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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    I think SL season 1 is hardly comparable to BfA season 4. The BfA dungeons in the last season were nerfed by gear, by corruption, by the legendary cloak and by the corruption vendor. I think the difference in power creep was quite significant between the start and the end of the season, especially for secondary stats. In comparison, SL dungeons have been naturally nerfed by a less significant margin.

    Second point, it was easier to outgear content in BfA (reward structure more generous, azerite vendors). It's probably better to compare this SL season to the first BfA season, which was brutal too, except that you only had to push to +10 to get the best rewards. I don't think dungeons were really more forgiving, every BfA dungeon could turn into a nightmare depending on the affixes.

    I share your opinion after healing some +15 keys with grievous: this season feels brutal, definitely more demanding and challenging than the last BfA season.
    Grievous is all about your group: if everyone takes damage every second and noone use personal “stuff” to try delete ticks by themselves, you won’t keep them up forever, end of the story.

    My yesterday experience (I’m healer):
    - NW 12 number 1: 2 wipes between 1st and second boss: group disbanded. Had to rec A LOT.
    - NW 12 number 2: 10 random deaths total, key timed. Maybe 1 rec before last boss.

    More or less same ilvl and rio for the party, I was always the healer. With grievous it ALL relies on the whole group itself.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Damage is very bad for those ilvls bone spear cast is long.
    Prot pala alone can do 3 interrupts and a stun in 4 globals plus fear undead, if you are lucky on procs you can do even more. (I play prot pala)
    Shaman has shortest interrupt CDs in-game - 12sec, plus two stuns as enhancement
    BM has interrupt and stun
    Destro has stun and fear and interrupt pet (not sure if viable currently)
    Disc has knock, shackle, fear and maybe (?) stun, not very familiar with it tbh.

    I mean you had so many tools to deal with it...
    WoW is not overtunned, it just has more difficulties available, but just because something exist, it does not mean that it is for everyone. I bet there will be people who will thing TBC raids/Dungeons are overtuned.
    Yeah, most people don't know how or what to interrupt. Been trying to teach my guild for years and it feels like herding cats with half of them. Can you believe that just a couple weeks ago I found out most of them don't see the cast bars if they don't have that target selected?
    Not a lot of dpses who use their class tools - interrupts, dispell (tell me the last time you saw a dps dispell a disease off himself), stuns, remove enrage, decurse (good luck with a mage that actually tracks this), put curse on hard hitting mobs and so on. It's funny when you tell a lock to banish an add in Plaguefall and they start searching for banish in their spellbook...
    And yeah, I say this as a tank who marks and calls almost everything out, calls interrupt rotations, calls for stuns by people's names and abilities.

    Actually, nevermind that about interrupting. Most dpses don't prepare at all. They just go in, follow tank, use CDs whenever they're up and if stuff doesn't work, the tank was an idiot or healer was bad. Dpses don't even care about the route to plan some CDs. They burst all their CDs same time and then they have nothing for the next pack / pride.

  3. #23
    I said it already in other threads. I pugged my KSM 2 times on 2 different tanks. One KSM was PUG only. Yes it is harder and that is the Intention. There is noticable jump from 14 to 15 an 15 it starts to be unforgiving. Higher DPS is what gives you more room to maybe make a mistake. With a decent cordinated grp a 15 is easy. But with PUGs i have to play 30-50% better to compensate for bad dps, missing kicks, bad movement lack of healing.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    I have JUST timed a +14 ToP (we've had a little under a minute left), which is boss, and not trash heavy, with a
    222 destro - 4.5k
    222 enha - 4.2k
    219 bm - 3.8k
    216 prot pala
    217 disc

    We've had 11 deaths, almost everything was a one-shot, like, we got hit by 34k bone spears + a tick of grievious and you're done.
    Ofc we could have been played better, but come on, I thought that Ion hates the top 1% and designs this to cater to the other 99%, I want my free 3-chests, easy and fun runs.

    If I want one-shot mechanics I will play flappy bird, cuphead, dead cells, nioh or something like that, thanks (but even, those games are labelled as BRUTAL, still, WoW has more oneshot mechanics)
    Holy moly, this is not good dps. Also: You should be able to silence basic things like the bone spears. Rule of the thumb in WoW is: If it's a one-shot mechanic, you have to put highest priority on learning it.
    My last +12 ToP I had 4.5k with 216 ivl, and I know that it is hard to see that dps is not right, because you are in your own bubble there. I know that because my 215 ilvl boyfriend only does 3.6k. Which is good enough, but SL is his first wow expansion. He's still learning his class.
    If you're dying to mechanics you should have avoided while not doing ilvl-equivalent damage (especially the bm should do 4k+), then I'm confused as to why you're blaming it on blizzard. You are not good. Me neither. But M+ is challenging content and it's not designed to give you free loot at these levels.
    WoW gives all players a glimpse of lore, but delivers well thought-out books for the nerds. Forums like MMO-C are the hotspot of discussion, because every reader reads a book different, and every player reads a game different, not everyone played every quest, and not everyone read every book. Sylvanas' character motivation is the most obvious example of that.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Squigglyo View Post
    I have timed 1 +14 out of the 70 ive run.
    Yes and the people you are running with did the same. Here's the thing with current pug situation:
    - let's say there's a bad player
    - he'll pug and pug and ruin 70 keys but eventually time the key; usually gets into those key by being meta
    - gets rio for it and continues on
    - eventually rio is high enough and he starts thinking he's actually a good player
    - with that in mind, doesn't try to imrove; somehow starts believing that everyone in his group is bad and they just have bad luck; their "proof" is that they timed the key with other people, so obviously that means the other people are the issue, not that the other people carried their ass
    - this type of player is the base of the pugging "community"; because they are persistent enough to be there for the whole day every day and fill up the queues

