to take off. If you stole the vehicle then NPCs will try to shoot you down. Once you have the vehicle in the air you can in theory go anywhere, but landing is close to impossible, and landing in such a way that you can reuse the plane even more so.
    However you can also take a car, which has less weaknesses, but is also slower and cannot avoid every obstacle.

    GTA however is a game desigend to just have consequence free fun, and even that game understands the importance of not giving the player the power of infinite flight.
    WoW is a game where the open world content is actually supposed to have a baseline level of challenge meant to be an obstacle to the player the entire game, and in this game you get essentially infinite flight. The logic behind it is actually baffling when put into context of other games with flying.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    It's less that I wouldn't be good with it, and more that I could see issues where the terrain simply isn't built for mounts at that speed.

    Which then means designing the terrain with a lot more open space in order to accommodate the faster mounts. And I don't know if the game really needs more dead space - It just needs to properly utilize that space.
    Roads exist for a reason. If players can't handle the ground speeds they can fly - it's another alternative at a speed that would be ideally, comparable due to the shortcuts over terrain vs the base higher speed the ground gives.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I am not even sure what to say to that...

    Travelling is an essential part of an open-world game. We already have portal everywhere, and this version of flying is as fast as the game can realistically get without allowing instant teleports to anywhere.
    Tons of open world games have fast travel options that unlock once you've been at an area.
    Even ESO has fast travel.
    WoW has some fast travel, but it's usually limited to one or two locations per expansion.

    Flying freely in WoW is one of the most unique aspects of the game, imo.
    Removing it would be like asking Square-Enix to take Airships out of the FF series.
    It's been around since TBC and trying to remove it nearly killed the game once.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post

    Travelling is an essential part of an open-world game.
    i suppose thats why most open world games are terrible.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothal View Post
    *Gasp* Are you gatekeeping?
    Do you have anything to actually contribute to the conversation or are you just going to spam ad hominems? I don't even know what this so-called gatekeeping is and I can tell it's just a meaningless buzzword to invalidate people's arguments without arguing them.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by ProfesserLupin View Post
    This will never work. Every expansion, some dolt like you makes a post about QQ remove flying because YOU don't want it but frame it as if the entire WoW community is the ones that don't want it. If you don't want to fly, great, stay on the ground. We do want to fly, for many various reasons that have already been mentioned here.
    I want it because I want the game to be good. I specifically want hte open world contenet to be good.
    What I don't want is having those that openly and proudly declare themselves opponents of open world content being able to dictate means of skipping the content I want to be better.

    In the history of WoW I have yet to see a single instance of flying elevating the game. At best we got zones with more verticality. However since flying was removed I have seen the open world content improve drastically, far more so then it ever did since TBC.

    What I want is for the game to finally get rid of the thing that is holding it back and actually make flying a game mechanic that can enhance the game, and not just ignore it.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    You don't see it as a problem when a portion of the playerbase actively campaigns for a version of the game where they don't have to play it?

    I don't want flying gone, I want flying to not be detrimental to the game.


    And honestly, what about the current system works perfectly? Its only a compromise in the jokey ssense that it is a solution that neither party agrees with. We end up with one half of the game where content on the ground matters and is actually a game while one half whines about not being able to skip it, and then another half where those that don't want flying can only lament that a portion of the game has been unceremoniously gouged out.

    Make flying something that can actually exist in the game alongside ground travel without having to cater to players that want to skip the game.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Why not just make the game a lobby so that those who don't want to engage in the game can just teleport directly to raids.

    Players who want flying the current way clearly don't want ot engage in the gameplay part of WoW.
    Dude, this game is not Skyrim where every step you make there is a quest waiting for you. As soon as you finish the main campaign plus the secondary quests (2 months taking really slow?) there’s nothing more to see on ground apart from WQ (that are all the same and involve zones already visited for obvious reasons).

    It’s just normal that ppl wanna bypass the zones the faster possible.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiekyerbooty View Post
    I don't want it... even though it would be very easy for me to simply not use it, that's not good enough, I want other people to have to do without it too
    Try and imagine this argument if there was a gear vendor in the game, or a way to instakill bosses. Imagine if every PvP season you got a choice of getting the gladiator mount instantly or having to earn it.

