Page 10 of 16 FirstFirst ...
8
9
10
11
12
... LastLast
  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    That all was just my experience, we did HCs with almost same group as we farmed M0 during launch of SL and we had zero trouble in dungeon blues/t2 gear.
    I haven't done SL M+0, but i've done Legion and BfA ones (and simply assume they are of similiar difficulty) and i say the TBC are more difficult simply because a single mistake can lead to a wipe.
    This isn't because they are mechanically extremely challenging, but simply because
    (1) Trash and certain Bosses destroy tanks
    (2) I don't have the toolkit to compensate any mistakes

    Especially the latter portion deservers highlight, with a more modern toolkit, one could just walk over most of these dungeons super easy.
    Oh Tank takes a lot of damage? Pop a CD.
    Oh, group is taking a lot of damage? Pop a CD.
    I pulled aggro off the tank? Pop a Def CD or just kite it with mobility tools.

    Yet, because toolkits are extremely restrictive, i cannot easily boost triple my healing output if necessary.
    In Retail, i can just compensate the lack of knowledge or plain mistakes with the usage my superior toolkit and the fact that M0 rarely has elements that (almost) oneshot people without some visual queue.

    And if you tell me you just walked over bosses that do 5k damage/hit on a tank (1st Boss Mana Tombs) or the Mages in Old Hillsbrad which blast people's asses with random Fire blasts / Cone of Cold for 3-4k, then be my guest, because i don't think an average pug would at this stage just walk over them.
    And that's not even addressing the event on the 2nd Boss in Blood Furnace, where you can just pack up unless you have the proper comp to handle those adds or the incoming damage.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I haven't done SL M+0, but i've done Legion and BfA ones (and simply assume they are of similiar difficulty) and i say the TBC are more difficult simply because a single mistake can lead to a wipe.
    This isn't because they are mechanically extremely challenging, but simply because
    (1) Trash and certain Bosses destroy tanks
    (2) I don't have the toolkit to compensate any mistakes
    Once tank is def capped the damage is very predictable and you can just spamheal them. Trash melee swings have timer and CD on their hard hitting abilities (SL HC big demon mortal strike, Thunderclap in Sethekk Halls HC).

  3. #183
    Immortal Zka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    hungary
    Posts
    7,066
    Just finished my first 2 heroics yesterday. SP and STV. The latter was much harder, very easy to wipe to a bad pull or bad tactic. Generally if you have some CC and coordination in the team and you use them properly, it's fairly easy. It's just very unforgiving to mistakes. The hard cap on tank aoe (unless it's pala) is a very big wipe factor on overpulls.

    Mythic0s in blue gear are way way easier and more forgiving than this.

    Overall I'm happy with BC heroics, it's the same as I remembered. Finally proper teamwork is needed and there is a degree of challenge, unlike in vanilla.

  4. #184
    It's all about the composition

    In shattered halls hc, get a mage and a warlock and you can pull 10 mobs, kite and aoe. Easy

    With a melee group, pull 5 mobs without a prot paladin and any cc and tank won't hold aggro, mobs cleave and you wipe

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    After doing all Heroics except Arcatraz and Ramparts I can say my memory was right: they are on par with M0 dungeons in Shadowlands launch.
    I don't play TBC Classic but I have done the TBC timewalking. And I can say the biggest difference between then and now is that mobs will actually affect CC attacks against your group. Group members will be sheeped, hexed, or silenced. Tanks will be gouged and lose aggro as the mobs attack the top dps. You'll be counterspelled and have your magic school locked out. One time my group wiped, I think it was in Mana Tombs, and the group was all mad at me, the healer. I asked them what they expected with them having pull four packs each with mobs with silences who kept me permanently silenced for over 30 seconds until we were dead. Another time I was kicked from a group after we wiped on the first boss in Mana Tombs. I warned them that all the trash in the room would pull with the boss and they called me a liar, that no such mechanic exists. And when I warned them about his damage reflect shield they ignored that too.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I don't play TBC Classic but I have done the TBC timewalking. And I can say the biggest difference between then and now is that mobs will actually affect CC attacks against your group. Group members will be sheeped, hexed, or silenced. Tanks will be gouged and lose aggro as the mobs attack the top dps. You'll be counterspelled and have your magic school locked out. One time my group wiped, I think it was in Mana Tombs, and the group was all mad at me, the healer. I asked them what they expected with them having pull four packs each with mobs with silences who kept me permanently silenced for over 30 seconds until we were dead. Another time I was kicked from a group after we wiped on the first boss in Mana Tombs. I warned them that all the trash in the room would pull with the boss and they called me a liar, that no such mechanic exists. And when I warned them about his damage reflect shield they ignored that too.
    Most mobs that silence have a 20 yards range on it to force casters into max range

  7. #187
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    8,306
    TBC HC dungeons were ridiculously easy. With a group that knew how to CC/interrupt you could blow through any TBC HC dungeon incredibly quickly.

    Whether or not they are on par with m0? Hmmm, I think SL m0 dungeons are easier. Really don't need any coordination in mythic dungeons until you get into the +5 and higher versions.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    TBC HC dungeons were ridiculously easy. With a group that knew how to CC/interrupt you could blow through any TBC HC dungeon incredibly quickly.
    Some group setups have easier times than others. This works today the same way like it did back in the days. But the numbers are indeed pretty much tuned like back in the days -> unprepared tanks/groups are getting melted in some hc's.

  9. #189
    Hunter, Warlock, Mage, Prot Paladin and heal Shamy literally melt HC dungeons. I'm through all HCs now once at least and that's our guild internal group.

