Should Rewards Reflect Your Content ?

[Shiekyerbooty]

Why do Raiders, PvP'ers and World Quester's get the ilvl of their content, while M+ Rewards are boosted by 10 or 16 ilvls ?

[Temp name]

Because blizzard wants to make M+ a viable gearing alternative, but if you could farm 226 endlessly you'd never do any other content for gearing

[schwarzkopf]

Rewards should reflect your effort, not your content.

Being carried through a Mythic raid shouldn't give greater reward than as much effort solo doing world content.

[Echocho]

Rewards should reflect your effort, not your content.

Being carried through a Mythic raid shouldn't give greater reward than as much effort solo doing world content.

This is the correct answer. However effort could either mean doing something really hard or something really time consuming. There should always be two paths that both reach the same point.

For example in the past you could raid heroic (then called normal) and get your gear really quick or you could do daily heroics to cap Valor points and buy gear of equal quality.
One method was fast and hard, the other was slow and easy but the end results were roughly the same.
Options are key.

[TrollHunter3000]

Why do Raiders, PvP'ers and World Quester's get the ilvl of their content, while M+ Rewards are boosted by 10 or 16 ilvls ?

uhhh what? Mythic+ rewards are absolute garbage right now even with being able to use valor to upgrade them

[thedingleberry]

I think the biggest issue this expansion is that in previous expansions, if you were a raider, you felt accomplishment from gearing by killing raid bosses, but in shadowlands, it's almost always the case where people are always overgearing the raids ahead of time in M+, so the boss kills in raids are way less rewarding. And for people that actually are geared to be progressing in a current raid, you are always feeling way underpowered when your group brings people that are already +15 M+ geared just to kill the boss.

If blizzard was smart, they would remove the requirement for KSM to upgrade to 220. Just make the amount of valor rewarded at the end go up for higher keys so pushers are still rewarded for their effort. The carrot on a stick of gear upgrades would do better for a larger amount of the game subscribers to not unsub between patches if there was always the continued opportunity for gear upgrading via valor, it just was much slower if you are running lower number keys.

IMO, the reward from getting KSM should just be the achievement and the mount (both means to have bragging rights).

[Kumorii]

uhhh what? Mythic+ rewards are absolute garbage right now even with being able to use valor to upgrade them

He's talking about vault giving an ilvl boost in m+.
And I agree with him that pvp and raid should also give a boost in the vault of that's the case. Or m+ should be toned down to give fans ilvl as the end of dungeon reward. Just like the other two.

Though I prefer the former.

[TrollHunter3000]

He's talking about vault giving an ilvl boost in m+.
And I agree with him that pvp and raid should also give a boost in the vault of that's the case. Or m+ should be toned down to give fans ilvl as the end of dungeon reward. Just like the other two.

Though I prefer the former.

Oh yeah, I guess but to me the real ilvl of mythic 15+ is 226. They just didn't want people to farm the fuck out of it and be 226 the first week

[Kumorii]

Oh yeah, I guess but to me the real ilvl of mythic 15+ is 226. They just didn't want people to farm the fuck out of it and be 226 the first week

Sure, it just makes more sense to me that doing 15+ v gives you one 226 reward at vault. Same as hc give you one 226 reward at vault. Mythic should probably give 230 as the last two bosses.

That way you get slightly more powerful each week to effectively nerf content over time so peon who struggle with hc /mythic raiding gets stronger and can clear it out go further the longer the season goes on.

226 for m+ already outgear it big time, so m+already have that system implemented.

[Azerate]

Previously I also thought that raid vault should give you a higher ilvl items as well, but I changed my mind over time. If you just gave people weekly items from a mythic raid ilvl for completing heroic raid, you'd completely remove the need to even do mythic raids (other than progression ofc).

As for m+...it's not that simple either. You kind of get higher ilvl reward than the content provides, but not really. That ilvl reward is part of the reward structure for said content, so technically it's not higher than it should be.

The thing with m+ is that for an average casual raider/pver to reliably clear a given keystone level, they need ilvl much higher than what that keystone level drops. Or in other words you could say that the rewards from the regular dungeon-end chest are lower than the gear you already need to have to get that chest in most cases. Yes, I'm sure someone can link me 10 people right now who completed keystone master at 210 ilvl, but that's certainly not the case for the majority of people who end up achieving it.
Valor is supposed to mitigate that a bit and I guess it's a good mechanic for people who mostly limit themselves to do m+. I know in my community most people reached 220ish ilvl before they started timing 15s and it seems to be the case for other guilds/communities of heroic raiders on my server as well.

Sure, it just makes more sense to me that doing 15+ v gives you one 226 reward at vault. Same as hc give you one 226 reward at vault. Mythic should probably give 230 as the last two bosses.

That way you get slightly more powerful each week to effectively nerf content over time so peon who struggle with hc /mythic raiding gets stronger and can clear it out go further the longer the season goes on.

226 for m+ already outgear it big time, so m+already have that system implemented.

The problem with that is mythic raid ilvl is the ilvl ceiling for any patch. So they would have to add a step up in ilvl that would only exist in the great vault for completing mythic bosses, which would be unhealthy for the whole system for a lot of reasons.

[Kumorii]

Previously I also thought that raid vault should give you a higher ilvl items as well, but I changed my mind over time. If you just gave people weekly items from a mythic raid ilvl for completing heroic raid, you'd completely remove the need to even do mythic raids (other than progression ofc).

As for m+...it's not that simple either. You kind of get higher ilvl reward than the content provides, but not really. That ilvl reward is part of the reward structure for said content, so technically it's not higher than it should be.

The thing with m+ is that for an average casual raider/pver to reliably clear a given keystone level, they need ilvl much higher than what that keystone level drops. Or in other words you could say that the rewards from the regular dungeon-end chest are lower than the gear you already need to have to get that chest in most cases. Yes, I'm sure someone can link me 10 people right now who completed keystone master at 210 ilvl, but that's certainly not the case for the majority of people who end up achieving it.
Valor is supposed to mitigate that a bit and I guess it's a good mechanic for people who mostly limit themselves to do m+. I know in my community most people reached 220ish ilvl before they started timing 15s and it seems to be the case for other guilds/communities of heroic raiders on my server as well.



The problem with that is mythic raid ilvl is the ilvl ceiling for any patch. So they would have to add a step up in ilvl that would only exist in the great vault for completing mythic bosses, which would be unhealthy for the whole system for a lot of reasons.

Most players need higher ilvl than what heroic drops and the first few bosses in mythic drops. The argument you make for m+is true even for raiders. Top raiders and top m+ players can clear content early while average players need gear to help me. Thing is for average raiders to get gear that helps them the most they need to go and do m+ to get that ilvl to outgear their content.

Shifting it so its the same for raids as for m+ means people can do either or both and over time get gear that helps them clear the content.

I don't agree that 15s are tuned for 226. They are tuned for 210 which is what they drop. Reason for 226 is just so m+ players can achieve same ilvl as mythic raiders. That way all content. Pvp, raids and m+ are equal in upper bound limit. Bar the 2 ilvls from the end bosses at mythic raids.

Boosting raids in vault won't change the equilibrium for the upper bounds. It just means more choice. If you progress mythic. Only gear you can get is from m+ vault. So raiders need to do m+. With the change to give higher in vault for raiding. Raiders have the choice to only do raids.


To answer your edit.
I don't agree that they have to do so at all. 226 is the upper limit. Content and skill determined how quick you reach it. Clearing mythic gives you 13 chances with 3 choices being guaranteed for 1 piece. While the other 10 can give you more or none and the possibility for trading gets higher for each week.

The point with giving higher in vault is to effectively work as a nerd to raid content for average players. Which I think is healthy for the game.

[Razion]

M+ would become irrelevant to gearing like Heroic and Normal dungeons are if they didn't provide frequent and powerful rewards, and also because M+ is based on the LFG format (for many reasons such as for people to filter who they want for groups for success, as well as because of people potentially dropping from dungeons they don't like or with affixes they don't like from an automated queue) and also because the LFG format of M+ would quickly become inactive and without enough players in the pool to play with if the rewards weren't frequent or powerful enough. In summary, why does it provide the rewards? To sustain people being able to get groups, that's why. Now, people not getting groups in SL is probably more a symptom of them reducing the amount of gear offered, but that's a different discussion.

