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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Explain what you mean when you say m+ rewards are boosted. I disagree with the premise of your argument.
    Sure, I'll give you the same example I've posted in other threads

    A person can do four +5 mythics and have two 210 ilvl rewards to choose from in their great vault

    210 ilvl is better than normal raid quality gear, it's on par with heroic raid gear

    Yet, +5's are piss easy, you can basically ignore most of the mechanics, and they take 15-30 minutes

    There is no way anyone deserves raid quality gear from doing +5's

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Yes I can. Raids carry more people more efficiently than M+. As such M+ is the more difficult content. It's not that hard to wrap your head around.
    That doesn't make any sense. At all.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiekyerbooty View Post
    Sure, I'll give you the same example I've posted in other threads

    A person can do four +5 mythics and have two 210 ilvl rewards to choose from in their great vault

    210 ilvl is better than normal raid quality gear, it's on par with heroic raid gear

    Yet, +5's are piss easy, you can basically ignore most of the mechanics, and they take 15-30 minutes

    There is no way anyone deserves raid quality gear from doing +5's
    Normal is piss easy too. But honestly I don't think anyone's getting too upset about normal gear. It's the 226 pieces that bother people who raid mythic. The answer here is pretty clear though - while item level is the same, it's still a much worse way to get gear than mythic raiding. If you do a full mythic clear, you get on average 3 pieces (20% per boss + 1 from vault). Best case, m+ gives you one item, and you won't even take it if it's worse than the raid gear. Also, you won't waste pieces as much because you can start to trade once duplicates drop and optimize stats. In m+, if you can't use the pieces you get, that's all folks.

    I also don't think a +14 is really any easier than the first 3 mythic bosses. +14 is certainly harder than every heroic boss except Sire. Mythic's placement in the reward structure is fine. It's good gear, but it's slow.

    As a test of this theory, look at any random player with cutting edge. The vast majority of their gear will be from the mythic raid, not m+.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-03-21 at 07:20 PM.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    There is no hard data for anything to support any claim. And if people supply sources of data gathering sites it is disputed as lolwut. Including numbers that Blizzard releases.

    Because...why trust that if you have a "feeling"?
    I know that i'm just calling people out. There are sooo many people on this site who make claims and they literally dont even realize it themselves because they are so used to just saying whatever comes to mind

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Normal is piss easy too. But honestly I don't think anyone's getting too upset about normal gear. It's the 226 pieces that bother people who raid mythic. The answer here is pretty clear though - while item level is the same, it's still a much worse way to get gear than mythic raiding. If you do a full mythic clear, you get on average 3 pieces (20% per boss + 1 from vault). Best case, m+ gives you one item, and you won't even take it if it's worse than the raid gear. Also, you won't waste pieces as much because you can start to trade once duplicates drop and optimize stats. In m+, if you can't use the pieces you get, that's all folks.

    I also don't think a +14 is really any easier than the first 3 mythic bosses. +14 is certainly harder than every heroic boss except Sire. Mythic's placement in the reward structure is fine. It's good gear, but it's slow.

    As a test of this theory, look at any random player with cutting edge. The vast majority of their gear will be from the mythic raid, not m+.
    You honestly think that M+5 should put raid quality gear in our vaults ?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiekyerbooty View Post
    You honestly think that M+5 should put raid quality gear in our vaults ?
    Considering you can get 1 a week, sure. Why not.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiekyerbooty View Post
    You honestly think that M+5 should put raid quality gear in our vaults ?
    Define "raid quality". It's hard to have a discussion when you're using labels that attempt to make your argument stronger than it is. Technically, 187 is "raid quality" if you count LFR. So umm... yes. I do think that's fine.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Define "raid quality". It's hard to have a discussion when you're using labels that seem to make your argument stronger than it is. Technically, 187 is "raid quality" if you count LFR. So umm... yes. I do think that's fine.
    I have done that already.. we both know +5's put 210 ilvl in your vault, I specifically asked you about +5's... so it seems fairly obvious we are talking about ilvl 210 raid quality gear

    I just think if you put 210 ilvl in the vault for doing 190 lvl content from M+, then you should also boost the ilvl rewards for the other content in the vault as well

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiekyerbooty View Post
    I have done that already.. we both know +5's put 210 ilvl in your vault, I specifically asked you about +5's... so it seems fairly obvious we are talking about ilvl 210 raid quality gear

    I just think if you put 210 ilvl in the vault for doing 190 lvl content from M+, then you should also boost the ilvl rewards for the other content in the vault as well
    I think focusing on +5 is not that useful because that's not what most people play. How many people are actually sitting there farming +5 week after week? Sure, maybe the rewards are a bit out of whack there, but unless I'm mistaken it's not a big deal, most people get up into the 10-14 range fairly quickly, and I think the rewards there are pretty well designed. If you want to argue that a +5 should drop 205, fine, I don't care. But +14 should still drop 226.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    I play with a “consistent PuG” and we are only 8/10 HC after a few months, and only killed Sludgefist once.

    After the raid we break up and smash 11-14 keys real quick to get vault loot.

    So my anecdotal experience is heroic CN, especially SLG and Sire, are much harder than mythic+.

    But, I’m also fine with the mythic+ reward structure, since it’s easy and accessibility is its pro and its con is that there is no catchup since it’s primary gearing is the vault that is limited to 1 item per week and there is a large loot table so it’s very prone to RNG.
    That's cool! I wish our raid group split up to do a bunch of M+, but in a 20-25 man raid, we usually only get about eight interested in M+. I would definitely agree that 11 keys are easier than HC SLG. On the flip side, I've gotten Keystone Master, and I feel that if I had a raid of only those players, we'd have gotten Sire Denathrius down by now.

    Considering loot dropped in M+'s can only be scaled up to 220, which is heroic ilvl from SLG/SD, I think it's fair. The 226 Great Vault rewards are really useful, and I could see arguments for keeping them at 226 or lowering them to 220, though personally I consider keeping them at 226 since I feel like they're about as difficult as early Mythic Raid bosses.

    Given this tier isn't over, looking at a comparison of Season 4 of BfA, 31% of Wowhead profiles had Ahead of the Curve: N'Zoth the Corruptor; 12% of profiles have Mythic: Wrathion, the Black Emperor; 11% of profiles have Battle for Azeroth Keystone Master: Season Four. Right now in Season One of SL, those equivalent achievements are 15%, 9%, and 7%, but that can obviously change as the season advances.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I think focusing on +5 is not that useful because that's not what most people play. How many people are actually sitting there farming +5 week after week? Sure, maybe the rewards are a bit out of whack there, but unless I'm mistaken it's not a big deal, most people get up into the 10-14 range fairly quickly, and I think the rewards there are pretty well designed. If you want to argue that a +5 should drop 205, fine, I don't care. But +14 should still drop 226.
    I just find it odd that we as a community put down casual players for wanting better gear, while we kick back and enjoy welfare epics ourselves

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiekyerbooty View Post
    I just find it odd that we as a community put down casual players for wanting better gear, while we kick back and enjoy welfare epics ourselves
    Again... I’m not sure what you mean when you use the inflammatory term “welfare epic”. A +14 isn’t easy, I don’t feel like my 226 is unearned.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    M+ needed a fix. The 210 loot became almost instantly useless and an upgrade system was in order.



    Then we should also implement that you only get mythic loot from raid in vault when you down sire.
    I would be fine with that. You get the loot you deserve, not something a whole difficulty higher. Especially when you can get it by failing the dungeon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Again... I’m not sure what you mean when you use the inflammatory term “welfare epic”. A +14 isn’t easy, I don’t feel like my 226 is unearned.
    If you're getting your 226 from m+ then it isn't deserved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiekyerbooty View Post
    You honestly think that M+5 should put raid quality gear in our vaults ?
    Theres nothing wrong with it since its a weekly reward and its not spammable, the reason +5 drop 194 ilvl is because you cant make them higher, or you start making other progression paths outdated, this happened in the past where spamming (yes, spamming, not the weekly vault) +15s was better than everything ingame except mythic raiding, and this was a huge oversight by blizz that was fixed now in shadowlands, but thanks to this oversight + titanforging existing in the past, people demand better gear thrown their way by not doing any content that rewards that gear.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    If you're getting your 226 from m+ then it isn't deserved.
    Why not? Do you think a +14 is easier than the first few mythic bosses? I don’t.

