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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Yes, but the timers in FFXIV are forgiving enough that you have a reasonable expectation of completing the dungeon within the timer (the timer is typically 60 to 80 minutes, depending on what kind of dungeon, trial, or raid you're doing).

    That said, it isn't just (or even primarily) the timers contributing to toxicity in pugs in WoW; pugs and LFG chat have been full of abrasive assholes since I joined back in 2007. Blizzard's adamant refusal to enforce any kind of code of conduct ever since the early days is why WoW has one of the more infamously-toxic communities in gaming. It isn't the cross-realm matchmaking in groups, either, since FFXIV has that, too. It's that FFXIV punishes you if you're consistently an asshole and the community works to make sure to report people who are being assholes. Enforcing a code of conduct makes a world of difference, and this isn't to say FFXIV is without its bad eggs, it's that they're a markedly smaller portion of your daily interactions because FFXIV actually claps people who routinely show their ass. Blizzard lets things go because Bobby Kotick thinks a well-staffed customer service department is a wasteful expenditure preventing him from gold-plating his toilet.
    This is actually sounding really nice. Maybe it is time for a change and to consider FFXIV.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    Just one reason out of about a dozen or so that I have always abhorred M+, and would like to see it removed entirely from the game.
    Yeah i also think we should remove the 1 thing that has kept wow alive for a good while now.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    Just one reason out of about a dozen or so that I have always abhorred M+, and would like to see it removed entirely from the game.
    What an absurd notion, wishing things that you dislike to be removed. What a miserable life you must live.

  4. #64
    Elemental Lord GreenJesus's Avatar
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    Oh man. Theres always that one dps that flames a tank for pulling 2 extra mobs or something and you just try to keep the group together. "Guys there's still time! Let's just keep going." And then the dps calls the tank a retard. The tank says no fuck you and leaves. Then I get left with a depleted key. Omegalul.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Do FFIV dungeons have a timer?

    Because 90% of toxicity is caused by major rewards being locked behind a timer.
    they dont but the game has Nazi Game masters that insta permabaning your ass for telling some one hes "bad at a video game" or even if you teach someone something, they even baned dps meters to that the bad trash players dont get offended. So yea everyone is "chilled" cuz they dont want to lose the acc

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    What an absurd notion, wishing things that you dislike to be removed. What a miserable life you must live.
    Eh, the problem is that it's tied firmly into gear progression, even moreso since they for some unfathomable reason tied valor purely to mythic+.

    I don't mind M+ and don't want to see it removed, but I can see why people are resentful of it.

    Blizzard added a feature that only a portion of the playerbase wanted to a game that was already what, 14 years old at the time? Then said okay, now everyone has to do this stressful unforgiving timed content which is 100% reliant on every member of your group participating to their fullest if they want to keep getting the best gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    they dont but the game has Nazi Game masters that insta permabaning your ass for telling some one hes "bad at a video game" or even if you teach someone something, they even baned dps meters to that the bad trash players dont get offended. So yea everyone is "chilled" cuz they dont want to lose the acc
    While I won't deny that their community is conditioned in this way, FFXIV also mechanically enforces a degree of competence, at least to a greater degree than WoW, through solo challenges in the main story questline. I'm not saying that's good. It's kind of a double edged sword really: WoW lets anyone queue for anything with little oversight, and the community gets a bad rep for all levels of response to that, while FFXIV gates a lot of its access to multiplayer "ambition" through making sure "all the bads are filtered out" (or at least some of them) or are made to improve. So the community appears friendly in most cases for two reasons, one because of what you've already said, but two because "if you're here you've passed XYZ and if you were bad you couldn't be here so yay for filtration!" There are, of course, positives and negatives to both extremes... but FFXIV is definitely an extreme on said spectrum.

    In WoW, the story is a given, you WILL get to see it all, and you can queue for whatever whenever.