    The idea that players should simply avoid a game mechanic added for the specific purpose of letting other players not play the game is absurd. We already have that option, and it is called not playing the game.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  14. #94
    Old God Grimbold21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Azores, Portugal
    Posts
    10,947
    I want flying if not only to escape the dreadful zone design that we've had to go through for the last 2 or 3 games

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    snip
    No, what you are saying is silly and pointless. Some people want the ease of it sooner because things take to long.

    Your flying to 1 point and then being locked to ground mounts....wtf that is what all those teleports we have are right now. So your idea is already ingame :S.
    And what does it solve? nothing. Once you land you are stuck in ground mode. Think the pro flyers at launch will not be happy with it.

    second one > the maw. And people still want to fly.

    Think your solution is broken and does not fix the problems there are for pro and anti fly at launch people. A real not well thought thruh solution.

    First off why do people want or not want flying:
    Pro flyers:
    - it takes to long to do stuff
    - its silly to get the handy stuff , when its no longer needed.

    Anti flying:
    - herb/ore dive bomb
    - dive bomb of quest stuff etc etc
    - takes away from the story if you need to rush to compete.

    Blizzard:
    - why do we make zones then, if everyone fly's over them.
    - Burn thruh content much faster. Aka winers: where is my content.


    Some other reasons also exist. But try to make it not to long.


    So what do we need to fix to give flying at launch>?
    - dive bomb of many things.
    - story rush
    - world building


    How can we fix it?

    story rush:
    - Make flying dangerous. More old fashion turrets/archers that shoot you out of the sky. Even for NPC's bases.
    - more flying monsters on different levels. So from ground to top of sky box creaturs that attack you. And make them hurt you. Or give you debuffs
    - more cave stuff, houses etc you need to go in. Inside stuff.
    - make it so that in some zones you need to do some quests etc. Or get a rep/item to allow flying in that specific zone. Like stormsong has a lot of ocean winds. So you need a quest that teaches you to fly the wind like a seagull. So when you enter the zone you get the mark of the seagull ( after the quest) and it will work,.
    - or give good reasons why story wise some zones have no flying.
    - make quest that make you transport stuff on the ground. Or even more....( sorry) bodygaurd quests.

    world building:
    - make more floating islands. Stuff you need to fly to for quests.
    - make zones with more mountains. content to do on all levels. from ravines to mountains. And make parts of zones even non flying. Story wise.
    - way WAY more tree's etc. So flyers can not see the stuff on the ground. And forcing them to go low.
    - make you dismount when you fly under stuff like tree's etc
    - maybe make area's where you can take off into the sky. And not everywhere. Like you can only take off when you have nothing above you. So if you are in darkshire flying will be a nightmare.
    - Or that only in rest area's you can take off ( kinda like your idea).
    - Or a wisthle that only alows you to mount a flying mount in the wild every X minutes.

    dive bombing: This is hard one to find a solution for.
    - I think the last reasons from the world building section will help.
    - make ore's more a chore to get. So not just right click. But something that takes time.
    - Or dismount you, even as druid....;'( ( shooting my self in the foot here). When you farm.
    - For rares, make them tougher.
    - for quest stuff , again the last 3 idea's from world building would help. Or not being able to see them from the sky.
    - making dismounting a thing that takes time. So if you try to dive bomb a player's quest stuff. You need to wait a second or 2.


    Even with all of this people will still complain. Because i think part of the problem is not to want to spend to much time doing stuff. But its a game/mmorpg...so stuff takes time. And handing everything at start will brake the game.
    And i know not all off the above is possible. Its just some idea's.

    For me personal, faster flying is good. but at launch not. I still have not heard any good reason why we should get it. Many games/mmo's do not have flying. And flying in video's ussauly means burning to content faster or making it much easyier. From minecraft to WoW to Zelda to Halo. And it makes the world so much smaller.
    Last edited by baskev; 2021-03-15 at 10:51 PM. Reason: add somethings

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Dude, this game is not Skyrim where every step you make there is a quest waiting for you. As soon as you finish the main campaign plus the secondary quests (2 months taking really slow?) there’s nothing more to see on ground apart from WQ (that are all the same and involve zones already visited for obvious reasons).

    It’s just normal that ppl wanna bypass the zones the faster possible.
    The fact taht there is nothing in the world actually makes teh idea that players should be able to skip it more absurd.

    What do they even want to do in the world if not play in it?