    We want to start selling HC boosts as soon as a few more people get the needed reputation. Those who are currently already revered mostly have no need for that.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Millyraynge View Post
    Some group setups have easier times than others. This works today the same way like it did back in the days. But the numbers are indeed pretty much tuned like back in the days -> unprepared tanks/groups are getting melted in some hc's.
    Remember the ogre boss's room in Shadow Labyrinth? Very difficult without a warlock who could CC 3 mobs at once. And then you'd pull and suddenly lose your healer to a stealthed rogue.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  11. #191
    People were shocked that with 15 years of experience far better resources, reliable technology and an overall higher level of skill 'hardcore vanilla' was a joke.
    People are still somehow shocked that when you factor in the above even accounting for badly designed classes and poorly optimised gear heroic 5 mans weren't the super-elite hardcore experiences they remember.

    Nostalgia's a hell of a drug.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  12. #192
    They’re easier than I expected provided all your friends aren’t playing Boomkins, Ele Shaman, SPriests or Warriors.

    Hunter/Mage/Lock group feels like the first key I did in SL. Slower pace but predictable and controllable.

    Hunter/Boomkin/Ele felt like +10’s. Unforgiving, no oh-shit buttons to compensate.

    Comp matters.
    Last edited by Prag; 2021-06-12 at 11:25 AM.

  13. #193
    Guys, HCs are easy. Mobs will allways hit hard till you overgear it.

    And dont compare them to m0 please. Those are done with fresh 60 characters with 160ilvl.
    Its diferent kind of dungeons from diferent times.
    They will become irrelevant pretty soon.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    After doing all Heroics except Arcatraz and Ramparts I can say my memory was right: they are on par with M0 dungeons in Shadowlands launch.
    not even you have to remove 90% of all mechanics that m+0 have and scale them down by 30% or so and you get TBC HCs but dog Content is hard if youre a dog like that one dude said that its harder than a +17 lool but never touched retail
    I.O BFA Season 3


  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    Once tank is def capped the damage is very predictable and you can just spamheal them.
    That works very poorly for obvious reasons on a gauntlet event, especially when they also stun your tank.
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    Trash melee swings have timer and CD on their hard hitting abilities (SL HC big demon mortal strike, Thunderclap in Sethekk Halls HC).
    Those are by comparison super easy mobs, take something such as the Adepts in Blood Furnace, which can do 3 hits in a single one with their Thrash ability.

    It's either, you CC one or you'll likely have a dead tank.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Savant View Post
    people said in the past that wow vanilla raids were hard and it turned out they were piss easy
    They remembered being tuned for those raids and not having fifteen years of analysis of exactly what to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  17. #197
    Heroics arent hard on the basis of complexity or difficulty of execution. They are however brutally unforgiving and highly dependant on group setup and planning. If you group with experienced people you have played games with for years, ofcourse it's going to be easy. But if you just throw a random PuG together you will more often than not have a hard time completing most instances.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    They remembered being tuned for those raids and not having fifteen years of analysis of exactly what to do.
    We got classic though, not vanilla. They are not the same games.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    Heroics arent hard on the basis of complexity or difficulty of execution. They are however brutally unforgiving and highly dependant on group setup and planning. If you group with experienced people you have played games with for years, ofcourse it's going to be easy. But if you just throw a random PuG together you will more often than not have a hard time completing most instances.

    - - - Updated - - -



    We got classic though, not vanilla. They are not the same games.
    This pretty much. People too often judge on how others perform, especially the people who not only played this content before, they did so repeatedly and restarted a lot of times over the last 10 years, to the point whete they know every single stone's location and actions.

    Yes, the mechanics are not hard, but screwing around, especially without an optimal group or overgearing, will make quick work of the group.

    And back then, especially in vanilla, people had to learn what they had to do first hand, no guides, no experience, all of that while playing on toasters with crap internet. Of course it felt fucking hard.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    I can't say for SL (stopped playing at Legion), but I can say safely that even normal high-level instances are already about as hard as M0 in Legion, so I'm having big doubt about heroics not being noticeably harder.
    You guys have got to be kidding me.
    HC might be like M0, but normal is NOT. I tanked every 5-man dungeon in TBC, back then, and they're not that hard.

    People doing retail must have gotten soft...

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    Well with bad people you can definitely even wipe on Deadmines.

    See? You don't even do the simplest mechanics in the game and thats why you struggle. It's self explanatory you tank boss near pillars and line of sight that sheep as healer since it targets the person he is about to sheep.
    I don't recall ever being able to los a pve mob's abilities. (edit - obviously not including an intentional mechanic like arc explosion here since I imagine all sorts of internet arguing happening if I don't point out the obvious)

    Meanwhile I blew through M+ to the 15 key in about a dozen tries. 2 unsuccessful runs, one because of a dc. Pugged the first couple bosses in several of the previous mythic raid tiers. There's nothing I saw to convince me you're leet and playing on a completely different level in retail. Sorry, not impressed.

    That all was just my experience, we did HCs with almost same group as we farmed M0 during launch of SL and we had zero trouble in dungeon blues/t2 gear.
    Well, you do outgear most of it. That still doesn't explain the complete mismatch between what I experienced in Legion, BfA, Classic, and what you are trying to sell here. Its not really open to interpretation, its not like you could somehow believe this. So, we come to the psychological reasons.

    Retail WoW is a dying game, but there is a core group willing to throw a lot of time and money at it. No one in a real esport respects mmo raiding. It simply is gap in skill level that you suggest is there between classic and retail. The various fps and rts games that have millions of competitors striving to come out on top ensure that. If CS or LoL or maybe most of all still SC require like a 9 or 10 to come out on top then retail raids and M+ are like a 6 or 7 with Classic being like a 5. What really is the point of selling "leet skillz" when that isn't what the mmo genre does well anyways!?
    Last edited by Marakesh; 2021-06-12 at 09:45 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •