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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    So spending time on something isn't effort, only doing something difficult requires effort? I need to tell that to my boss
    Spending time doing something that requires a brain =/= spending time doing something that doesnt require a brain.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    I hope you mean that sarcastically.
    Doing a +10 isn't even as hard as a normal raid. Also dungeons can be carried by one good player. Have a good tank who calls the shots and that's good enough. In raids and especially in Nathria a single mistake by one player can wipe you, since there are many encounters with personal responsibility.

    Raids universally need more skilled players than m+. That's why I get OP's question. To counter that, M+ drops below heroic gear, which means raids are shortterm the better gear source. Longterm however the weekly upgrade you get from makes you character stronger than would be possible via raids. I simply hoped that valor would also apply to raids, but I guess Blizzard has other plans.
    I'm not being sarcastic.

    M+ once you get to the +10 area fills a niche between heroic and mythic raiding and rewards as such.

    This is borne out with the great vault and the item level to which you can upgrade mythic dungeon gear drops.

    Once you have a good group it can certainly go easier and faster, but the fact is that much of M+ functions in the PuG space where it can be complete luck of the draw. This is to say nothing of folks that leave for whatever reason which can cause a key to deplete - whereas in a raid you can often quickly replace them - that there's far less margin of error since one tank can't help carry the other, you can't just carry a shit healer, you can't just strongarm with 5 good dps carrying the weight of 2 or 3 poor ones.

    The mechanics can be more dynamic - just this past week with spiteful I've seen mages not dropping rings, no binding shot, poor AoE stuns, no slows and people getting trucked because of it.

    Yes if you have a good strong group you can trivialize the content, but that's true for raiding and M+ both. However the tolerances are more narrow in an M+ environment and that's a fact.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    I'm not being sarcastic.
    You should've said that you are being sarcastic, you cant seriously think that the later part of the raid is anything comparable to a meme +10, you just cant.

    edit: to OP, yes rewards should reflect the content you do and how good you are, its basic in every rpg that the greater deeds you do, the better the rewards you get, but wow community nowadays wants to change this to fit their narrative, guess they are new to the rpg genre xd
    Last edited by Frozenbro; 2021-03-21 at 08:49 AM.

  4. #24
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    uhhh what? Mythic+ rewards are absolute garbage right now even with being able to use valor to upgrade them
    At least you can upgrade.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Squigglyo View Post
    While it had its flaws

    Warforged gear solved many of these problems.


    Mythic awarded the 'best' gear. You could go to a mythic raid, and if you get a drop, you know its the 'best'.
    You could do a Heroic raid even though your in full heroic gear, knowing that if your a little lucky, youll get a mythic piece.
    You could do a normal raid in heroic gear, knowing if your even luckier, youll get a mythic piece.

    You could run any key, the easier the key, the more lucky you needed to be.


    You could argue being lucky shouldnt be a factor, that a smarter system could be used to properly match time/effort/content.
    But, there was always a reason to do everything in BFA.
    I had no problem rerunning heroic raids, even though i didnt need the loot, cause I could still get an upgrade.
    I had no problem running lower keys because if I was lucky ide still get an upgrade.

    Now, I have no need to run anything below mythic raiding, and thus dont.
    I have no need to run anything below a +14 key, and I dont.
    I have no need to do World Quests, and outside of the callings, i dont.



    Rewards should match the content you do, but also having a slower way to get there is needed.
    I dont have the time to commit to raiding, thus i dont do mythic raids. i am essentially locked out from gearing up my character now in any way outside of the vault.
    Sure, I dont run the content, thus 'shouldnt' get the best gear. But if it took me 3+ months to get the same gear a mythic raider got in the first month, theres no harm. Its not like people that rely on the vault would ever get into a mythic group anyway.
    Alteast Warforged could reward world players with upgrades too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    You could've used any comparison except world content, cause world content difficulty is trash xd and no doing 500 world quest isnt effort.
    So time =/= effort, you mean?

    Does this mean we should limit pull attempts on raids?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Spending time doing something that requires a brain =/= spending time doing something that doesnt require a brain.
    So, when Mythic+ becomes a trivial feeling, it should reward less?
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    So, when Mythic+ becomes a trivial feeling, it should reward less?
    Yes, same with when it becomes hard, atm its extremely unfair that it still rewards shitty 210 gear when pushing keys over 18, so theres plenty of flaws in the system, but at least blizz is now looking into it with valor addition, you dont get the best sword in an rpg by doing the first main quest dont you?

  6. #26
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Yes, same with when it becomes hard, atm its extremely unfair that it still rewards shitty 210 gear when pushing keys over 18, so theres plenty of flaws in the system, but at least blizz is now looking into it with valor addition, you dont get the best sword in an rpg by doing the first main quest dont you?
    No, but you literally said"Spending time doing something that requires a brain =/= spending time doing something that doesnt require a brain.", so when a Mythic+ becomes less of a challenge, should rewards be reduced then? And who do you scale it after? By Mythic seasons? M+ dropping less/worse gear the older the dungeon is?

    As well, world content isn't the same as doing the first main quest nor is everything brainless, I am not expecting the same levels as raiding or Mythic+ item level, though it would be fairer to still operate some progression in the form of Warforged for World Content, or the ability to upgrade further with Valor. We already get a jokingly low amount of Valor from Callings compared to spamming Mythic+, so there is no threats there.

    And I know people feel intimidated about Warforge having a chance to proc better than some of their gear.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Yes, same with when it becomes hard, atm its extremely unfair that it still rewards shitty 210 gear when pushing keys over 18, so theres plenty of flaws in the system, but at least blizz is now looking into it with valor addition, you dont get the best sword in an rpg by doing the first main quest dont you?
    So if a +2 is really hard for me but trivial for my friend I should get better gear from it than him?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    So if a +2 is really hard for me but trivial for my friend I should get better gear from it than him?
    The relative difficulty that you are coming up with doesnt matter to anyone, in regards to the objective difficulty of the game, when you do a +2 even tho it may seem difficult to you, for the game standards it isnt since rewards scale to +15 for a reason, so as it should the gear from +2s is bad, basic rpg idea.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Rewards should reflect your effort, not your content.

    Being carried through a Mythic raid shouldn't give greater reward than as much effort solo doing world content.
    On that i can agree. Also what content we make to the game actually?
    .

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    No, but you literally said"Spending time doing something that requires a brain =/= spending time doing something that doesnt require a brain.", so when a Mythic+ becomes less of a challenge, should rewards be reduced then? And who do you scale it after? By Mythic seasons? M+ dropping less/worse gear the older the dungeon is?

    As well, world content isn't the same as doing the first main quest nor is everything brainless, I am not expecting the same levels as raiding or Mythic+ item level, though it would be fairer to still operate some progression in the form of Warforged for World Content, or the ability to upgrade further with Valor. We already get a jokingly low amount of Valor from Callings compared to spamming Mythic+, so there is no threats there.

    And I know people feel intimidated about Warforge having a chance to proc better than some of their gear.
    If a mythic+ becomes less of a challenge for you cause you got better or you got better gear, thats good, but the rewards structure is already established and thats why harder content rewards better stuff, and easier content gives the rewards according to its difficulty.

    The issue with the community is that they expect from blizz a compensation for the removal of titanforging, why should they? is the community entitled to having some kind of progression via titanforging or w/e system even tho theres 3 different gear progression paths? i wouldnt honestly mind if they introduce warforging with 10 ilvls as a cap or something, but you guys need to realize that you arent entitled to receive this, nor you can demand it just because it existed in some iteration, the game worked fine with 2 progression paths before, now we have 3 but its still not enough? blizz biggest mistake was introducing titanforging, now the community demands progression by just moving a finger, since thats what titanforging achieved.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Spending time doing something that requires a brain =/= spending time doing something that doesnt require a brain.
    One could argue that Mythic+ consists mostly of following paths predetermined by other players, so "Requires a brain" (Very leading and derogatory, BTW) is up for debate there, too...

    That being said, i don't think solo content should give the same itemlevel gear as group/raid content, but the current situation, where progression (Which is the important part, becoming more powerful over time, the very essence of RPGs) comes to a dead stop after a few weeks of grinding anima, that's far from optimal, too.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    You should've said that you are being sarcastic, you cant seriously think that the later part of the raid is anything comparable to a meme +10, you just cant.
    My raid is 9/10 heroic. I cannot talk our one healer into running M+10 (highest I've been able to get is a +8), because she says it's too hard. There are eight dungeons, versus one raid, with trash that actually matters, and fifteen affixes. That's a lot more to learn, and it changes weekly based on what keys we have and the affixes for the week. Compared to raid, where there are a total of ten fights to learn, M+ asks more of a person on the learning front.

    I think it's also easier to carry someone in a raid than it is in M+. I tank our raid, and I out DPS some of the DPS players. When that happens in a M+, we typically don't time them. That being said, it's typically easier to manage fewer people, so in terms of the organizational effort, M+ seems a lot easier to me.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    One could argue that Mythic+ consists mostly of following paths predetermined by other players, so "Requires a brain" (Very leading and derogatory, BTW) is up for debate there, too...

