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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    ellieg beat me to a part of it. Here we are, over a decade later and we already know what's BiS. We didn't know back then. We didn't know what the most optimal talent builds were. We have over a decade of knowledge (and practice for people who played a lot of private servers) that we did not have in 2007. I'm sure there are even addons we didn't have.
    I more or less agree, but I think prior knowledge of the specifics of vanilla is overstated in terms of impact.

    It certainly helps to have a BiS list, (More so for casual raiders.) but I think general knowledge of how wow works being so prolific is much more important than the specific knowledge of things like BiS lists and talent builds from vanilla.

    Knowing things like doing damage is good and crit gives big big damage is imo way more important than having easily accessible BiS lists. As ellieg pointed out, in original vanilla a lot of people went for stuff that is obviously bad that you don't need specific knowledge of vanilla to know it's bad. For example, no one that's gotten multiple AOTCs in BFA and Shadowlands would ever even consider gearing for agi on a mage for dodge for endgame raiding. They'd be looking for stats that pump damage.

    If I had to rank order things, (Minus world buffs.) I would rate the differences as follows from largest to smallest.

    1. Player skill and general knowledge.

    2. Better PCs and internet.

    3. A more serious progress focused mindset cultivated by over a decade of retail's raiding meta.

    4. Specific knowledge such as boss mechanics, ready made BiS lists and optimized talent builds.

    5. Balance changes such as 1.12 talents and post nerf versions of bosses.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Exer View Post
    Man you're overthinking. The whole reason is simple, 1.12 talents + better accessibility to guides than in 2004. I never heard of mages needing agi gear, and tanks were more than just spamming 1 ability at full rage bar. Those videos sound nitpicky rather than the norm back then.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WHdCCE5HHk

    That's the world first Onyxia kill according to Method's world first timeline on their site. You gonna watch that video and tell me those players aren't pants on head retarded by today's standards?

    This is some random guild from classic killing Patchwerk with no world buffs. 3 Minute fight. https://youtu.be/oin2gvAr1_M?t=1233

    This is a very early kill of Patchwerk from vanilla, not WF because there's no video of WF. 7 Minute fight. This is also courtesy of Method's main site. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhqIp6EsXFE

    You can't blame Naxx shit on 1.12 talents.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Exer View Post
    Man you're overthinking. The whole reason is simple, 1.12 talents + better accessibility to guides than in 2004. I never heard of mages needing agi gear, and tanks were more than just spamming 1 ability at full rage bar. Those videos sound nitpicky rather than the norm back then.
    I can vividly remember playing with zoltar, a warlock with a Firestone who meleed. Warrior tanks who either didn't sunder, or 5 stacked it and stopped. Most ppl didn't understand the debuff cap either. Paladins who refused to wear anything but plate and classes getting mad at the ones that did. Vanilla was a wild place at least on my server.

  3. #243
    [QUOTE=OrcsRLame;53282896]I more or less agree, but I think prior knowledge of the specifics of vanilla is overstated in terms of impact.

    It certainly helps to have a BiS list, (More so for casual raiders.) but I think general knowledge of how wow works being so prolific is much more important than the specific knowledge of things like BiS lists and talent builds from vanilla.

    Knowing things like doing damage is good and crit gives big big damage is imo way more important than having easily accessible BiS lists. As ellieg pointed out, in original vanilla a lot of people went for stuff that is obviously bad that you don't need specific knowledge of vanilla to know it's bad. For example, no one that's gotten multiple AOTCs in BFA and Shadowlands would ever even consider gearing for agi on a mage for dodge for endgame raiding. They'd be looking for stats that pump damage.
    /QUOTE]

    Prior knowledge is only one slice of the pie. We also have TONS of videos on how to low-man or cheese content that we did not have back in 2007. We have more resources overall that we did not have.

  4. #244
    I faced the ULTIMATE roadblock 3 days ago when I tanked HC mana-tombs on my druid...NO FUCKING WAY THATS BALANCED. 5-6k hits, cant be resisted and armor does not help...gg onm 1st boss. We skipped the boss then continued. But besides that the HC 5 mans just takes some focus, smart pulls and some CC. Good DPS also goes a long way.

    Havent done HC BF or SHH, and not planning to...Dont see the point.
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  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post

    Prior knowledge is only one slice of the pie. We also have TONS of videos on how to low-man or cheese content that we did not have back in 2007. We have more resources overall that we did not have.
    I haven't done a single pull any different to how I did on 07.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    But if it's free2play, how can it be pay2win?

