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  1. #1

    Whats different between BFA and SL mythic+?

    In the last season I decided to get KSM.

    I tried on my warlock, but was either never invited or kicked instantly from most high keys simply for being a warlock.
    Tried my own keys, but failing once or twice and then having to build back up to fail again was a real deal breaker.

    I rolled a DH dps. Geared it up and pugged KSM fairly easily.
    Every run was either good or immeditatly bad (and easy to leave from).
    I was able to build up from +10, to +11, +12, +13, +14 and then got into +15.
    I waited 5 weeks for the right rotation to get +15 in TD, that was the pug killed on most affixes.


    This time in SL, i tried again with my lock, same deal. So rolled a Hunter, figured it and/or Mage was meta, and I would get invites.
    Getting invited to groups was not an issue until I got to groups doing +14 or +15. I might get invited 1 in every 50 i apply for.
    I have timed 1 +14 out of the 70 ive run.
    i have cleared every dungeon on +13, with 1 +14 by pugging.


    Is there something different this time around?
    Is it cause im comparing the last season of an expansion with the first of this?
    Did corruptions make things much easier?
    Were the dungeons just much more forgiving?
    Is the vault killing it by making +14s a breeding grounds for inexperienced pugs?


    Ive found some of these dungeons to be very heavy on trash before you see the first boss, making it hard to gauge how good a group is until your well into the dungeon.
    Ive found there are so many bosses this time around that have 1-hit kill mechanics.
    Ive found that trash seems to have so many more abilities this time around.
    Ive found that this time around, without WF/TF I have no need to run lower keys, ever. The only loot I would want comes from +14 or higher.
    Ive found that with there being no benefit other than speed, lower keys are of no use to me whatsoever.


    What is the thing that is making KSM this time around so much more of a nightmare than last time?
    Is it that since theres no need to run lower keys, many people are aiming higher despite their lack of experience? I figure in BFA you could get experience and be happy running lower keys because of WF/TF (plenty of carries for low keys in WM for example every week, im guessing some tank/healer trinket dropped there)
    If I can figure out what it is, i can maybe figure out a workaround, as is, the ONLY way im seeing clears +14 or higher is with my guild, whereas BFA pugging them was not an issue.

  2. #2
    I think SL season 1 is hardly comparable to BfA season 4. The BfA dungeons in the last season were nerfed by gear, by corruption, by the legendary cloak and by the corruption vendor. I think the difference in power creep was quite significant between the start and the end of the season, especially for secondary stats. In comparison, SL dungeons have been naturally nerfed by a less significant margin.

    Second point, it was easier to outgear content in BfA (reward structure more generous, azerite vendors). It's probably better to compare this SL season to the first BfA season, which was brutal too, except that you only had to push to +10 to get the best rewards. I don't think dungeons were really more forgiving, every BfA dungeon could turn into a nightmare depending on the affixes.

    I share your opinion after healing some +15 keys with grievous: this season feels brutal, definitely more demanding and challenging than the last BfA season.
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2021-03-19 at 08:15 AM.

  3. #3
    Are more people just getting their all 15 timers then just stopping and up grading gear with easy vp now?

  4. #4
    I have JUST timed a +14 ToP (we've had a little under a minute left), which is boss, and not trash heavy, with a
    222 destro - 4.5k
    222 enha - 4.2k
    219 bm - 3.8k
    216 prot pala
    217 disc

    We've had 11 deaths, almost everything was a one-shot, like, we got hit by 34k bone spears + a tick of grievious and you're done.
    Ofc we could have been played better, but come on, I thought that Ion hates the top 1% and designs this to cater to the other 99%, I want my free 3-chests, easy and fun runs.

    If I want one-shot mechanics I will play flappy bird, cuphead, dead cells, nioh or something like that, thanks (but even, those games are labelled as BRUTAL, still, WoW has more oneshot mechanics)

  5. #5
    Watch what'll be like in a couple seasons. Give it time. I wasn't able to do it in s2, 3 last expansion but by season 4 it was a joke and anyone could do it.

    If you want it now, you need a coordinated team that works well together. Build one. If you can express yourself that well about a system, surely you can get a few people banded together for one common goal. REMOVE the random aspect of you achieving it, and recruit people you'll run with everytime.

  6. #6
    Scarab Lord
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    1. the gear was simply better in BfA. WF/TF in Seasons 1-3, Corrupted Gear in Season 4. There was also more gear to go around, BfA seasons had higher ilvl gear - you could get mythic raid ilvl gear in the end of dungeon chest by doing a +12. SL season 1 you have to do a +14 just to get a mythic raid ilvl piece from the Great Vault.

    2. familiarity of the dungeon - season 4 of BfA we were doing the same dungeons for about a year and a half. sure, the 4th affix changed things slightly but honestly the basic routes were already done. Sure, you could argue that most experienced groups already know what they're doing in SL dungeons but 4 months experience vs 18 months experience is a big difference

  7. #7
    Obviously there is a big difference between the first and the last season of an xpac. Things get changed, dungeon issues get fixed and nerfed, different spec start to shine with the increase of stats and generally over time the player power grows more than the mobs'. And don't forget that compared to BFA we are still loot starved.

    And don't forget the big issue why it's much harder to get a m+15 key this season is that for the max vault reward you "just" have to complete a +14, so the demand for completing a +15 is much lower than it was in bfa, so you remove the random guild groups that just want it done for the week and look for their 5th player and "accidentally" make it in time.

  8. #8
    Blizzard's aim with this design here is that players should do the dungeons perfectly. If you can't do it perfectly then you should do a key below.

    So basically this time around they've designed all these dungeons with perfection in mind. Mistakes, even minor ones, are supposed to really punish you. Timers are much tighter, corridors where skips are possible are much narrower, mobs are packed closer together, their damage is much much deadlier etc etc.

    It isn't a tuning issue as others have pointed out here. It is working as intended.


    (Not saying that I like any of this though)

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    I have JUST timed a +14 ToP (we've had a little under a minute left), which is boss, and not trash heavy, with a
    222 destro - 4.5k
    222 enha - 4.2k
    219 bm - 3.8k
    216 prot pala
    217 disc

    We've had 11 deaths, almost everything was a one-shot, like, we got hit by 34k bone spears + a tick of grievious and you're done.
    Ofc we could have been played better, but come on, I thought that Ion hates the top 1% and designs this to cater to the other 99%, I want my free 3-chests, easy and fun runs.

    If I want one-shot mechanics I will play flappy bird, cuphead, dead cells, nioh or something like that, thanks (but even, those games are labelled as BRUTAL, still, WoW has more oneshot mechanics)
    To be honest this dps is trash for 219-222 ilvl. It's as if you did a +14 with 3 200-205 dps. I overtimed a +15 NW yesterday by 34 seconds while we had more than 30 deaths. Some dungeons are way more generous with mistakes.
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2021-03-19 at 10:18 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Squigglyo View Post
    In the last season I decided to get KSM.

    I tried on my warlock, but was either never invited or kicked instantly from most high keys simply for being a warlock.
    Tried my own keys, but failing once or twice and then having to build back up to fail again was a real deal breaker.

    I rolled a DH dps. Geared it up and pugged KSM fairly easily.
    Every run was either good or immeditatly bad (and easy to leave from).
    I was able to build up from +10, to +11, +12, +13, +14 and then got into +15.
    I waited 5 weeks for the right rotation to get +15 in TD, that was the pug killed on most affixes.


    This time in SL, i tried again with my lock, same deal. So rolled a Hunter, figured it and/or Mage was meta, and I would get invites.
    Getting invited to groups was not an issue until I got to groups doing +14 or +15. I might get invited 1 in every 50 i apply for.
    I have timed 1 +14 out of the 70 ive run.
    i have cleared every dungeon on +13, with 1 +14 by pugging.


    Is there something different this time around?
    Is it cause im comparing the last season of an expansion with the first of this?
    Did corruptions make things much easier?
    Were the dungeons just much more forgiving?
    Is the vault killing it by making +14s a breeding grounds for inexperienced pugs?


    Ive found some of these dungeons to be very heavy on trash before you see the first boss, making it hard to gauge how good a group is until your well into the dungeon.
    Ive found there are so many bosses this time around that have 1-hit kill mechanics.
    Ive found that trash seems to have so many more abilities this time around.
    Ive found that this time around, without WF/TF I have no need to run lower keys, ever. The only loot I would want comes from +14 or higher.
    Ive found that with there being no benefit other than speed, lower keys are of no use to me whatsoever.


    What is the thing that is making KSM this time around so much more of a nightmare than last time?
    Is it that since theres no need to run lower keys, many people are aiming higher despite their lack of experience? I figure in BFA you could get experience and be happy running lower keys because of WF/TF (plenty of carries for low keys in WM for example every week, im guessing some tank/healer trinket dropped there)
    If I can figure out what it is, i can maybe figure out a workaround, as is, the ONLY way im seeing clears +14 or higher is with my guild, whereas BFA pugging them was not an issue.
    the answer is very simple. m+ were a bit easier in BfA due to azerite / hearth of azeroth and TF .

    still the completion ratio of KSM was atrocious bad untill 8.3 when people coudl get 470 itlv gear from visions with bis corruptions and eventually just buy bis corruptions.

    only then completion ratio jumped up

    now they are back to where they always were.

    thas why you have such problems to get into 14-15.

    what would help immensly would be allowing to wear 2nd legendary in 9.0.5 - but it didnt happen .

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    To be honest this dps is trash for 219-222 ilvl. It's as if you did a +14 with 3 200-205 dps.
    and this is what is wrong with wow nowadays also

    the delta of variation of possible dps from top 5% and majority of playerbase is beyond crazy .

    most wow players simply do not play at this level and yet game is catered only to this level of gameplay

    thats why majority just throws the towel and give up and plays other games

    wow is just to hard and to overtuned for your average player

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    To be honest this dps is trash for 219-222 ilvl. It's as if you did a +14 with 3 200-205 dps.
    Agreeing with you. This is kinda bad dps, as even my 197 Boomie would surpass everyone of them.