[ClassicPeon]

Rewards should reflect your effort, not your content.

Being carried through a Mythic raid shouldn't give greater reward than as much effort solo doing world content.

You cant stop people getting carried in mythic. You can however stop people from getting rewarded for doing trivial solo content.

- - - Updated - - -

This is the correct answer. However effort could either mean doing something really hard or something really time consuming. There should always be two paths that both reach the same point.

For example in the past you could raid heroic (then called normal) and get your gear really quick or you could do daily heroics to cap Valor points and buy gear of equal quality.
One method was fast and hard, the other was slow and easy but the end results were roughly the same.
Options are key.

You can upgrade the gear you get from the covenant campaign to ilvl 197 which is basicly normal lvl loot. It doesnt even take that long

You literally can do the same thing you could back then.

[MrLachyG]

Rewards should reflect your effort, not your content.

Being carried through a Mythic raid shouldn't give greater reward than as much effort solo doing world content.

problem with that is it would be impossible to police.

[Shelly]

M+ at +10 tends to be harder content than heroic raiding. As such it offers a weekly reward closer to that of the mythic raid than of the heroic raid.

A bigger question is why was PvP so over-valued as to make it the primary gearing path for all content? (And yes, it's because Blizz thinks they are getting chocolate in your peanut butter when it's more like you're getting pickles in your ice cream.)

[Squigglyo]

While it had its flaws

Warforged gear solved many of these problems.


Mythic awarded the 'best' gear. You could go to a mythic raid, and if you get a drop, you know its the 'best'.
You could do a Heroic raid even though your in full heroic gear, knowing that if your a little lucky, youll get a mythic piece.
You could do a normal raid in heroic gear, knowing if your even luckier, youll get a mythic piece.

You could run any key, the easier the key, the more lucky you needed to be.


You could argue being lucky shouldnt be a factor, that a smarter system could be used to properly match time/effort/content.
But, there was always a reason to do everything in BFA.
I had no problem rerunning heroic raids, even though i didnt need the loot, cause I could still get an upgrade.
I had no problem running lower keys because if I was lucky ide still get an upgrade.

Now, I have no need to run anything below mythic raiding, and thus dont.
I have no need to run anything below a +14 key, and I dont.
I have no need to do World Quests, and outside of the callings, i dont.



Rewards should match the content you do, but also having a slower way to get there is needed.
I dont have the time to commit to raiding, thus i dont do mythic raids. i am essentially locked out from gearing up my character now in any way outside of the vault.
Sure, I dont run the content, thus 'shouldnt' get the best gear. But if it took me 3+ months to get the same gear a mythic raider got in the first month, theres no harm. Its not like people that rely on the vault would ever get into a mythic group anyway.

[Frozenbro]

Rewards should reflect your effort, not your content.

Being carried through a Mythic raid shouldn't give greater reward than as much effort solo doing world content.

You could've used any comparison except world content, cause world content difficulty is trash xd and no doing 500 world quest isnt effort.

[Echo of Soul]

You could've used any comparison except world content, cause world content difficulty is trash xd and no doing 500 world quest isnt effort.

So spending time on something isn't effort, only doing something difficult requires effort? I need to tell that to my boss

[LordVargK]

M+ at +10 tends to be harder content than heroic raiding. As such it offers a weekly reward closer to that of the mythic raid than of the heroic raid.

A bigger question is why was PvP so over-valued as to make it the primary gearing path for all content? (And yes, it's because Blizz thinks they are getting chocolate in your peanut butter when it's more like you're getting pickles in your ice cream.)

I hope you mean that sarcastically.
Doing a +10 isn't even as hard as a normal raid. Also dungeons can be carried by one good player. Have a good tank who calls the shots and that's good enough. In raids and especially in Nathria a single mistake by one player can wipe you, since there are many encounters with personal responsibility.

Raids universally need more skilled players than m+. That's why I get OP's question. To counter that, M+ drops below heroic gear, which means raids are shortterm the better gear source. Longterm however the weekly upgrade you get from makes you character stronger than would be possible via raids. I simply hoped that valor would also apply to raids, but I guess Blizzard has other plans.

[ClassicPeon]

So spending time on something isn't effort, only doing something difficult requires effort? I need to tell that to my boss

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