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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    If you are casual, I have quick tip for you - when next expansion will be full of grinds (that give regular people something to do, but will be hell for min-maxers) and crazy stuff like titanforging or Legion legendaries - DON"T listen to Bellurar, Asmongold, Preach. They played huge part in pointing Blizzard towards current direction. It's disgusting if they call SL "soulless" now.
    It would help the game a lot if people would actually care more about streamers that actually play the game beyond average instead of giving the drama content streamers so much attention.

    I like the game a bit more if there is more to do and the participation and active playerbase mid-content in LEGION showed that a big part of the community was playing the game more and in the end for any MMO, thats all there is. It doesnt matter if the content is 10/10, if the balance is 10/10, the only thing that matters if people actually play the game.

    I enjoy the game either way, its still better as anything else on the market and if there is a low maintenance expansion, who cares I can just add some old content achievements or reputation grind to the mix.
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  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Violent View Post
    You're not going to find a sever with ZERO people on it, Why do you think Blizzard has been merging realms for the last 4 years??
    That's right, to make it a GRAND illusion that there isn't 8 Million wow players anymore.

    "My server is connected with 5 others servers, but IN MY OPINOIN, it's not dying at all, just look at all these players!"

    So they mash you all in one place and you think the world is "BRIMMING" with players, huh?
    Some of you people are so deluded, it's not even fun trying to discuss anything with you. Because you just "don't" get it.
    Your a fool i have a hard time finding people out of my server i hate the people who play on it i wish it was Other servers.thrall has always been a huge server wtf are you talking about here fool!
    Last edited by Lurker1; 2021-03-22 at 04:38 PM.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    This is exactly what happened to my friends list in classic.

    Exploded for the first few months, then everyone was gone.
    Yeah, and? That might be for very different reasons than why people quit retail. Leveling is probably a big hurdle in classic, while thats a non issue in retail.

  4. #384
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Yeah, I getcha. The issue is that SL's not a filler expansion. Lore-wise, it's arguably the most important WoW expansion next to Legion, and arguably more-so than Wrath.

    - - - Updated - - -

    So, them pulling a WoD here would be fucking weird.
    They pulling a WoD was weird there as well. These things are rarely planned. I mean storywise it was important. It set up the return of the Legion in full force. What Blizzard didn't realize, I think, is that people were already sick to death of orcish drama as that was Cata and MoP already. And with the WarCraft movie released, nobody who cared about the lore needed a refresher of who the more important clan leaders were. So when they saw how people didn't much care for the basic premise, they decided to wrap it up ASAP and focus on Legion, the fanservice expansion.

  5. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    It might also be that as a nation Japan actually acted swiftly and responsibly to covid early allowing for a swift transition. While the US early reaction was criminal.

    As with communication to the player base I have seen both Yoshi and the wow dev teams point out similar things but get different responses. Yoshi pretty much telling people to take breaks cause the game will always be there gets praise. Wow dev saying they make the game based around players taking breaks got them panned.

    Yoshi points out that with the stat squish farming old stuff will be difficult people are OK with mostly. Blizz state it and they're attacked for even doing a squish and things being more difficult. So while people in ffxiv are OK with Yoshi stat squish response meaning he won't have to find ways to fix it. Wow dev team has to find ways to fix it because "getting gear to help" was treated as an insult. Even though in the end it was the same response.
    Part of that is he's very open with potential megatives while blizz devs keep saying shit like "things won't change don't worry"

    Also running old contents not as big in ffxiv..not solo at least since you can just que for any old content no matter your level

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    BFA and Legion 4 months in I recall still being very packed and tons of players on. But Shadowlands feels different now.

    Plus wasn't 7.1 and 8.1 patches both released already by this time in both those expansions?
    Legion was packed, BFA was dead.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    It did happen, but got masked by how many new subs it kept getting.

    Which is why when they posted the stats in Cata that WoW had over 100 million players over its life but only 12 million max concurrent players.

    WoW bled players hard, and eventually you ran out of new ones. And the Asian payment model of “pay per hour and count of a sub didn’t hurt.”

    WoW is in the end phases of the product lifecycle graph where the population is low. We get some spikes in expansion releases, and a little on patches, due to some hype and players getting nostalgic for when they used to play and enjoy WoW.