    Running to dungeon entrances is a form of gameplay. And the game even helpfully already has summoning stones so pro-flying people can completely skip the open world they ahte so much. Why is it so insane to think that some players still have fun in the open-world and want it to still be a game?


    Honestly the question for flying is always the same: "Why do you even want it for?".
    You clearly don't want ot engage in the world, so why do you want to add the option to remove the gameplay from something you already ignore? What do you even need flying to get to?
    Can't be world quests, that is gameplay.
    Can't be exploration, that is gameplay too.
    Can't be getting to raid entrances, that's gameplay, not to mention already something that has the option ot let you skip that pesky game you are palying.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    snip.
    flying doesnt break anything, its just makes tedious things like world quests take less time, the only reason flying is restricted at first is so players actually pay attention to the areas before they eventually just fly to where they need to go.

    There is no discussion needed as flying does the job its supposed to do, makes it faster to get places in a zone simple as that, resticting flying at all is stupid as it is, why do you suddenly forget or are unable to fly just because your in a certain area.

    Only improved for flying would be let players access it as soon as they have finished the first part of the storyline available, so your renown 40 you should be able to fly now.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-03-15 at 10:56 PM.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  18. #98
    Flying needs what WoW in general needs: remember its meant to be an rpg not a mobile game. An rpg is about achievable unlocks, gaining new tools for your kit to progress to or access new things in some regard. Not chasing a number just to feel a dopamine release while developing a habit around the hamster wheel. Thats not an rpg. Thats a mobile gacha game.

    Flying in this instance originally served the same purpose in burning crusade as zoras flippers did in zelda. How did you get to the netherwing egg area? or the ogres above shattrath? or any number of floating islands -some of which included dungeons or raid entrances- in general? you unlocked flying. It wasn't "hey my number got bigger" it was "hey the explorable world got bigger". The reward was the chase of new rewards after the chase for that reward.

    But since warlords of maybe even pandaria if you didnt get the water walking mount is became sheer convenience to skip an open world the devs treated post levelling as a obstacle and not an environment to explore.

    Like wouldn't it be nice if there were more islands floating out there in the shadowlands to find? with new things to find? or will we just use it to get to each world quest faster because thats all the world is anymore?
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  19. #99
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    16,343
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Quite simply, flying is now only allowed from set points in a zone.
    You mean... the fight taxi NPCs?

    Because what you're describing is almost exactly that: flying from point A to point B, and then have to use ground mounts until you return. What's the real difference, here? You don't have to pay 1-2 gold every time you fly?

    If Blizzard wants to use, say, the Barrens as a questing zone, they do not need to dismount players who fly, or similar tricks, but instead simply remove the areas in the Barrens that would allow you to start flying,
    Um.. what? Remove zones from the game that allow flying?
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    flying doesnt break anything, its just makes tedious things like world quests take less time, the only reason flying is restricted at first is so players actually pay attention to the areas before they eventually just fly to where they need to go.

    There is no discussion needed as flying does the job its supposed to do, makes it faster to get places in a zone simple as that, resticting flying at all is stupid as it is, why do you suddenly forget or are unable to fly just because your in a certain area.
    The current version of flying actively takes away from the game.

    Take for instance this scenario:

    Without flying: You see a rare, it is on the other side of a ravine. To get to it you need ot run around and find a bridge. However, the rare is already engaged, you need to get across the ravine quickly, you then remember that you play a goblin and that you can therefore rocket jump across. Alternatively you play a hunter and can disengage across. Maybe you try to get into the group killing the rare to get the loot since you are close enough, or have the group pull the rare closer to the edge.

    With flying: You see the rare, you mount up and go across.


    The game is filled with small moments of gameplay like these. Do you run through a mob pack or around it. Maybe you have immunity to daze, or an absorb shield. Maybe the enemies are overlevelled. Maybe you just run through and kill them if you get dazed. Maybe you see an ore node on a cliff, do you run to get it despite it requiring a bit of finesse or do you ignore it since it might take significant time to get to it.
    That's not even mentioning the very obvious things like the treasures in zones dependant on learning to use the enviroment, whether to get down a wall without dying, or searcing for the correct mushroom to climb.
    With flying all these small moments of gmaeplay devolve into "mount up and go straight to X".
    The world revamp dream will never die!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •