Is Sylvanas the most evil character ever in WoW or just misunderstood?

[TheFirstOnes]

don't forget that there had to be some very blatant retconning for inner monologues from post Icecrown motivations during the cataclysm era.

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And that has what at all to do with the fact that council has no good characters to sit on it and represent the horde?

The best horde rep that's gonna wind up on it was a steamwheedle cartel trade prince... and that's not a horde faction

What do you mean? The characters there represent the Horde just fine?

[Le Conceptuel]

don't forget that there had to be some very blatant retconning for inner monologues from post Icecrown motivations during the cataclysm era.

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And that has what at all to do with the fact that council has no good characters to sit on it and represent the horde?

The best horde rep that's gonna wind up on it was a steamwheedle cartel trade prince... and that's not a horde faction

What about Lor'Themar? He's an Elf, but he's probably one of its best leaders. Not to mention Thrall is also present there.

[mickybrighteyes]

What about Lor'Themar? He's an Elf, but he's probably one of its best leaders. Not to mention Thrall is also present there.

Theron is the only one left worth a damn. The problem from the audience perspective is largely that he is an elf and the Horde identity doesn't mesh with the appearance of the fair elves.

thrall has problems with the fact that he bailed back in Wrath and virtually all the major problems the horde has had since it's inception is largely due to his actions either because he chose to settle in a very unoptimal area for growth or... well.. Garrosh.... also his main story was that he left to go bang his orc wife and.... we don't talk about what happened there since they made that mess non-canon... and then he just shows up again like we're supposed to be happy Green Jesus is back.

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What do you mean? The characters there represent the Horde just fine?

I disagree... here are the current leadership roles at the end of BFA
OG races
Orcs: says thrall... but Thrall hasn't been horde since he propped up Garry and left to go bang his orc wife for a storyline that no longer exists.
Tauren: Baine.... alliance pet in every storyline
Darkspear: I think they pushed Rokhan here but there's not really any other named darkspear besides him and Zappy Boi
Forsaken: Voss/Calia... one was explicitely NOT forsaken for the bulk of her storyline and the other is a literal alliance princess

Later Allies
Blood Elves: Theron... the longest lasting horde leader to actually stay horde He has more tenure in the horde than fucking green jesus himself.
Bilgewater Cartel: A Steemwheedle Cartel (i.e. neutral faction leader) Trade Prince.
Pandaren: Ji hasn't really done much

Allied races
Mag'har: Not-Thrall
Zandalari: Talanji (really should be ruling a faction of her own by now)
Nightborn: First Arcanist and Theron's GF
HMT: Baine's GF

[TheFirstOnes]

Theron is the only one left worth a damn. The problem from the audience perspective is largely that he is an elf and the Horde identity doesn't mesh with the appearance of the fair elves.

thrall has problems with the fact that he bailed back in Wrath and virtually all the major problems the horde has had since it's inception is largely due to his actions either because he chose to settle in a very unoptimal area for growth or... well.. Garrosh.... also his main story was that he left to go bang his orc wife and.... we don't talk about what happened there since they made that mess non-canon... and then he just shows up again like we're supposed to be happy Green Jesus is back.

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I disagree... here are the current leadership roles at the end of BFA
OG races
Orcs: says thrall... but Thrall hasn't been horde since he propped up Garry and left to go bang his orc wife for a storyline that no longer exists.
Tauren: Baine.... alliance pet in every storyline
Darkspear: I think they pushed Rokhan here but there's not really any other named darkspear besides him and Zappy Boi
Forsaken: Voss/Calia... one was explicitely NOT forsaken for the bulk of her storyline and the other is a literal alliance princess

Later Allies
Blood Elves: Theron... the longest lasting horde leader to actually stay horde He has more tenure in the horde than fucking green jesus himself.
Bilgewater Cartel: A Steemwheedle Cartel (i.e. neutral faction leader) Trade Prince.
Pandaren: Ji hasn't really done much

Allied races
Mag'har: Not-Thrall
Zandalari: Talanji (really should be ruling a faction of her own by now)
Nightborn: First Arcanist and Theron's GF
HMT: Baine's GF

While I would agree on any normal circumstance, here's what the Alliance has.

Alliance leadership:

Anduin- Is the Jailer's vessel

Jaina- Depressed, and is the only actual leader that can do shit.

Genn- A shitty ruler with a history of horrible, brash choices.

Velen- Retired.

Geblin- Wasn't he an ice cube throughout most of BFA (From 8.1 to 8.3)?