    Also, is an MMO (or any game) expected to be more popular the longer it goes? 16 years? 20? 40?
    WOW is such an oddball in the industry that it's impossible to say. Other MMOs have come and gone even ones that had big money behind them like SWTOR - it's still alive, but some said it had a $150M budget (like Avengers??) yet it was pretty much a big flop. Blizz seems to be pushing for an "expansion" every year to keep people subbed with classic TBC on the way 2 years after Classic Vanilla. You can easily see what the cycle will likely look like - WOTLK was largely one of the best expansions in the game, so I can't imagine they'll stop at TBC.

    So by having Retail vs. Nostalgia available, people can pop between the two and stay busy. Based on that, it looks like WOW will be around at least until the 20 year mark. We keep thinking a new "wow killer" will come along, and they never do - despite wow being like you said probably in its lowest population ever. Yet they're still pushing new expansions and re-makes of old expansions. I kinda feel like they won't do classic cataclysm though...
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  8. #388
    U must not play on area 52.... That server is a CLUSTER....i log in and autioneers dont even load and takes me 10 mins to get out of the AH, and its not my computer either

  9. #389
    Herald of the Titans Violent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker1 View Post
    Your a fool i have a hard time finding people out of my server i hate the people who play on it i wish it was Other servers.thrall has always been a huge server wtf are you talking about here fool!
    Wtf are you talking about? In one post you say it's not "dying" at all, and that every server is FILLED with people (Your reasoning on why its not dying)
    Then you say "I have a hard time finding people."

    You can't have it both ways, there Bud.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker1 View Post
    That is not what im seeing on my server at all on thrall packed if anything to many people still playing its annoying when i get ques on it sometimes as well.

    Which one is it?? Stick to lurking kiddo.
    Last edited by Violent; 2021-03-22 at 05:38 PM.
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  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Varaben View Post
    I think they though that Torghast was going to be "unlimited content" and that on top of callings, pvp/pve weekly/daily quests, and the normal PVE/PVP content that it would keep people interested. But there's too many problems to list in the current game, and it's no surprise so many people have quit. It's pretty normal for the new expansion to bring a lot of players in then it slows patch to patch...but it doesn't have to be like that. This never happened in older expansions (pre Cata), so it's hard to say if it's just a sign of the times (way more competition now for example) or is a reflection of the game itself.
    The problem with Torghast is that they basically copied rifts from Diablo 3. It's no surprise that over the years, Blizzard has taken a lot of game designs and systems from Diablo 3 into WoW like adventure mode, callings, emissaries, legendaries, etc. The problem with Torghast is that its not designed for a MMO. It feels slow, clunky and terrible. There is no real need to want to run Torghast. Now if it dropped guaranteed gear at the end of each run it would go some ways to making people want to run it.

    Blizzard's challenge is that they fail to innovate and put way too much focus on raids and end game competitive game play. It makes sense as a developer to control how people play since that way it helps in better predicting patterns and developers love patterns. Helps them stay ahead and better manage plans but at the same time it's terrible for the player base cause players don't want to play how the developers want them to play. You see more and freedom being taken out of the game and put into the hands of developers cause developers can't control an open game. It seems more than ever over the last few expansions. The developers have been micromanaging everything and that's pretty obvious with the state of the game from how loot is distributed like personal loot to gate keeping, lockouts, etc. Its suddenly become a single player experience even though you are playing with others.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    The problems with these statments of Blizzard's workfow is the same as with things like your horoscope. They are vague rubbish you say, because they are technically true for everyone and sound good, because someone is always spinning some ideas early in a dev team, but the overall production beginns way later. This is an almost univeral truth in all jobs where you can claim something like a development process (at least from the PoV of project management), be it a software or hardware product.

    The recent beta phases have shown that Blizzard's workflow is way more short term than what people would think by the statments you mentioned, which btw have been stated years ago when the team was a different one. You also can't really develop another expansion in parallel with the exception of some concepts (concept art) and universal components (art assets), because the direction of the current expansion is clearly trial and error systems wise and we've seen Blizzard even admit that they react to the role of certain characters according to feedback. It would be simply pointless to spin the next expansion's changes when they completely contradict what the current design team is doing for the current expansion.

