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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    Well with bad people you can definitely even wipe on Deadmines.

    See? You don't even do the simplest mechanics in the game and thats why you struggle. It's self explanatory you tank boss near pillars and line of sight that sheep as healer since it targets the person he is about to sheep.
    I don't recall ever being able to los a pve mob's abilities. (edit - obviously not including an intentional mechanic like arc explosion here since I imagine all sorts of internet arguing happening if I don't point out the obvious)

    Meanwhile I blew through M+ to the 15 key in about a dozen tries. 2 unsuccessful runs, one because of a dc. Pugged the first couple bosses in several of the previous mythic raid tiers. There's nothing I saw to convince me you're leet and playing on a completely different level in retail. Sorry, not impressed.

    That all was just my experience, we did HCs with almost same group as we farmed M0 during launch of SL and we had zero trouble in dungeon blues/t2 gear.
    Well, you do outgear most of it. That still doesn't explain the complete mismatch between what I experienced in Legion, BfA, Classic, and what you are trying to sell here. Its not really open to interpretation, its not like you could somehow believe this. So, we come to the psychological reasons.

    Retail WoW is a dying game, but there is a core group willing to throw a lot of time and money at it. No one in a real esport respects mmo raiding. It simply is gap in skill level that you suggest is there between classic and retail. The various fps and rts games that have millions of competitors striving to come out on top ensure that. If CS or LoL or maybe most of all still SC require like a 9 or 10 to come out on top then retail raids and M+ are like a 6 or 7 with Classic being like a 5. What really is the point of selling "leet skillz" when that isn't what the mmo genre does well anyways!?
    Last edited by Marakesh; 2021-06-12 at 09:45 PM.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    We got classic though, not vanilla. They are not the same games.
    I agree completely. The retail gloating about difficulty refuses to consider any nuances.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by agm114r View Post
    You guys have got to be kidding me.
    HC might be like M0, but normal is NOT. I tanked every 5-man dungeon in TBC, back then, and they're not that hard.

    People doing retail must have gotten soft...
    They aren't "that hard", but then M0 instances aren't "that hard" either. They're both on the "you need to somewhat pay attention to what the mob/boss are doing". Bosses in M0 are a bit harder, but trash in normal BC instances are a bit harder (I actually wiped a few times due to accidental aggro or overconfident tank in BC normal instances, don't remember seeing it in M0).
    HC are VASTLY more challenging than M0. Not even close. Probably equivalent to M5 to M15 depending on the instance.

  4. #204
    Equal to a m15?

    My day is off to a good start.

  5. #205
    Bloodsail Admiral Xykotic's Avatar
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    Heroics are difficult because health and defense levels are still fairly meagre. So tanks get global'd unless you cc and handle mobs appropriately.

    Mechanically its pretty much just normal. Its just a matter of bigger numbers.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Millyraynge View Post
    Some group setups have easier times than others. This works today the same way like it did back in the days. But the numbers are indeed pretty much tuned like back in the days -> unprepared tanks/groups are getting melted in some hc's.
    Unprepared people get melted on any difficulty. When we started running our +10s in retail we were 170-180 gear tops, no renown, no conduits, pre-nerfed dungeons. Wasn't a free loot, but was not too hard.
    Yesterday I tried pugging with people 200-210ilvl on +6 and healer left before the first boss. His mana kept running out - idk how he was healing, but he needed to drink after every pull so we just pulled without him several timer because I, as a tank, do good self-healing and there is little to no party damage as long as I decurse/interrupt. Obviously interrupts were rare and decurses only done by me as a tank, healer didn't bother.

    Are TBC HCs hard? For that kind of healer/DPS - yes, absolutely - I have seen that while doing classic Strat/Scholo where you see mages not using counter spell even once to get mobs to come into a clump. Where you can see a difference between tanks who can use his toolkit to get interrupts out/LoS to clump mobs up and the other one who just takes dmg into the face for some reason.

    Will it be hard for people who know how to run dungeons? No and it will get way easier over time. Our M0 runs before M+ went live in SL went from 5 -6hrs first week to less than 3-4hrs next week. Not because of the gear, but we just knew what bosses/trash did while first week we just read through the journal in 15sec and got fucked few times for that. No PTR testing, no previous research.

    Altho measuring difficulty by top 5% playerbase won't get you anywhere because most of the content would be easy then, while vast majority wouldn't be able to do it. I would say content completed by 25% of the players who actually tried to participate in it could be called hard. So you don't get people calling Hunstman fight hard, because only 10% of the players killed it, while in reality, only 15% actually even tried to kill it. aka 66% success rate in reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Equal to a m15?