    So there you go. It's the pugging scene as it is. People will not ask themselves what they could've done better for the run to work, they will just look at everything else - what the others didn't do or did do, how the overall expansion situation affected things but never ever "Am I a bad player? Should I try to improve? Could I have done better or prevented a wipe?".

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Yeah, most people don't know how or what to interrupt. Been trying to teach my guild for years and it feels like herding cats with half of them. Can you believe that just a couple weeks ago I found out most of them don't see the cast bars if they don't have that target selected?
    Not a lot of dpses who use their class tools - interrupts, dispell (tell me the last time you saw a dps dispell a disease off himself), stuns, remove enrage, decurse (good luck with a mage that actually tracks this), put curse on hard hitting mobs and so on. It's funny when you tell a lock to banish an add in Plaguefall and they start searching for banish in their spellbook...
    And yeah, I say this as a tank who marks and calls almost everything out, calls interrupt rotations, calls for stuns by people's names and abilities.

    Actually, nevermind that about interrupting. Most dpses don't prepare at all. They just go in, follow tank, use CDs whenever they're up and if stuff doesn't work, the tank was an idiot or healer was bad. Dpses don't even care about the route to plan some CDs. They burst all their CDs same time and then they have nothing for the next pack / pride.
    Infact the issue is that higher level dungeons are tuned basing on dps trying to not simply stand and do their rotations but trying to “run away little girl” and possibly use their skills buttons that are not only dps related.

    What a pity this is almost never the case and we tanks/healers are always blamed for not keeping ppl up (and if we keep up and have to rec is bad mana management, not them taking more damage than tanks, of course).

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    and this is what is wrong with wow nowadays also

    the delta of variation of possible dps from top 5% and majority of playerbase is beyond crazy .

    most wow players simply do not play at this level and yet game is catered only to this level of gameplay

    thats why majority just throws the towel and give up and plays other games

    wow is just to hard and to overtuned for your average player
    It's kinda funny, my problem is the opposite. You get like 80% of your theoretical DPS for playing at 50% "perfection", the reward for actually mastering a spec is way too small.
    Voidshuffle
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    Laughing Skull-EU

  8. #28
    Tanking is much harder in SL so it’s much more tedious for dps players to find a group with a good tank.

    Also, a +15 key in BFA season 4 was much easier than a +15 key in SL season 1.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    They absolutely are. Actually they are so good that they can be doubted in the first place:
    Destruction Warlock current affixes dps ToP
    Enhancment
    BM
    Not a lot of people log their M+ runs, so the numbers on WCL are going to be quite misleading. There's also some difference between how logs and Details count active time in keys(Details only counts in-combat time, logs count the entire run), so you'll get different numbers for that reason.

    Just as an example because I happened to log some keys yesterday, here's the difference:


    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done
    Last edited by Tradu; 2021-03-19 at 11:14 AM.
    Voidshuffle
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    If someone times 1 key in 70 tries, we know the common denominator of all the failures unless he had the worst chance ever.
    My thought too, but there is more to that sometimes - inviting way lower people, inviting tanks who have no clue (due to scarcity).
    On my anecdotal evidence: I have failed a +8 because we just invited people who were somewhat ok ilvl, ended up explaining a person that he has certain spells in his spellbook, healer seemed to have only one healing spell and other dps APM must have been like playing chess. Obviously we were ok with that, it's a +8, but if you don't look at rio and only invite based on "he has the gear which is reasonable for the dungeon" aka slightly below the dungeon drops, you might see a whole different world of WoW.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Yeah, most people don't know how or what to interrupt. Been trying to teach my guild for years and it feels like herding cats with half of them. Can you believe that just a couple weeks ago I found out most of them don't see the cast bars if they don't have that target selected?
    Playing without nameplates? Otherwise they would download an addon and manually disable that or not?
    It's funny tho
    But that is what I am saying that there is whole world of WoW which I don't even know that exists. As long as those people enjoy the game, I guess that is not the problem, but I can see that the community can burn them if they step into "big boy world"

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    the answer is very simple. m+ were a bit easier in BfA due to azerite / hearth of azeroth and TF .

    still the completion ratio of KSM was atrocious bad untill 8.3 when people coudl get 470 itlv gear from visions with bis corruptions and eventually just buy bis corruptions.

    only then completion ratio jumped up

    now they are back to where they always were.

    thas why you have such problems to get into 14-15.

    what would help immensly would be allowing to wear 2nd legendary in 9.0.5 - but it didnt happen .