Malfurion- Trying to rebuild with the rest of the poor Night Elves that got fucked

Tyrande- The biggest bitch in the 7 seas that's finally doing shit...ironically in an Illidan styled manner.

Aysa: I won't lie, I forgot about her existence till now.

The Council of 3 Hammers: They don't care to lead, but I'd argue they're also suitable leaders, ngl.

Turalyon: Loves the Light a lil too much, was a zealot before Illidan caught his supposedly powerful blade with 1 hand (And he did this AFTER being weakened a bit from killing Xe'ra), and...well...Lothraxion's right there. Fuck.

As for the Allied Races:

Alleria- Going insane rn, with the Void Lords essentially laughing at her.

Moira- Part of the Council of 3 Hammers. She's ok.

That Mechagnome prince: Kind of a joke, but has lots of tech.

The Lightforged Draenei girl: About as much of a zealot as Turalyon.

[mickybrighteyes]

While I would agree on any normal circumstance, here's what the Alliance has.

Alliance leadership:

Anduin- Is the Jailer's vessel

Jaina- Depressed, and is the only actual leader that can do shit.

Genn- A shitty ruler with a history of horrible, brash choices.

Velen- Retired.

Geblin- Wasn't he an ice cube throughout most of BFA (From 8.1 to 8.3)?

Malfurion- Trying to rebuild with the rest of the poor Night Elves that got fucked

Tyrande- The biggest bitch in the 7 seas that's finally doing shit...ironically in an Illidan styled manner.

Aysa: I won't lie, I forgot about her existence till now.

The Council of 3 Hammers: They don't care to lead, but I'd argue they're also suitable leaders, ngl.

Turalyon: Loves the Light a lil too much, was a zealot before Illidan caught his supposedly powerful blade with 1 hand (And he did this AFTER being weakened a bit from killing Xe'ra), and...well...Lothraxion's right there. Fuck.

As for the Allied Races:

Alleria- Going insane rn, with the Void Lords essentially laughing at her.

Moira- Part of the Council of 3 Hammers. She's ok.

That Mechagnome prince: Kind of a joke, but has lots of tech.

The Lightforged Draenei girl: About as much of a zealot as Turalyon.

the alliance has always been a human empire with Stormwind at the helm. Thing is there has been no villain troping, killing off, or removal of any leadership positions since their introductions. You might not like some of the characters but we don't have the entire storyline and devs telling us the alliance leadership is wrong, bad and in need of changing as they shuffle the game board every two expansions.

edit:

the only leaders to really swap around alliance side are Magni and varian. in 15+ years. Meanwhile look at the horde roster.... Theron. Theron is the only constant and he's not even a horde faction original.

[TheFirstOnes]

the alliance has always been a human empire with Stormwind at the helm. Thing is there has been no villain troping, killing off, or removal of any leadership positions since their introductions. You might not like some of the characters but we don't have the entire storyline and devs telling us the alliance leadership is wrong, bad and in need of changing as they shuffle the game board every two expansions.

"bad and in need of changing as they shuffle the game board every two expansions." I guess? But Genn and Turalyon are not the...best choices to put in leadership.

Also, VARIAN FUCKIN DIED BRUH! D: WHAT DO YOU MEAN "no killing off of any leadership positions"?

[mickybrighteyes]

"bad and in need of changing as they shuffle the game board every two expansions." I guess? But Genn and Turalyon are not the...best choices to put in leadership.

Also, VARIAN FUCKIN DIED BRUH! D: WHAT DO YOU MEAN "no killing off of any leadership positions"?

should have waited a couple seconds. the latter part you're talking about has an edit fast than you could post.

fact remains we don't have the storyline beating us over the head about how bad Genn, Tyrande, Jaina, etc are... they are praised or held in high regard in almost every storyline or we're distracted to how bad the current horde figure is and how that is more important to discuss.

We don't see alliance storylines where random no names suddenly jump in as leadership to fill empty spaces that didn't exist. We don't see horde figures slammed into running alliance factions

edit:

also ONE alliance actual leader died and they didn't do them the disservice of retconning all their good work and make them into a one dimensional villain for the sake of hammering home how bad the faction as a whole can be.

[RangerDaz]

I want a 4th option for the poll: Dont know / dont care.

Really, i dont care how evil she is, because the whole story around her has become an embarrassing joke.

Every wow character is retconned in every expansion to serve the interests of that expansion, even if that means to rewrite the previous events.

[Ardenaso]

SHE IS LITERALLY WORSE THAN GARROSH!