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I haven't done a single pull any different to how I did on 07.
    I find that unlikely. In 2007 most groups did heavy CC and single target burned marks. In 2021 most heroic groups 0 CC for most pulls, and it's mostly just a big cleave fest. I mean maybe you're not doing cheese tactics, I haven't been doing that either but for sure dungeons don't play out anything like they did back then, playerbase plays with a different mindset.

    Annoying mindset if you're a Warrior tank too.

    I faced the ULTIMATE roadblock 3 days ago when I tanked HC mana-tombs on my druid...NO FUCKING WAY THATS BALANCED. 5-6k hits, cant be resisted and armor does not help...gg onm 1st boss. We skipped the boss then continued. But besides that the HC 5 mans just takes some focus, smart pulls and some CC. Good DPS also goes a long way.

    Havent done HC BF or SHH, and not planning to...Dont see the point.
    You can only reduce the damage with avoidance and resistance, that means Paladin Aura, Priest buff, grounding totem can also suck up some casts. Druids have it hardest by the sounds, Warriors have it easiest. I just take a Priest with me and stop dpsing when he puts up the damage reflect shield, that is literally all that is required.

    Invite a Shadow Priest and a Shaman, if you're really determined buy some Shadow resist greens from AH. The first boss in Heroic Arcatraz is worse, because it deletes the entire group if you don't have Shadow resist of some form.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2021-07-20 at 12:26 AM.
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  7. #247
    I think in the end all that matters is it is enjoyable at least.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    I find that unlikely. In 2007 most groups did heavy CC and single target burned marks. In 2021 most heroic groups 0 CC for most pulls, and it's mostly just a big cleave fest. I mean maybe you're not doing cheese tactics, I haven't been doing that either but for sure dungeons don't play out anything like they did back then, playerbase plays with a different mindset.

    Annoying mindset if you're a Warrior tank too.
    So basically your response is "I reject your reality and substitute my own". For those who played ultra casually in TBC, they might find this all new and confusing, but for those who did not play that way in TBC, its the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    But if it's free2play, how can it be pay2win?

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So basically your response is "I reject your reality and substitute my own". For those who played ultra casually in TBC, they might find this all new and confusing, but for those who did not play that way in TBC, its the same.
    Sure it is. Doing 3k dps single target in T4 is also the same too, true. Solo tanking/healing Karazhan in pre-raid/T4 gear also the same yeah? Paladin tanks being super widespread is also exactly like it was in January 2007 where every main tank even at world first level was an effective health stacking Prot Warrior. And every tank in 2007 stacked threat heavy gear as a priority because healers could keep them alive no problem yeah? So much is exactly the same, you're right.

    Nothing is the same as it was in 2007, my current Classic guild would completely dump on world first guilds from 2007 and make them look like clueless fools, pugs are AOE fests even when you don't have a Paladin tank. Almost every aspect of TBC Classic is nothing like it was in TBC 2007.
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  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Sure it is. Doing 3k dps single target in T4 is also the same too, true. Solo tanking/healing Karazhan in pre-raid/T4 gear also the same yeah? Paladin tanks being super widespread is also exactly like it was in January 2007 where every main tank even at world first level was an effective health stacking Prot Warrior. And every tank in 2007 stacked threat heavy gear as a priority because healers could keep them alive no problem yeah? So much is exactly the same, you're right.

    Nothing is the same as it was in 2007, my current Classic guild would completely dump on world first guilds from 2007 and make them look like clueless fools, pugs are AOE fests even when you don't have a Paladin tank. Almost every aspect of TBC Classic is nothing like it was in TBC 2007.
    Look at those goalposts move - now we are specifically talking about JANUARY 2007, raids, and dps numbers, and you being of a WF standard. Those posts are not even on the same field anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    But if it's free2play, how can it be pay2win?

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Look at those goalposts move - now we are specifically talking about JANUARY 2007, raids, and dps numbers, and you being of a WF standard. Those posts are not even on the same field anymore.
    Well you made the ridiculous claim that the dungeon game was not commonly about CC, mark target, pull, single target burn when that was exactly how it was for the vast majority of players and groups, certainly in pugs and with non pala tanks. And why wouldn't you compare the game to when the content was relevant? "Oh bro back in april 2008 farming our Sunwell badge gear we used to AOE pull everything"

    The whole game has changed, the way pugs play in Heroics is nothing like it was in TBC, literally nothing. Not only that but player perception of classes is also different, theorycrafting around classes is different, players are after different items.. The whole game is different to the original TBC, down to bugs that change class performance, bugs that change boss behaviour. And you're sitting here talking about how leet you were in the orignal TBC and my current guild (not a world top guild) plays better than any TBC guild, including world first guilds.