    In FFXIV, the story gates a lot of features, and you are frequently tested as to your "worth" to go any further toward fully being open to multiplayer queueing. In their defense though, from shadowbringers on you have the option to run dungeons with NPCs.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    well, if you bothered to read the what the op wrote, you'd realize that person clearly doesn't. so you look like an idiot trying to say i look like a noob.
    Lol don't get so defensive. Just offering you advice that if you're spamming up chat, it's probably best to not keep doing that. Keep the addon to improve your own play without looking like a prat lol. If I have 80+ runic power, and there's a low dmg pool in between me and the mob, im going to jump thru it, take 1 tick if ams is down, instantly deathstrike the hp back, and gain 3+ secs of up time.

  9. #69
    Yes, there will always be "that guy". It has been like this since the beginning of wow in pugs.

    And it is just getting worse and worse because of M+ form and mentality.

    But I never understand the reason to make this kind of thread giving such vivid details about a random pug. Does OP just want to tell us a story?

    I am sure everyone has experience this before. We know that this won't change or achieve anything.

  10. #70
    Yeah, most of the time the toxic players are just in denial about their own skill, so they lash out and try to blame others. Trying to reason with them is not worth your time.

  11. #71
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    While I won't deny that their community is conditioned in this way, FFXIV also mechanically enforces a degree of competence, at least to a greater degree than WoW, through solo challenges in the main story questline. I'm not saying that's good. It's kind of a double edged sword really: WoW lets anyone queue for anything with little oversight, and the community gets a bad rep for all levels of response to that, while FFXIV gates a lot of its access to multiplayer "ambition" through making sure "all the bads are filtered out" (or at least some of them) or are made to improve. So the community appears friendly in most cases for two reasons, one because of what you've already said, but two because "if you're here you've passed XYZ and if you were bad you couldn't be here so yay for filtration!" There are, of course, positives and negatives to both extremes... but FFXIV is definitely an extreme on said spectrum.

    In WoW, the story is a given, you WILL get to see it all, and you can queue for whatever whenever.

    In FFXIV, the story gates a lot of features, and you are frequently tested as to your "worth" to go any further toward fully being open to multiplayer queueing. In their defense though, from shadowbringers on you have the option to run dungeons with NPCs.
    Also worth noting, FFXIV's "beef gates" are both extremely forgiving in difficulty (you just have to be awake and aware of the telegraphs' safe spots) and they have failure prevention baked in. Eventually you can stack enough Echo to brute-force almost any solo Duty in the game, and the few you can't are typically roleplay fights where you're given an overpowered NPC like Hien or Y'shtola, or you have allies shoving Cures and Physicks down your gullet to pad your health bar. If you eat dirt enough times the game will allow you to opt into an easy mode for solo duties which hit the enemy with huge nerfs and crank up your Blessing of Light.

    FFXIV mostly just teaches you baseline competence, which is what systems like LFR excel best at (see MoP-era LFR, or even Legion-era), and even then it's built in such a way that if you're more patient than skilled you still have a reasonable expectation of victory. And Trusts can be a real mixed bag just like Squadron dungeons, because the AI doesn't handle certain mechanics very well, especially intercept mechanics.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  12. #72
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    One thing that is amazing in games is that it demonstrates Dunning-Kruger quite well.



    Everybody believes that they are at least an above average player. To understand how bad they are would require that they would be a better player.

    The most angry players tend to be on the left side of the scale. Not a whole lot you can do besides avoid them.

  13. #73
    The worst ppl are usually the ones who flame the most. It's a defense mechanism to try and take the attention off of themselves (though it generally has the opposite effect). You see it everywhere. Go into any random BG, 9 times out of 10 the dps bitching the most is on the bottom of damage. It's pathetic.
    Last edited by BananaHandsB; 2021-03-18 at 12:45 AM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    they dont but the game has Nazi Game masters that insta permabaning your ass for telling some one hes "bad at a video game" or even if you teach someone something, they even baned dps meters to that the bad trash players dont get offended. So yea everyone is "chilled" cuz they dont want to lose the acc
    I don’t sign for nazi gms either (even if I don’t tolerate insults in a videogame that much) but one must be really blind not to see that in the end the major issue/culprit for toxicity is the timer.

