I have done that already.. we both know +5's put 210 ilvl in your vault, I specifically asked you about +5's... so it seems fairly obvious we are talking about ilvl 210 raid quality gear
I just think if you put 210 ilvl in the vault for doing 190 lvl content from M+, then you should also boost the ilvl rewards for the other content in the vault as well
That's cool! I wish our raid group split up to do a bunch of M+, but in a 20-25 man raid, we usually only get about eight interested in M+. I would definitely agree that 11 keys are easier than HC SLG. On the flip side, I've gotten Keystone Master, and I feel that if I had a raid of only those players, we'd have gotten Sire Denathrius down by now.
Considering loot dropped in M+'s can only be scaled up to 220, which is heroic ilvl from SLG/SD, I think it's fair. The 226 Great Vault rewards are really useful, and I could see arguments for keeping them at 226 or lowering them to 220, though personally I consider keeping them at 226 since I feel like they're about as difficult as early Mythic Raid bosses.
Given this tier isn't over, looking at a comparison of Season 4 of BfA, 31% of Wowhead profiles had Ahead of the Curve: N'Zoth the Corruptor; 12% of profiles have Mythic: Wrathion, the Black Emperor; 11% of profiles have Battle for Azeroth Keystone Master: Season Four. Right now in Season One of SL, those equivalent achievements are 15%, 9%, and 7%, but that can obviously change as the season advances.
Theres nothing wrong with it since its a weekly reward and its not spammable, the reason +5 drop 194 ilvl is because you cant make them higher, or you start making other progression paths outdated, this happened in the past where spamming (yes, spamming, not the weekly vault) +15s was better than everything ingame except mythic raiding, and this was a huge oversight by blizz that was fixed now in shadowlands, but thanks to this oversight + titanforging existing in the past, people demand better gear thrown their way by not doing any content that rewards that gear.
Effort and Content difficulty already reflect the rewards, regardless of what salty players say.
It is perfectly comparable. The difficulty of Mythic Raiding is it's organization, not the content itself. One fuckup from the 20 players ends the try, same as one fuckup of the 5 dungeon players probably wiping the group too, but it's way easier to coordinate 5 players.
Most of the mythic bosses are way harder than +14s, but still its not unearned, the issue isnt with m+ giving 226 on a weekly basis, its how unrewarding mythic raiding is gear wise, and thats why blizz buffed it, its just a matter of looking at how you need to down SLG and Sire to start getting the 233 loot, meanwhile you could just climb to 2400 and start mythic progression with 233 weps, so clearly theres something off with the progression paths.
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The comparison was with heroic raiding tbh, if you compare +10s with mythic raiding you just arent playing the same game as all of us, the fact that you just said that the content in mythic raiding isnt part of its difficulty is nothing but hilarious af.
Last edited by Frozenbro; 2021-03-21 at 08:13 PM.
I think the best way to describe the situation is that one can't really compare the relative difficulty of M+ to raiding to PvP, as they all do different things and potentially test/exercise different skill sets. M+ and raiding tend to be lumped together because they're both PvE forms of content, but they still are different in how people approach them. It's really not uncommon that I've seen 2200-2400 rated PvPers who are absolutely terrible at M+ and/or raiding, or people with really high r.io scores that would get annihilated in rated PvP, or even high r.io people who constantly die to mechanics or can't follow directions in a raid. People's perspectives generally get framed from their own point of view w/o considering that their own view could be biased, and that concept is where the majority of this discussion falls.
All that being said, one way we can look at all forms of content on a similar playing field is by determining how much time it actually takes to get your gear. From this perspective, I'd say M+ wins out in the short term, but PvP wins out in the long term (assuming you restrict yourself to one form of content). M+ has the benefit of having no limits on your acquisition of gear up to a certain ilvl beyond luck, and the Valor system boosts this ilvl threshold slightly but is still limited. However, PvP has the most efficient long-term gearing system because the only limit on your gear upgrades is your rating, and you can deterministically get all your gear in a finite amount of time (or shorter if you get lucky with your Vault). Raiding still is the loser in this equation, as there's no upgrade system and your chances at getting any loot at all are limited to the number bosses in the raid, the only guaranteed piece of loot after exhausting all the content in a week is the weekly Vault itself.
As it stands right now, raiding still requires players to do M+/PvP to supplement their gear with how loot is currently working. If I had not done M+/PvP, I'd still be wearing questing/WQ shoulders because the raid will not drop them no matter how many times we've cleared the boss that drops them. Until last week (several months into the raid tier), I would've had no ring or trinkets from raid, either. Am I unlucky? I feel like I am, but I highly doubt that I'm the only person that suffers this issue.