    That's not the fault of the TBC players/guilds based on knowledge/hardware of the time, but to say things haven't changed at any level of content or play is ridiculous and laughable.
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  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Well you made the ridiculous claim that the dungeon game was not commonly about CC, mark target, pull, single target burn when that was exactly how it was for the vast majority of players and groups, certainly in pugs and with non pala tanks. And why wouldn't you compare the game to when the content was relevant? "Oh bro back in april 2008 farming our Sunwell badge gear we used to AOE pull everything"

    The whole game has changed, the way pugs play in Heroics is nothing like it was in TBC, literally nothing. Not only that but player perception of classes is also different, theorycrafting around classes is different, players are after different items.. The whole game is different to the original TBC, down to bugs that change class performance, bugs that change boss behaviour. And you're sitting here talking about how leet you were in the orignal TBC and my current guild (not a world top guild) plays better than any TBC guild, including world first guilds.

    That's not the fault of the TBC players/guilds based on knowledge/hardware of the time, but to say things haven't changed at any level of content or play is ridiculous and laughable.
    Now its about PUGS? please, leave the goalposts alone - they are lost and confused. I said nothing has changed for me - me and the friends i play with played in TBC, and are playing now exactly the same. I even acknowledged that for those who were ultra casual back then, but have improved over the years, this is probably new and different for them, which sounds like the case for you, and thats totally fine. Even the pugs I have done have been exactly the same AOE pulls and fast clears that I was doing in TBC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    But if it's free2play, how can it be pay2win?

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Now its about PUGS? please, leave the goalposts alone - they are lost and confused. I said nothing has changed for me - me and the friends i play with played in TBC, and are playing now exactly the same. I even acknowledged that for those who were ultra casual back then, but have improved over the years, this is probably new and different for them, which sounds like the case for you, and thats totally fine. Even the pugs I have done have been exactly the same AOE pulls and fast clears that I was doing in TBC.
    Actually I was a very decent player in the original TBC and raided in a decent (by 2007 standards) guild. The same now, 99% average on WCL, cleared all content in greens/blues the day I hit 70. But you're damn right I improved, not with the basic gameplay but the understanding of overall strategy, positioning, cooldown usage, raid comp etc etc. I'm doing more dps in T4 than was common in T5/6 content in the original TBC, and that's across the board for pretty much all players.


    And of course I was talking about dungeon pugs, no goalposts have moved as that's exactly what I'm talking about in my first post. Are you saying you never played in pugs? At least 50% of my dungeon experience has been pugs, whether in 2007/8 or now. The different is massive, people play nothing like they used to. All your post comes across like is "I was so leet in 2007 that I didn't have to change anything"

    Which I think is just complete nonsense.
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  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Actually I was a very decent player in the original TBC and raided in a decent (by 2007 standards) guild. The same now, 99% average on WCL, cleared all content in greens/blues the day I hit 70. But you're damn right I improved, not with the basic gameplay but the understanding of overall strategy, positioning, cooldown usage, raid comp etc etc. I'm doing more dps in T4 than was common in T5/6 content in the original TBC, and that's across the board for pretty much all players.


    And of course I was talking about dungeon pugs, no goalposts have moved as that's exactly what I'm talking about in my first post. Are you saying you never played in pugs? At least 50% of my dungeon experience has been pugs, whether in 2007/8 or now. The different is massive, people play nothing like they used to. All your post comes across like is "I was so leet in 2007 that I didn't have to change anything"

    Which I think is just complete nonsense.
    Right, so you are the one saying you are a better player than the world first raiders in 2007, but its ME that is talking about being "leet". You just confused yourself and dug a hole, and now your desperately trying to dig your way out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    But if it's free2play, how can it be pay2win?

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Right, so you are the one saying you are a better player than the world first raiders in 2007, but its ME that is talking about being "leet". You just confused yourself and dug a hole, and now your desperately trying to dig your way out.
    Did you purposely miss the point? There are hundreds of guilds who are better than world first guilds from 2007, the idea that gameplay trends didn't change since 2007 is ridiculous and either you're saying you were so leet in 2007, or that you're so bad now that you'd fit in well back in 2007 because you haven't improved at all, in spite of everything.

    So I gave you the benefit of the doubt to say you're better than you was in 2007, because the average playerbase is much much better, and the level of the best players is much higher, and everything has changed. You're the one trying to dig yourself out of saying something so ridiculous as arguing with people who are pointing out that player trends and strategy has moved on massively.