    I lost count of my runs failed within 3 minutes above the timer, with all the related chat rages in the end.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    Eh, the problem is that it's tied firmly into gear progression, even moreso since they for some unfathomable reason tied valor purely to mythic+.

    I don't mind M+ and don't want to see it removed, but I can see why people are resentful of it.

    Blizzard added a feature that only a portion of the playerbase wanted to a game that was already what, 14 years old at the time? Then said okay, now everyone has to do this stressful unforgiving timed content which is 100% reliant on every member of your group participating to their fullest if they want to keep getting the best gear.
    Having to do challenging content that relies on everyone bringing their A-game in order to get the best gear the game offers? How dare they, the cads! /s
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  16. #76
    I remember in TBC when running Deadmines with friends, we would take our time, enjoy the run, and not worry about loot or being in a hurry. Now everyone either has to speed through places at 100mph (run-n-gun tanking) or if they don't get the ONE thing they needed as an upgrade, they drop group, requeue, and go through to the exact same boss all over again. I get the disappointment behind not getting the drop, but it takes a real douche-nugget to ruin a run for other people, especially when it is the tank, healer, or a pair who queued together.
    “Common sense is not so common.” ~ Voltaire

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechagnome View Post
    I remember in TBC when running Deadmines with friends, we would take our time, enjoy the run, and not worry about loot or being in a hurry. Now everyone either has to speed through places at 100mph (run-n-gun tanking) or if they don't get the ONE thing they needed as an upgrade, they drop group, requeue, and go through to the exact same boss all over again. I get the disappointment behind not getting the drop, but it takes a real douche-nugget to ruin a run for other people, especially when it is the tank, healer, or a pair who queued together.
    Being in a reasonable hurry is not an issue. The issue is that beyond a certain point you have to find a pitch perfect random comp to time the dungeons and this is almost never the case.

    I am now working in the 11-13 bracket and the time I find 3 dps who are all above 4K damage are something like one on twenty.

    I am not the best healer by a wide margin but if pulls take forever and people continue to take ALWAYS damage, thus the weekly dot, forever and ever, I just can’t keep everyone alive without going oom every 2 pulls.

    Sometimes I wish I could afford to buy a boost not to time the key 100% but just to be able to play with someone that plays decently and have a clearer idea on how bad or good I am. I am fine to failing some specific mechanics, especially on bosses, I still fail some of them too, but I just can’t understand how ppl with 3,5k dps managed to reach about 1000 rio.
    Last edited by chiddie; 2021-03-18 at 08:17 AM.

  18. #78
    Hey guys, i see this a bit different than the most of you. If you run dungeon all time with the same tank or the same routes and pulls you train a pattern of how you play. Now the play with a other group who pull complete different, you want to play your comfort pattern, but it wont work. Eg. 10sec after pull the tank pulls another group ...
    So you get freaking out because he destroys your rotation. You have to run with the tank and maybe you die or forget to kick, whatever.
    This guy is not a top player and not flexible, but he will time easy 15-19 in non chaotic runs. He know this and flames the group/tank for the chaos run. Dont get mad because he is mad, he only have a bad day.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    However, when I see a Russian name in my M+ pugs, I am always super wary.
    I have met two types:
    1)Oh god, why did I invite this guy?
    2) Holy shit, this guy is god-tier player.

  20. #80
    I mean, you are running with 1,6k to 2,1k score people on a +15 dungeon.

    I don't know what mistakes you can possibly make or even pull wrong if the tank is in your group to being with.
    If you have that high a score then how can you not follow the same route you do at +18/+19?
    You can time a +15 with a full pug group having 20+ deaths if the tank does a good enough route.

    I assume you did some major dumb fucking mistakes if you tilted a low score player that much.
    Especially since timing the dungeon was even part of the discussion.

    So without context on actually what happened I'm not going to side with OP on this.
    The guy probably joined with the assumption that people were taking this seriously enough to not do shit that players on a +10 wouldn't.

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