    That being said, i don't think solo content should give the same itemlevel gear as group/raid content, but the current situation, where progression (Which is the important part, becoming more powerful over time, the very essence of RPGs) comes to a dead stop after a few weeks of grinding anima, that's far from optimal, too.
    I mean, even if you just follow a path, unless you know how to actually play the game, you arent timing a +18 key, so theres that.

    As far as rewards and progression goes, they could maybe add upgrades to the covenant armor up to 207 ilvl or something, thats as far as i would go with it, more than that and you start making mythic+ and then heroic raiding oudated, just like BFA did with m+ vs heroic raiding, where heroic raiding was completely useless compared to spamming mythic +15s until you were better geared than anything heroic could offer you, you cant buff X progression path to the point where Y and Z becomes irrelevant, specially if X progression path is 100000 times easier.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedingleberry View Post
    I think the biggest issue this expansion is that in previous expansions, if you were a raider, you felt accomplishment from gearing by killing raid bosses, but in shadowlands, it's almost always the case where people are always overgearing the raids ahead of time in M+, so the boss kills in raids are way less rewarding. And for people that actually are geared to be progressing in a current raid, you are always feeling way underpowered when your group brings people that are already +15 M+ geared just to kill the boss.

    If blizzard was smart, they would remove the requirement for KSM to upgrade to 220. Just make the amount of valor rewarded at the end go up for higher keys so pushers are still rewarded for their effort. The carrot on a stick of gear upgrades would do better for a larger amount of the game subscribers to not unsub between patches if there was always the continued opportunity for gear upgrading via valor, it just was much slower if you are running lower number keys.

    IMO, the reward from getting KSM should just be the achievement and the mount (both means to have bragging rights).
    Of course this would be great and healthy, asmooth and nice solution for valor, but keep in mind that they want to generate token trades and a free System where things are equal are not helpful when pushing stock prices. So blizz is deeply interested in creating systems that other players use to "work" under the cheapest conditioNs. And yes, every booster is also a worker for blizz.

  15. #35
    Maybe they should, like items rewarded from M+ have a new stat that gives a 1% increase to damage, healing or 1% damage reduction dependingon role while inside a dungeon, raid items provide the bonuses while inside a raid and pvp items while engaged in pvp or when inside instanced pvp content.

    PvP items are the best gearing method because you have the ability to pick what item you want and it's also guaranteed that you will get an item once you reach the rating and conquest amounts. For the rest you have no guarantee you'll receive an item, let alone one that you need.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiekyerbooty View Post
    Why do Raiders, PvP'ers and World Quester's get the ilvl of their content, while M+ Rewards are boosted by 10 or 16 ilvls ?
    it is indeed ridiculius that GV doesnt reward 226 from killing X or Y number of bosses in hc modes just like completing lets say 20 WQ doesnt allow to pick like 213 reward from GV for WQ.

    this shoudl be indeed hotfixed to bring other sources up to decent level rewards

  17. #37
    I think Valor is more of an acknowledgement of how bullshit M+ gearing is and they have no real fix for it. You either allow infinite farming of gear or you don't. And if you do, why can't I farm raid bosses every day?

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    I think Valor is more of an acknowledgement of how bullshit M+ gearing is and they have no real fix for it. You either allow infinite farming of gear or you don't. And if you do, why can't I farm raid bosses every day?
    Thats why theres a seasonal cap on valor which means the items you can farm to 220 is limited, which makes sense, cause otherwise heroic raiding would be again useless, just like BFA, but people dont realize this and think that valor should give you fully 220 toons, which is hilarious.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    My raid is 9/10 heroic. I cannot talk our one healer into running M+10 (highest I've been able to get is a +8), because she says it's too hard. There are eight dungeons, versus one raid, with trash that actually matters, and fifteen affixes. That's a lot more to learn, and it changes weekly based on what keys we have and the affixes for the week. Compared to raid, where there are a total of ten fights to learn, M+ asks more of a person on the learning front.

    I think it's also easier to carry someone in a raid than it is in M+. I tank our raid, and I out DPS some of the DPS players. When that happens in a M+, we typically don't time them. That being said, it's typically easier to manage fewer people, so in terms of the organizational effort, M+ seems a lot easier to me.
    honestly im not surprised.

    i laught every time someone tell how "lol-easy" +10 is - for majority of playerbase its ultra hardcore mode.

    majority of people were more then happy with runing like +5 or +6 and fishing for TF.

    now all those peopel are gone and playing somethign else because no game could ever survive catering only to hardcores.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    honestly im not surprised.

    i laught every time someone tell how "lol-easy" +10 is - for majority of playerbase its ultra hardcore mode.

    majority of people were more then happy with runing like +5 or +6 and fishing for TF.

    now all those peopel are gone and playing somethign else because no game could ever survive catering only to hardcores.
    Is there any hard data to actually support any of these claims?

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