Garrosh tortured civilians including women and children to death and/or made them fight each other for pleasure, Sylvanas didn't

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Also, VARIAN FUCKIN DIED BRUH! D: WHAT DO YOU MEAN "no killing off of any leadership positions"?

to be fair I'd like to see some Alliance leaders and prominent characters die to somewhat make it fair for the Horde loot pinatas, like Rogers, Jes-tereth, Halford Wyrmbane, Mekkatorque, Shaw, etc.

[TheFirstOnes]

Garrosh tortured civilians including women and children to death and/or made them fight each other for pleasure, Sylvanas didn't

Sylvanas committed mass genocide against the Night Elf people, had the Horde torture Night Elven citizens, is ruling with Warcraft's Satan, and is literally aiding him in trying to conquer all of existence. Garrosh at least kept shit on a global scale, even if it was still fucked. Meanwhile, the Jailer is doing shit in a High Outerversal to Boundless scale.

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Not to mention Sylvanas is essentially commanding the Mawsworn, which literally torture souls and pin them against eachother, or turn souls into armor pieces or Mawsworn guys for a living. Hell, a race of Giants tried to battle the Jailer, and he not only demolished them, but he also made their remains into giant hands for fun. Like...wtf?

[Rozz]

There isn't anything to misunderstand. She's openly spiteful, lonely, resentful, bitter, and hateful. She's a bad person whose war crimes exceed Garrosh's and her actions lack any of the nuance Stratholme had.

Arthas and Illidan were misunderstood and misguided. Sylvanas is just a simple shallow evil. I may have said something different before her post-Cata writing, but this is the character she is now.

[Ardenaso]

had the Horde torture Night Elven citizens

where's this btw, I thought Saurfang and the rest of the Horde allowed civilians to escape the war freely; and ofc that mission table in Azuremyst shouldn't be canon

[TheFirstOnes]

where's this btw, I thought Saurfang and the rest of the Horde allowed civilians to escape the war freely; and ofc that mission table in Azuremyst shouldn't be canon

Saurfang and his troops only took the soldiers and let the innocents go, yes. And at the worst, they merely interrogated the soldiers. But from the Alliance side of things, Night Elves get butchered and things are a lot less "civil".

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"ofc that mission table in Azuremyst shouldn't be canon" What mission table?

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Cause whatever is in the game is canon.

[Ardenaso]

"ofc that mission table in Azuremyst shouldn't be canon" What mission table?

the one where you kill the refugee leader in Azuremyst; well the Hillsbrad concentration camp master is still alive in BFA when he should be dead since Cata so those shouldn't be considered canon

[TheFirstOnes]

the one where you kill the refugee leader in Azuremyst; well the Hillsbrad concentration camp master is still alive in BFA when he should be dead since Cata so those shouldn't be considered canon

Hmmm...I see.

[mickybrighteyes]

Cause whatever is in the game is canon.

stonetalon isn't

[Le Conceptuel]

stonetalon isn't

It was the consequence of miscommunication, but it is canon. Just because something was a bad idea or you don't like it doesn't make it non-canon.

[Arganis]

She’s just miserable. This whole thing about killing hope and being a sadistic witch. It’s all about her suffering because of the monster Arthas turned her into. She’s helping the jailer because she thinks he can help undo her fate. It’s actually a sad story.

Sylvanas is what happen when you take something good and twist it beyond all recognition. Preaching damnation to people like her just makes bad a million times worse.

Some people should just be allowed to find peace. No torment should be forever.

[Diaphin]

We literally see that Sylvanas is genuinely deluded that Jailer is the good guy who will save everyone. That's why she's starting to doubt her path and is visibly confused after her conversation with Anduin the child.

Sylvanas is literally the opposite of what you're proposing, it is the Jailer who is using this gullible banshee. Sylvanas is the opposite of a 1000 IQ tactician, she's the dumbass who is being played like a violin by Totally-Not-Satan.

The funny thing is that Jailer himself isn't even that smart, it's just that with these kids it's too easy.

I mean, at this point it seems like he recruited her through making her believe that if she happens to die, she is destined to end up for all eternity in the Maw, the same place that Arthas ended up in. In that regard her actions seems well understandable. She has nothing to lose and the vision she received shows her an inheritly unfair and hopeless destiny.

[Varodoc]

I mean, at this point it seems like he recruited her through making her believe that if she happens to die, she is destined to end up for all eternity in the Maw, the same place that Arthas ended up in. In that regard her actions seems well understandable. She has nothing to lose and the vision she received shows her an inheritly unfair and hopeless destiny.

Oh I'm not saying her actions aren't understandable -- she is an idiot and I understand that. But let's not act like she's some 1000 IQ mastermind, she's literally just another cog in the machine.