    - - - Updated - - -



    and this is what is wrong with wow nowadays also

    the delta of variation of possible dps from top 5% and majority of playerbase is beyond crazy .

    most wow players simply do not play at this level and yet game is catered only to this level of gameplay

    thats why majority just throws the towel and give up and plays other games

    wow is just to hard and to overtuned for your average player
    This is why WoW (and most other games) have various difficulty settings. If the higher difficulty is too hard for someone that is ok.

    If the game was really catered to the elite we wouldn’t have 4 raid difficulty levels, 15 dungeon difficulty levels with gear rewards, and a 1000 rating scale with rewards every 200-300 rating in PvP. It would only be the hardest.

    What it more sounds like is some people cannot accept that a difficulty exists that they can complete somewhat easily.
    Last edited by Argorwal; 2021-03-19 at 03:52 PM.

  12. #32
    BFA didn't have that much anti-melee mechanics.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Yeah, most people don't know how or what to interrupt...
    I think it's more that just that, though. There is a learning curve from doing lower-mid keys to higher keys. I like to call it the "this ability didn't really matter at +7, but now it's destroying me" curve. For example: having an interrupt rotation isn't something you really need if you aren't doing high keys, as long as people know the most dangerous abilities and use their interrupts/stuns with some regularity. It's when you get higher, and there are those abilities that suddenly you can't just out-heal, and you'd better coordinate to keep them from getting through.
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    Not a lot of people log their M+ runs, so the numbers on WCL are going to be quite misleading. There's also some difference between how logs and Details count active time in keys(Details only counts in-combat time, logs count the entire run), so you'll get different numbers for that reason.

    Just as an example because I happened to log some keys yesterday, here's the difference:
    Yes absolutely, so to have a common understanding when talking about DPS only the DPS shown on warcraftlogs matters, because as you have said the ingame numbers of details, skada and (yes people are still using this) recount are vastly different as every meter uses a different method to calculate dps. And so the log sites are the only reliable source where you could objectively compare dps. Nobody would care for some dps screenshot in a raid, why would that be different for m+?

    And while it's true that it only shows a tiny fragment of m+, but when you see the top 10 destro logs start at 4200 dps from people who do m18+ in time it's just silly to claim that 4300 dps is trash.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    I think it's more that just that, though. There is a learning curve from doing lower-mid keys to higher keys. I like to call it the "this ability didn't really matter at +7, but now it's destroying me" curve. For example: having an interrupt rotation isn't something you really need if you aren't doing high keys, as long as people know the most dangerous abilities and use their interrupts/stuns with some regularity. It's when you get higher, and there are those abilities that suddenly you can't just out-heal, and you'd better coordinate to keep them from getting through.
    I think there is a sizable portion that wants being able to do higher keys to be based on their gear and not on their team skill, synergy, and coordination.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    To be honest this dps is trash for 219-222 ilvl. It's as if you did a +14 with 3 200-205 dps. I overtimed a +15 NW yesterday by 34 seconds while we had more than 30 deaths. Some dungeons are way more generous with mistakes.
    I just tried to pug a +12 top... highest dps 3.4K, lowest 2.9k. All around 210 ilvl. Sad panda.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    And while it's true that it only shows a tiny fragment of m+, but when you see the top 10 destro logs start at 4200 dps from people who do m18+ in time it's just silly to claim that 4300 dps is trash.
    Ask absolutely anyone that does respectable keys if they think that 4,3k dps is normal at 222 ilvl and see how they answer. I did 5k overall on my 212 DH on a +12 PF with downtime due to Spiteful and some wipes, am I a god gamer then?

    https://ibb.co/5rCx9kP

    https://ibb.co/c2P348N

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I just tried to pug a +12 top... highest dps 3.4K, lowest 2.9k. All around 210 ilvl. Sad panda.
    I feel you bro, sorry for you.
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2021-03-19 at 07:59 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    I think there is a sizable portion that wants being able to do higher keys to be based on their gear and not on their team skill, synergy, and coordination.
    Agreed. I’m not on a “team”. I’m pugging, as are most players. I accept that this means I will face some limitations at the start of a tier, but my hope is that gear helps eliminate those.

    My issue with shadowlands is the mechanics are very unforgiving and require a lot of coordination so gear doesn’t really help.

  19. #39
    Imagine going out of your way to tell everyone your brain is too slow to stop a 3 hour cast like Bone Spear
    Last edited by Skillslam; 2021-03-19 at 09:05 PM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Skillslam View Post
    Imagine going out of your way to tell everyone your brain is too slow to stop a 3 hour cast like Bone Spear
    Imagine making a straw man argument lol.

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