    My day is off to a good start.
    Well, might be to Joey the Clicker for all we know. Some people have no trouble in +15 two chest with one player AFK while other people, with relatively the same gear are depleting it on regular basis. So depending on who you ask, +15 is either a joke or a challenge.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    After doing all Heroics except Arcatraz and Ramparts I can say my memory was right: they are on par with M0 dungeons in Shadowlands launch.
    I am confident that your statement is a lie. Mobs get a sweeping strike buff, if there are two in a pack, the melee can die instantly, by just missing a buff. In BF, small little ground effects can twoshot any DPS, and likely kill a tank if we wasnt topped. In BF you have to carefully deal with the adds before the 2nd boss, else the tank dies withing 0.5sec. In many dungeons, didnt remember if a mob fears -> wipe. Didn't remember x pat, and you cc along their path -> wipe.

    I am not saying that heroic dungeons are hard, I am doing easily 5 hcs each day, and did each heroic at least 2/3 times. Their mechanics are very easy, but have a small margin for error. M0 on the other hand are braindead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Savant View Post
    I actually started playing in TBC and I tanked with my droot, managed to down tier 5 raids and that was it. I remember hc dungeons as challenging, but doable during my kara/hc dungeon gear set up. CC was far important but maybe I was a noob back then

    My question is, people said in the past that wow vanilla raids were hard and it turned out they were piss easy, will this be the same with tbc hc dungeons?

    I am asking because perhaps there will be new metas etc
    It just depends. You can facetank the entire of SHH with a geared prot pala or struggle a lot with a prot warr. The dungeons are not throughput checks, they are just mechanic checks. And failing a mechanic, is very easily a wipe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxna View Post
    Shattered Halls and Shadow Lab were brutal and required cc
    They don't, they are pretty easy. The margins of error are small, that is all.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    I am confident that your statement is a lie. Mobs get a sweeping strike buff, if there are two in a pack, the melee can die instantly, by just missing a buff. In BF, small little ground effects can twoshot any DPS, and likely kill a tank if we wasnt topped. In BF you have to carefully deal with the adds before the 2nd boss, else the tank dies withing 0.5sec. In many dungeons, didnt remember if a mob fears -> wipe. Didn't remember x pat, and you cc along their path -> wipe.

    I am not saying that heroic dungeons are hard, I am doing easily 5 hcs each day, and did each heroic at least 2/3 times. Their mechanics are very easy, but have a small margin for error. M0 on the other hand are braindead.
    Not a lie. You were missing my point where I said at launch of SL = going as soon as they opened with Nyalotha epics/blue hc gear.

  9. #209
    Much easier than any m+ you don't severely overgear. There are a few clunky packs but overall you can pretty much autopilot, especially because classes are very easy to play.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    Not a lie. You were missing my point where I said at launch of SL = going as soon as they opened with Nyalotha epics/blue hc gear.
    Did both, and I disagree. M0 maybe teaches you boss mechanics, trash gets blasted away so fast, their mechanics just do not matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by facefist View Post
    Much easier than any m+ you don't severely overgear. There are a few clunky packs but overall you can pretty much autopilot, especially because classes are very easy to play.
    The difficulty is not in your "rotation/throughput", it is mostly about knowledge. Like the SHH pack, where you need CC if you dont have a prot pala, but you actually need to wait for a pat, which you do not see quite often, and kill this pat first, else the CC'd mob will pull it and wipe you. There are just many "f you" mechanics in TBC dungeons, which makes it easier in TBC hcs to wipe, than in retail. Or MC/Gauge on tanks... Depends on your definition of difficulty now i guess.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Well, might be to Joey the Clicker for all we know. Some people have no trouble in +15 two chest with one player AFK while other people, with relatively the same gear are depleting it on regular basis. So depending on who you ask, +15 is either a joke or a challenge.
    For all the BS splattered on these forums, the reality check is that wiping in normal instances is rather common and in heroics there is nearly always a few wipes. That's with people wearing appropriate gear (i.e. : wearing normal blues and T3, not being OVERgeared, because running heroics in raid gear is not the intended difficulty) and with people playing heroics at the moment being the rather hardcore crowd.

    Don't confuse the braggarts on the forum who are somehow always the best in their group and who refers to top 100 guilds as "average", with what actually happens on the ground.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post

    The difficulty is not in your "rotation/throughput", it is mostly about knowledge. Like the SHH pack, where you need CC if you dont have a prot pala, but you actually need to wait for a pat, which you do not see quite often, and kill this pat first, else the CC'd mob will pull it and wipe you. There are just many "f you" mechanics in TBC dungeons, which makes it easier in TBC hcs to wipe, than in retail. Or MC/Gauge on tanks... Depends on your definition of difficulty now i guess.
    The thing is that in retail you need more knowledge (a lot more instawipe things in high m+), while also having to do the throughput. I am obviously not talking about m0, but m+ level where you wipe if you fail the mechanic. TBC hc is harder than m0 for sure.

  13. #213
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Its not that many of the bosses are hard, but it is surely a question about how well you are prepared.

    Most groups have more than enough output to deal with all mob packs and bosses, but if you put on an elitist mentality and just push hard, wipes happen all the time. The best heroic groups are taking it slow and steady, which makes the dungeon runs really easy. But then you get the shadowpriest who pulls aggro, the prot paladin who procs CC targets or just somebody who thinks they can tank a mob only to get 2 shot....

    So the dungeons are easy enough, but damm is there some people, who think they are still in retail and can do whatever they want.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by facefist View Post
    The thing is that in retail you need more knowledge (a lot more instawipe things in high m+), while also having to do the throughput. I am obviously not talking about m0, but m+ level where you wipe if you fail the mechanic. TBC hc is harder than m0 for sure.
    Yeah, but retail is far more obvious, with ingame guides etc. There is no information about x patrol out there, so that is kind of difficulty as well.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Its not that many of the bosses are hard, but it is surely a question about how well you are prepared.

    Most groups have more than enough output to deal with all mob packs and bosses, but if you put on an elitist mentality and just push hard, wipes happen all the time. The best heroic groups are taking it slow and steady, which makes the dungeon runs really easy. But then you get the shadowpriest who pulls aggro, the prot paladin who procs CC targets or just somebody who thinks they can tank a mob only to get 2 shot....

    So the dungeons are easy enough, but damm is there some people, who think they are still in retail and can do whatever they want.
    Well, if you are prepared you can push as hard as you please and best groups don't go slower than needed to be "extra" safe. Best groups take harder more efficient route which requires execution and they execute on the strat. That's what people do in retail too and it's certainly not "do whatever you want" because you literally know what you will have to do at what moment or you will die. It's not elitist mentality to want to be efficient. If you fail to execute and start blaming everyone for being shit while it was your fuck up, sure, that's elitist bs, but seeking good execution is much more rewarding and gives much more pleasure than eliminating all the challenge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by facefist View Post
    The thing is that in retail you need more knowledge (a lot more instawipe things in high m+), while also having to do the throughput. I am obviously not talking about m0, but m+ level where you wipe if you fail the mechanic. TBC hc is harder than m0 for sure.
    Put m0 in context. M0 in current condition with fully unlocked conduits and everyone wearing a legendary is very much different to what we had at the start where everyone went into m0 with no legendary item, one or two conduits and 160ilvl. To compare m0 currently you would have to clear heroics with fully decked equiped raid gear.

  16. #216
    Neither tbc heroics or retail mythic+ are hard. Heroics may start harder when you’re in leveling gear, but eventually are walks in the park. M+ may never be a walk in the park at high levels, but they are remarkably easy still. Pull here, kill this, kite this, etc

    Let’s not pretend any version of WoW is a high skill game because, it isn’t. You can play WoW at a high level sure, but even the best WoW players pale in comparison to like top sc2 gamers

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Neither tbc heroics or retail mythic+ are hard. Heroics may start harder when you’re in leveling gear, but eventually are walks in the park. M+ may never be a walk in the park at high levels, but they are remarkably easy still. Pull here, kill this, kite this, etc

    Let’s not pretend any version of WoW is a high skill game because, it isn’t. You can play WoW at a high level sure, but even the best WoW players pale in comparison to like top sc2 gamers
    sc2 is not a high skill game either

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoLarcos View Post
    sc2 is not a high skill game either
    notice i said "top" sc2 gamers. as in, the high end.

    No M+ or Mythic raid can compare difficulty and skill wise, with some of that high end competitive PVP gaming out there. It's just a fact that we WoW players have to accept. Even the top arena teams in WoW pale in comparison to something like DOTA 2, or LoL, fast paced FPS, etc.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Well, might be to Joey the Clicker for all we know. Some people have no trouble in +15 two chest with one player AFK while other people, with relatively the same gear are depleting it on regular basis. So depending on who you ask, +15 is either a joke or a challenge.
    Hm? Its not about it being easy or not, but if its comperable to hc dungeons in TBC. +7 maybe, SL that is, back in the day. But now, in TBC classic? A +3, top.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Not at the start, but with t5 gear
    "when you vastly outgear the content, it is easy"

    holy shit what a shocking revelation

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