    It has, you're wrong. Now you can continue to beat your chest and argue with me but It doesn't matter how leet you think you were in 2007 nobody is buying it.
    I7 6700K : 16GB DDR4 3000 : GTX1070 : Firestudio : Naga : G27

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Did you purposely miss the point? There are hundreds of guilds who are better than world first guilds from 2007, the idea that gameplay trends didn't change since 2007 is ridiculous and either you're saying you were so leet in 2007, or that you're so bad now that you'd fit in well back in 2007 because you haven't improved at all, in spite of everything.

    So I gave you the benefit of the doubt to say you're better than you was in 2007, because the average playerbase is much much better, and the level of the best players is much higher, and everything has changed. You're the one trying to dig yourself out of saying something so ridiculous as arguing with people who are pointing out that player trends and strategy has moved on massively.

    It has, you're wrong. Now you can continue to beat your chest and argue with me but It doesn't matter how leet you think you were in 2007 nobody is buying it.
    There is nothing even remotely unusual about me saying that I am doing the same pulls I was in 07. That is the comment that caused you to flip out and start talking about mythic world first raiders and addons and dps and pugs and JANUARY 07 and how good you are now and all these completely random additional things. MY statement was VERY simple, and I stand by it 100%.

    Since you have gone off on so many unrelated tangents, im guessing you have forgotten what the original comment was, so ill link it below for you:

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I haven't done a single pull any different to how I did on 07.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-07-20 at 05:06 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    But if it's free2play, how can it be pay2win?

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    ellieg beat me to a part of it. Here we are, over a decade later and we already know what's BiS. We didn't know back then. We didn't know what the most optimal talent builds were. We have over a decade of knowledge (and practice for people who played a lot of private servers) that we did not have in 2007. I'm sure there are even addons we didn't have.
    Honestly, even without knowing how the fights work beforehand, most classic encounters are mechanically much more simple than modern raid encounters, and could be figured out by a team of modern raiders with no knowledge of classic much more quickly. We have a 17 year old game that the developers have constantly built layer upon layer on top of the previous iteration. Strip all of that away to 2004 World of Warcraft, and you have a very simple game by modern standards.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Since you have gone off on so many unrelated tangents, im guessing you have forgotten what the original comment was, so ill link it below for you:
    No the original comment follows a prior discussion with 2 other users, which I was chiming in on, the context is important. You saying "I pull the first pack in Underbog just the same" would be completely irrelevant to that topic, and that should be blatantly obvious by the direction and content of my post. Clarify your point/example if you want, because I'm of the opinion that everything has changed, and that has nothing to do with how casual I may or may not have been.

    I'm seeing double pack pulls with full mob control using slows/short CC and focused dps burns, target switching, taunt tennis and stuff that would have wiped groups all day and night in 2007, and people pulling it off no problem now in pre-raid/T4 gear at that. Players also have no respect for threat these days, but tanks have for the most part adjusted. Just the way people play is so different, and if you've been hiding in a cave and not experiencing that then I just can't see how your insight has any value here.

    I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, clarify your point (within the context of the prior overall discussion).
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2021-07-20 at 05:33 AM.
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  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrcsRLame View Post
    That's the world first Onyxia kill according to Method's world first timeline on their site. You gonna watch that video and tell me those players aren't pants on head retarded by today's standards?
    Yeah it was quite obvious even back in BC/LK how badly vanilla raiders sucked. I loved to watch Naxx videos of top guilds and being horrified how their MTs don't use shieldslam or shieldblock properly and how some of their raiders just stand around scratching their asses. Absolutely shitty gameplay everywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrcsRLame View Post
    This is some random guild from classic killing Patchwerk with no world buffs. 3 Minute fight. https://youtu.be/oin2gvAr1_M?t=1233
    Holy fuck, the streamer is insufferable

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Djuntas View Post
    I faced the ULTIMATE roadblock 3 days ago when I tanked HC mana-tombs on my druid...NO FUCKING WAY THATS BALANCED. 5-6k hits, cant be resisted and armor does not help...gg onm 1st boss.
    Just pop some shadow res (pala aura of priest buff), then it's healable if everyone stops dps during the reflect phase.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    Honestly, even without knowing how the fights work beforehand, most classic encounters are mechanically much more simple than modern raid encounters, and could be figured out by a team of modern raiders with no knowledge of classic much more quickly. We have a 17 year old game that the developers have constantly built layer upon layer on top of the previous iteration. Strip all of that away to 2004 World of Warcraft, and you have a very simple game by modern standards.
    True but modern encounters are plug and play with most gear.

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