    WoD was alot of things. Blizzard saw subscriptions skyrocket by almost 3 million after it went down alot throughout MoP. But that didn't last apparently and Blizzard realized that the expansion wasn't capturing people as much as they thought (imho it was a badly timed movie tie-in that backfired). One major patch (!) was a bit of social media integration for example. Blizzard went all out with the development for Legion, but like everytime Blizzard does that, they need to practically abandon the current expansion because their resources are alot more limited than we acknowledge. The content draught at the end of every expansion is the result of these limited resources. They might have had more content planned, like the Island to the north that was often talked about, but at the end of the day Blizzard delivered the minimum for raiding focused on the next expansion.
    I get what you are trying to say. For example its well acknowledged that The Burning Crusade was way ahead in development even before the launch of Classic which is how they were able to release it so quickly. I mean most game development schedule last from anywhere between 3-4 years on normal size game. However, WoW is able to put out whole continents, regions and content within 2 years. That takes a lot of work which would be impossible to work on within 12 months. They probably have a big team and multiple teams working on different projects.

    Now am sure they do make some changes to character arcs etc based on a players' feedbacks etc but I think the overall theme or idea won't change much. I think what I say is true cause you look at the similarities between Legion, BFA and SL. They all share similar game design systems and Blizzard thought they could get away with that. During Legion it felt fresh and new but it hasn't changed much in the last 2 expansions. They've made small tweaks here and there. Every previous expansion brought about something new and different before that however, the game has largely stayed stagnant in the last 3 expansions.

    Take characters for example. People have been somewhat bored of Anduin for sometime now, yet they keep pushing him. Most likely cause they've already written his fate and set in motion his journey many years ago.

    WOD got a lot of returning old players because it was supposed to be a return to "old WoW" with Old Heroes from the lore and the RTS games who had never showed up in the MMO before. These were characters spoken about in WoW lore but not someone the players got to see. That was the whole marketing behind WoD from what I followed back then. The WOW movie was bad timing but it had nothing to do with the game itself. The movie was just bad, horribly bad and rushed. It felt like a movie made for WoW fans rather than a larger audience. They just threw all these characters at you, the pacing was off, the acting was terrible and the writing even worse. That didn't help but WoW was still popular considering Legion launched after WOD and the movie.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by NordWitcher View Post
    The problem with Torghast is that they basically copied rifts from Diablo 3. It's no surprise that over the years, Blizzard has taken a lot of game designs and systems from Diablo 3 into WoW like adventure mode, callings, emissaries, legendaries, etc. The problem with Torghast is that its not designed for a MMO. It feels slow, clunky and terrible. There is no real need to want to run Torghast. Now if it dropped guaranteed gear at the end of each run it would go some ways to making people want to run it.

    Blizzard's challenge is that they fail to innovate and put way too much focus on raids and end game competitive game play. It makes sense as a developer to control how people play since that way it helps in better predicting patterns and developers love patterns. Helps them stay ahead and better manage plans but at the same time it's terrible for the player base cause players don't want to play how the developers want them to play. You see more and freedom being taken out of the game and put into the hands of developers cause developers can't control an open game. It seems more than ever over the last few expansions. The developers have been micromanaging everything and that's pretty obvious with the state of the game from how loot is distributed like personal loot to gate keeping, lockouts, etc. Its suddenly become a single player experience even though you are playing with others.
    Copying Diablo 3 isn't the best idea because it was mostly a forgettable game. The Idea of adventure mode is fun in WoW, until you realize all there is to do is world quests (Don't we do those enough on max levels?).

    Torghast feels like a missed opportunity to allow players to farm anima to their hearts content. The bottleneck for Anima is atrocious.

  12. #392
    Titan Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cozzri View Post
    Copying Diablo 3 isn't the best idea because it was mostly a forgettable game. The Idea of adventure mode is fun in WoW, until you realize all there is to do is world quests (Don't we do those enough on max levels?).

    Torghast feels like a missed opportunity to allow players to farm anima to their hearts content. The bottleneck for Anima is atrocious.
    And the favt they missed one of the most fun parts of a roguelite...being OP as f if you last long enough with potentially crazy gonzo powers..which they apparently had in alpha but removed for some asinine reason

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by NordWitcher View Post
    The problem with Torghast is that they basically copied rifts from Diablo 3. It's no surprise that over the years, Blizzard has taken a lot of game designs and systems from Diablo 3 into WoW like adventure mode, callings, emissaries, legendaries, etc. The problem with Torghast is that its not designed for a MMO. It feels slow, clunky and terrible. There is no real need to want to run Torghast. Now if it dropped guaranteed gear at the end of each run it would go some ways to making people want to run it.