  16. #76
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    Effort and Content difficulty already reflect the rewards, regardless of what salty players say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    you cant seriously think that the later part of the raid is anything comparable to a meme +10, you just cant.
    It is perfectly comparable. The difficulty of Mythic Raiding is it's organization, not the content itself. One fuckup from the 20 players ends the try, same as one fuckup of the 5 dungeon players probably wiping the group too, but it's way easier to coordinate 5 players.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    If you're getting your 226 from m+ then it isn't deserved.
    Most of the mythic bosses are way harder than +14s, but still its not unearned, the issue isnt with m+ giving 226 on a weekly basis, its how unrewarding mythic raiding is gear wise, and thats why blizz buffed it, its just a matter of looking at how you need to down SLG and Sire to start getting the 233 loot, meanwhile you could just climb to 2400 and start mythic progression with 233 weps, so clearly theres something off with the progression paths.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    It is perfectly comparable. The difficulty of Mythic Raiding is it's organization, not the content itself. One fuckup from the 20 players ends the try, same as one fuckup of the 5 dungeon players probably wiping the group too, but it's way easier to coordinate 5 players.
    The comparison was with heroic raiding tbh, if you compare +10s with mythic raiding you just arent playing the same game as all of us, the fact that you just said that the content in mythic raiding isnt part of its difficulty is nothing but hilarious af.
    Last edited by Frozenbro; 2021-03-21 at 08:13 PM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Most of the mythic bosses are way harder than +14s, but still its not unearned, the issue isnt with m+ giving 226 on a weekly basis, its how unrewarding mythic raididing is gear wise, and thats why blizz buffed it, its just a matter of looking at how you need to down SLG and Sire to start getting the 233 loot, meanwhile you could just climb to 2400 and start mythic progression with 233 weps, so clearly theres something off with the progression paths.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The comparison was with heroic raiding tbh, if you compare +10s with mythic raiding you just arent playing the same game as all of us, the fact that you just said that the content in mythic raiding isnt hard is nothing but hilarious af.
    I think the best way to describe the situation is that one can't really compare the relative difficulty of M+ to raiding to PvP, as they all do different things and potentially test/exercise different skill sets. M+ and raiding tend to be lumped together because they're both PvE forms of content, but they still are different in how people approach them. It's really not uncommon that I've seen 2200-2400 rated PvPers who are absolutely terrible at M+ and/or raiding, or people with really high r.io scores that would get annihilated in rated PvP, or even high r.io people who constantly die to mechanics or can't follow directions in a raid. People's perspectives generally get framed from their own point of view w/o considering that their own view could be biased, and that concept is where the majority of this discussion falls.

    All that being said, one way we can look at all forms of content on a similar playing field is by determining how much time it actually takes to get your gear. From this perspective, I'd say M+ wins out in the short term, but PvP wins out in the long term (assuming you restrict yourself to one form of content). M+ has the benefit of having no limits on your acquisition of gear up to a certain ilvl beyond luck, and the Valor system boosts this ilvl threshold slightly but is still limited. However, PvP has the most efficient long-term gearing system because the only limit on your gear upgrades is your rating, and you can deterministically get all your gear in a finite amount of time (or shorter if you get lucky with your Vault). Raiding still is the loser in this equation, as there's no upgrade system and your chances at getting any loot at all are limited to the number bosses in the raid, the only guaranteed piece of loot after exhausting all the content in a week is the weekly Vault itself.

    As it stands right now, raiding still requires players to do M+/PvP to supplement their gear with how loot is currently working. If I had not done M+/PvP, I'd still be wearing questing/WQ shoulders because the raid will not drop them no matter how many times we've cleared the boss that drops them. Until last week (several months into the raid tier), I would've had no ring or trinkets from raid, either. Am I unlucky? I feel like I am, but I highly doubt that I'm the only person that suffers this issue.

    The fundamental problem is that raiding has finite chances to get gear that are completely random, but M+ has infinite chances and PvP has a highly deterministic gearing. As described, the problem can be independent of the difficulty of the content. However, the difficulty associated with raiding just exacerbates the gearing issues with raiding right now. The weekly Vault was supposed to help alleviate such issues, but they just made M+/PvP that much better, still leaving the gearing gap. As it stands, if you want your rewards to reflect your content, you'll just M+ or PvP as their difficulty-to-reward ratio is so much better than raiding right now.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2021-03-21 at 08:37 PM.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    I think the best way to describe the situation is that one can't really compare the relative difficulty of M+ to raiding to PvP, as they all do different things and potentially test/exercise different skill sets. M+ and raiding tend to be lumped together because they're both PvE forms of content, but they still are different in how people approach them. It's really not uncommon that I've seen 2200-2400 rated PvPers who are absolutely terrible at M+ and/or raiding, or people with really high r.io scores that would get annihilated in rated PvP, or even high r.io people who constantly die to mechanics or can't follow directions in a raid. People's perspectives generally get framed from their own point of view w/o considering that their own view could be biased, and that concept is where the majority of this discussion falls.

    All that being said, one way we can look at all forms of content on a similar playing field is by determining how much time it actually takes to get your gear. From this perspective, I'd say M+ wins out in the short term, but PvP wins out in the long term (assuming you restrict yourself to one form of content). M+ has the benefit of having no limits on your acquisition of gear up to a certain ilvl beyond luck, and the Valor system boosts this ilvl threshold slightly but is still limited. However, PvP has the most efficient long-term gearing system because the only limit on your gear upgrades is your rating, and you can deterministically get all your gear in a finite amount of time (or shorter if you get lucky with your Vault). Raiding still is the loser in this equation, as there's no upgrade system and your chances at getting any loot at all are limited to the number bosses in the raid, the only guaranteed piece of loot after exhausting all the content in a week is the weekly Vault itself.

    As it stands right now, raiding still requires players to do M+/PvP to supplement their gear with how loot is currently working. If I had not done M+/PvP, I'd still be wearing questing/WQ shoulders because the raid will not drop them no matter how many times we've cleared the boss that drops them. Until last week (several months into the raid tier), I would've had no ring or trinkets from raid, either. Am I unlucky? I feel like I am, but I highly doubt that I'm the only person that suffers this issue.

    The fundamental problem is that raiding has finite chances to get gear that are completely random, but M+ has infinite chances and PvP has a highly deterministic gearing. As described, the problem can be independent of the difficulty of the content. However, the difficulty associated with raiding just exacerbates the gearing issues with raiding right now. The weekly Vault was supposed to help alleviate such issues, but they just made M+/PvP that much better, still leaving the gearing gap. As it stands, if you want your rewards to reflect your content, you'll just M+ or PvP as their difficulty-to-reward ratio is so much better than raiding right now.
    Pretty much all you said, its hard to gauge which progression path is harder than the other, specially when you compare pvp vs pve, you can compare the hardest scenario of 1 to the hardest scenario of the other at most, hence the example i gave of players with 233 weapons as soon as mythic progression started, and thats why the progression paths (specially raid one) needs to be looked at, i can tell you that everyone in our CE core farms mythic +14s for the weekly vault (cause they are that easy compared to 10/10M) and everyone had a minimum of 1800 rating for the 220+ pieces, you just cant progress on mythic with raid alone at all, in fact, most of our gear during progression wasnt from the raid itself but pvp and m+, now we are decked in mythic raid gear cause we had weeks of farm since we got CE over a month ago, but that wasnt the case during progression, theres a clear imbalance.

  20. #80
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiekyerbooty View Post
    Why do Raiders, PvP'ers and World Quester's get the ilvl of their content, while M+ Rewards are boosted by 10 or 16 ilvls ?
    Normally I would have said that rewards do reflect the content

    There is a difference between ppl doing just WQs...or mythic+...or raiding....though at some point it might bleed into each other and cause some ppl to think "hey that is unfair"

    But yeah...what I don't get is how doing WQs now upgrades your mythic+ dungeon gear...and only that....

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