The fundamental problem is that raiding has finite chances to get gear that are completely random, but M+ has infinite chances and PvP has a highly deterministic gearing. As described, the problem can be independent of the difficulty of the content. However, the difficulty associated with raiding just exacerbates the gearing issues with raiding right now. The weekly Vault was supposed to help alleviate such issues, but they just made M+/PvP that much better, still leaving the gearing gap. As it stands, if you want your rewards to reflect your content, you'll just M+ or PvP as their difficulty-to-reward ratio is so much better than raiding right now.
Last edited by exochaft; 2021-03-21 at 08:37 PM.
“Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
“It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
Pretty much all you said, its hard to gauge which progression path is harder than the other, specially when you compare pvp vs pve, you can compare the hardest scenario of 1 to the hardest scenario of the other at most, hence the example i gave of players with 233 weapons as soon as mythic progression started, and thats why the progression paths (specially raid one) needs to be looked at, i can tell you that everyone in our CE core farms mythic +14s for the weekly vault (cause they are that easy compared to 10/10M) and everyone had a minimum of 1800 rating for the 220+ pieces, you just cant progress on mythic with raid alone at all, in fact, most of our gear during progression wasnt from the raid itself but pvp and m+, now we are decked in mythic raid gear cause we had weeks of farm since we got CE over a month ago, but that wasnt the case during progression, theres a clear imbalance.
Getting 210 gear from +5's is welfare gear,.... convince me a +5 is harder than normal Cata Heroics
Being able to upgrade an Item to 220... while never even looking at SD.... is welfare gear
I honestly think M+ has ruined WoW's entire gearing system
I have turned into one of " no flyers "... feels weird man
It has. WoW's gear progress was always gated behind weekly lockouts and arena point caps. When you try to add an infinitely repeatable system into that mix, it simply does not work. They've tried to make it work with Titanforging, the weekly box, and in SL making the gear dogshit from end of dungeon rewards.. but it's still a problem. As a washed-up casual doing a +14 once a week, my character I haven't played in 6 weeks should *not* have half my gear at literally the ilvl cap from the weekly vault. That does not reflect the effort I have put into the game.
So yeah, M+ broke gearing in WoW. It's why we have the weekly vault, it's why we had Titanforging, and it's not really a solvable problem imo. If you can infinitely repeat M+, then it will always either A) Be the best gearing path by far (see: Legion/BfA) or B) not be viable at all outside of your weekly welfare box (SL pre-9.0.5).
Newsflash, Blizzard doesnt care that you are pushing above 15, if they did, they would have to balance as such, and that will never happen.
They capped the gear levels even more than before because it had gotten out of hand, at least its out of hand for the people actually playing the game semi-properly, the 99% doesnt so they cant really experience it.
I literally complained to everyone i play with in 8.2 and 8.3 about how stupid the loot had gotten, when my alts were almost done gearing in less than 8hr playtime at max level sometimes, with some lucky drops.
Obviously its a minority event considering the game population, but what am i supposed to do, pretend i dont have a bunch of people that can play multiple roles/classes and faceroll 15s, and go the pug way to pretend gearing was slow?
I quite enjoy and hate the loot changes in SL at the moment, my alts suffer a bit with trinkets but i have a reason to run a dungeon or two when i actually feel like playing the game.
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So, decide your storyline.
+5 gives 210 weekly in the chest, and somehow you wont ever look SD, but you will manage to upgrade it to 220, because the KSM requirement doesnt apply to your storyline, correct?
Also yes +5 is harder than Cata Heroics because newer dungeons have more mechanics and Cata heroics were a joke, the same way +5, +10 and most of weeks +15 is a joke.
Im not really complaining tbh, there were 2 upgrades remaining on valor datamining, so that means people will eventually upgrade to 226 via valor somehow, idk if that means they are looking for something better than KSM or they are just gonna unlock them as progressive nerf, only blizz knows, i was just using it as example, my main focus is raid and like every raider that actually completes content i had to m+ and pvp to mythic raid, gearing paths are all over the place, tho if you ask me if this is better than titanforging? hell yes it is fuck that system.
Don't worry. I hear boosts are really cheap right now because of the way Blizz structured the valor upgrades, there are plenty of people willing to buy tokens for runs... Hmmmm... Cha Ching
I am very sorry, I did not mean to sound as if I was personally insulting, you, I am sure you are a very good player with a great iLvL