    Blizzard's challenge is that they fail to innovate and put way too much focus on raids and end game competitive game play. It makes sense as a developer to control how people play since that way it helps in better predicting patterns and developers love patterns. Helps them stay ahead and better manage plans but at the same time it's terrible for the player base cause players don't want to play how the developers want them to play. You see more and freedom being taken out of the game and put into the hands of developers cause developers can't control an open game. It seems more than ever over the last few expansions. The developers have been micromanaging everything and that's pretty obvious with the state of the game from how loot is distributed like personal loot to gate keeping, lockouts, etc. Its suddenly become a single player experience even though you are playing with others.
    I don't get why they didn't put valor at the end of Torghast. You can either run a M+ to get valor (which you can spam) or you can do torghast and get some (which you can only get twice a week anyway). It's inherently restricting the amount you get and it would give you a reason to run torghast after you finished your legendary. Seems like an easy solution they could have put into the game when they introduced valor. If you're already doing Torghast it passively increases your valor income and it doesn't actually give you any gear. You'd still have to do M+ to actually pick up gear pieces.

    I understand why they didn't - they don't like to double dip on currency (though in PVP they do...), and make you feel like you "have" to do Torghast...But they already want us to do Torghast right? Just seems like an easy solution.
    Last edited by Varaben; 2021-03-22 at 06:49 PM.
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  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by LauraHydra1 View Post
    COVID probably isn't helping, either. Game design is mostly collaborative, and that is a lot harder when everybody is at home and can only communicate through (video) calls. It already delayed the launch of Shadowlands, and will probably affect the patch as well.
    Though to be fair, we're only about three months into the current raid tier. Even in normal times, I wouldn't expect the next raid+associated content for another three months at least.
    Another way in which COVID is probably affecting our perception is that as players, we have a lot more free time now, so we go through content faster. Working from home cuts commute times, and many hobbies are hard or impossible with the social distancing restrictions. I know several people who only started playing again because of the pandemic.
    Here is the problem with the "covid" argument, ALL other game companies are still makeing content, PoE going at it strong, Warframe, Genshin impact, Fortnight.
    and somehow only blizzard been completyl stuck in the ground by it?
    sure covid is not helping, But other companies ARE makeing things

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanegasi View Post
    A non-English EU server is much smaller than NA megaservers. You are not on a "populated" server. I am on one of those NA megaservers. Oribos is packed at all times of the day.

    Yeah, but you can not really take that as an indication. If the population is decimated in any other language than English you can not really argue that the population is in a healthy spot.
    Sure, I mean we can all just migrate to one European mega server at some point, I'm not denying there would be enough players for hat, but what does this REALLY say about the state of the game?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cozzri View Post
    Copying Diablo 3 isn't the best idea because it was mostly a forgettable game. The Idea of adventure mode is fun in WoW, until you realize all there is to do is world quests (Don't we do those enough on max levels?).

    Torghast feels like a missed opportunity to allow players to farm anima to their hearts content. The bottleneck for Anima is atrocious.
    The problem is also that anima is not really something thats really motivating to get.
    Sure, there are like 1-2 cosmetics that are interestinf but beyond that...

    Why grind something that feels really worthless in the first place?

  16. #396
    There is a reason Blizzard offers in game mounts and rewards if you sub 6 months at time. They understand that most people drop out 3 - 4 months after a patch or expansion and only come back if there is something new and interesting for them to do. Grinding M+ for upgradeable versions of items you already have and then all of the valor to upgrade them is apparently not enough to keep folks coming back in to the game. My guild (on Illidan) is mostly empty these days too. Pretty much fell off a cliff a few days after 9.0.5 hit.

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    And the favt they missed one of the most fun parts of a roguelite...being OP as f if you last long enough with potentially crazy gonzo powers..which they apparently had in alpha but removed for some asinine reason
    They didn't want people to fail it because they tied it to legendary progression was the stated reason. Their own systems shot themselves in the foot again.

  18. #398
    Curious, do Blizz people read this forum just to gauge feedback on thier game?

  19. #399
    Because everyone is done with rep grinds and covenant levels, add on Nathria being a boring raid, people are just waiting on the next content patch.

  20. #400
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Lighter View Post
    They didn't want people to fail it because they tied it to legendary progression was the stated reason. Their own systems shot themselves in the foot again.
    Maybe they knew all too well that no one would bother with the PoS that is Torghast if Soul Ash was available somewhere else, e.g. a guaranteed reasonable amount after completing a dungeon, killing a raid boss (regardless of difficulty), or even world quests/callings.

    They evidently "corrected" the mistake they did at BfA, where you could reasonably level up your HoA even if you never touched those goddamn island expeditions. Imagine what BfA would have been like if the only place to level your neck had been dem islands - well, that's pretty much the same thing with legendaries and Torghast now.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

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