    Whenever you think that timers or mechanics are tuned "to hard" - people are clearing 25s in time with ~225.. Meaning, just 3 ilvl more than the enhancer and destro. Struggling in a 14 with this gear is absolutely bad.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    wow is just to hard and to overtuned for your average player
    There is nothing overtuned, people should just do more than hitting their head onto the keyboard. Reading up a spec does not take more than 15 minutes, at all - dodging mechanics is pretty much a standard thing - if one can't dodge or play their character, they are simply not meant to play this content. Just because it is available doesn't mean it's meant for every player.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Squigglyo View Post
    I have timed 1 +14 out of the 70 ive run.
    Holy crap... you have some patience.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    To be honest this dps is trash for 219-222 ilvl. It's as if you did a +14 with 3 200-205 dps. I overtimed a +15 NW yesterday by 34 seconds while we had more than 30 deaths. Some dungeons are way more generous with mistakes.
    Those DPS numbers are absolutely on par with comparable groups and would easily make the dungeon in time. I don't know why people always come up with some fantasy burst dps numbers.

    Just compare some <37 minute logs from https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/re...s=0&duration=0

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Holy crap... you have some patience.
    If someone times 1 key in 70 tries, we know the common denominator of all the failures unless he had the worst chance ever.
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2021-03-19 at 10:33 AM.

  15. #15
    1 similarity; their both shit systems. Yikes

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    Those DPS numbers are absolutely on par with comparable groups and would easily make the dungeon in time. I don't know why people always come up with some fantasy burst dps numbers.

    Just compare some <37 minute logs from https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/re...s=0&duration=0
    These DPS numbers are enough to make the dungeon in time. However they are definitely not on par with what they should do with 220+ ilvl and with 5 prideful buffs.

  17. #17
    It is my impression that the Dungeons are tuned differently and I think I see a system there.

    Blizzard nerfed AOE damage with the Target cap, but I think they also tuned Tanks down (or dungeon trash up) so they can't survive too big pulls. The second change wasn't really noticeable in patchnotes until Tanks went into dungeons and were ripped to shreds.

    They realized a few month into the expansion that they overdid it a bit, and scaled some mobs down again, but I think the intention was to discourage huge pulls and create a more "pull by pull" Meta.

    Sadly they failed and just created the Kite-Meta where Timers can only be completed with huge pulls but Tanks still can't survive those and are thus forced to run away instead of actually Tanking.
    Which btw (for those wondering) is why DH are the Meta Tanks, not because they have more survivability but because they can RUN AWAY better then any other class and it is also why DKs are bottom tier Tanks, because running away is their worst skill.

    In the end Dungeons ended up being a very stressful place for Tanks and the Healers that have to keep them alive somehow. I got my KSM, because I have some good folks to play with, but I honestly hope next season will have some changes that make Dungeon Tanking more fun.

  18. #18
    Here are my guesses:
    1. More people participating - in Legion there were quite few, now there's more; Vault is more of an incentive as well - you used to need one key, now at least 4 would be nice
    2. More pug-experienced players - now people are all bent on being meta, cause they know that is how you get picked
    3. Less tanks - tanking isn't exactly fun this time around so maybe there's less tanks; trash hits super hard, needed several nerfs, routes need perfect execution from tank as well; if you mess up a pride you mess up the whole dungeon
    4. More people pushing - because of Keystone Master being needed for both gear upgrades and mount, more people are trying to get 15s done; mount was only a thing in the last season, so people weren't trying all that much, only did the minimum required key for weekly chest for the rest of the seasons. And in the last season, people were super overgearing, as it usually happens at the end of the expansion.

    I mean overall it all boils down to: more competition for dpses.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    I have JUST timed a +14 ToP (we've had a little under a minute left), which is boss, and not trash heavy, with a
    222 destro - 4.5k
    222 enha - 4.2k
    219 bm - 3.8k
    216 prot pala
    217 disc

    We've had 11 deaths, almost everything was a one-shot, like, we got hit by 34k bone spears + a tick of grievious and you're done.
    Damage is very bad for those ilvls bone spear cast is long.
    Prot pala alone can do 3 interrupts and a stun in 4 globals plus fear undead, if you are lucky on procs you can do even more. (I play prot pala)
    Shaman has shortest interrupt CDs in-game - 12sec, plus two stuns as enhancement
    BM has interrupt and stun
    Destro has stun and fear and interrupt pet (not sure if viable currently)
    Disc has knock, shackle, fear and maybe (?) stun, not very familiar with it tbh.

    I mean you had so many tools to deal with it...
    WoW is not overtunned, it just has more difficulties available, but just because something exist, it does not mean that it is for everyone. I bet there will be people who will thing TBC raids/Dungeons are overtuned.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    These DPS numbers are enough to make the dungeon in time. However they are definitely not on par with what they should do with 220+ ilvl and with 5 prideful buffs.
    They absolutely are. Actually they are so good that they can be doubted in the first place:
    Destruction Warlock current affixes dps ToP
    Enhancment
    BM
    Last edited by Puri; 2021-03-19 at 10:48 AM.

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