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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Felrane View Post
    They wont be hard. You will have to worry about the tank being one shot untill he gets gear but by the time everyone is in teir4/5 gear they are faceroll. Pally tanks will be everywhere this time around which makes them even easier. If we are using retail level it would be like 180 geared players trying to clear 10s. Then get 226 and it still be a 10.
    I was trying to be sarcastic.
    "I feel bad for Limit , they put in so many hours only to come in second place" - Methodjosh

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Felrane View Post
    They wont be hard. You will have to worry about the tank being one shot untill he gets gear but by the time everyone is in teir4/5 gear they are faceroll. Pally tanks will be everywhere this time around which makes them even easier. If we are using retail level it would be like 180 geared players trying to clear 10s. Then get 226 and it still be a 10.
    Let's not exaggerate, it's more like a 180 trying to clear a 3 or 4, my prediction is people will stomp hc like nothing the second they get an acceptable level of gear that are above greens

  3. #143
    They were just built differently. The point of a classic and tbc dungeon was to be challenging for players who didn’t know the mechanics and were figuring things out as they went.

    That’s a far cry from the many layered difficulty we see with m+ today.

    So if you go in there not knowing anything, yes it’ll be tricky. But once there aren’t any surprises it’s faceroll.
    Every single wow player should always try to make their own groups. Then you'd just have thousands of groups in group finder, without a single applicant.

  4. #144
    Warchief Rusken's Avatar
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    Some of them will be difficult for pugs no matter what, simply due to the speedrun nature of dungeon groups these days. People will rush in to packs that are meant to be CC'd and without decent co-ordination will destroy even geared groups. The big packs in Shattered Halls and Shadow Lab are the obvious ones, and I remember a few packs in Steamvault being a real nuisance with caster mobs 2 shotting healers if the tank doesn't hold aggro well. Arcatraz as well has some nasty caster mobs.

    Of course guild groups and any pug of good players won't have any issue but I can definitely see people getting too cocky in their skill and wiping ill-prepared groups.

  5. #145
    Aside from the initial shock of being hurt by the hc mobs while wearing crap gear, the only think that people need to "learn" is that (aside from paladins maybe) tanks don't magically magned the mobs on them by using 2 abilities. Even without raid gear utilized, 0CC pulling was a thing sooner than many of us want to remember.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    The mobs melee really hard but it's not mechanically challenging or anything.

    Tanks in blues might have like 15,000 HP.

    Some base melee damage comparisons

    Maexxna: 8,475 - 9,727
    Laughing Skull Legionnaire: 7,785 - 8,330

    Sapphiron: 10,680 - 12,258
    Coilfang Defender: 11,837 - 12,664

    Gordok Reaver (Dire Maul): 807 - 960
    Shattered Hand Legionnaire: 9,877 - 10,462
    I started in BC about halfway through and I was a prot warrior and because I was coming in fresh my gear was full dungeon/rep blues with no PVP gear, crafted epics, badge items or raid items.

    I had 12k HP with full gems and enchants and it wasn’t until I got some S2 PVP items, badge gear and Sunwell patch items like the vendor shield and stam trinket from Magister’s Terrace that I got up to 15k or so.

    Raid tanks in T5 might have 15k.

    Heroic mobs hit like freight trains on blue gear. It was super rough

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Considering they’re being done on beta at 68 by people in T3 gear, I’m gonna say you’re wrong.
    You can't enter a heroic dungeon at 68, you need to be 70. The ones in beta are the normal version of the dungeon.
    If anything, it speaks pretty well of the BC dungeons if people are mixing up the normal version with the heroic one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    The mobs melee really hard but it's not mechanically challenging or anything.

    Tanks in blues might have like 15,000 HP.
    People in blues have 8-12k, not 15.
    Last edited by Akka; 2021-04-06 at 09:05 AM.

  8. #148
    Bloodsail Admiral Xykotic's Avatar
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    There are pulls with hard hitting mobs combined with stuns/silence/fear that can be problematic if you're just zugzuging.

    I expect the main difficulty will be getting tanks that can realistically tank stuff and healers that can realistically react to burst damage. On pservers atleast you see a lot of freshly dinged tanks in greens signing up for heroics they have no business in, or healers that spam their main heal, then go oom and fail.

    I imagine it'll be fine for the most part though.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    People in blues have 8-12k, not 15.
    I was just going off memory, but I do have a screenshot of our tier 5 tank with 14,900 hp totally unbuffed. I imagine with fort/kings/commanding shout a blue tank might approach 15k?

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    I was just going off memory, but I do have a screenshot of our tier 5 tank with 14,900 hp totally unbuffed. I imagine with fort/kings/commanding shout a blue tank might approach 15k?
    Buffed, yes, I was speaking unbuffed, as you can't rely on having all (or even most) buffs in 5-men.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    You can't enter a heroic dungeon at 68, you need to be 70. The ones in beta are the normal version of the dungeon.
    You just need the key, people are doing heroic dungeons in beta.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    You can't enter a heroic dungeon at 68, you need to be 70. The ones in beta are the normal version of the dungeon.
    If anything, it speaks pretty well of the BC dungeons if people are mixing up the normal version with the heroic one.
    untrue, it is very possible

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Xykotic View Post
    There are pulls with hard hitting mobs combined with stuns/silence/fear that can be problematic if you're just zugzuging.

    I expect the main difficulty will be getting tanks that can realistically tank stuff and healers that can realistically react to burst damage. On pservers atleast you see a lot of freshly dinged tanks in greens signing up for heroics they have no business in, or healers that spam their main heal, then go oom and fail.

    I imagine it'll be fine for the most part though.
    I remember when I dinged my warrior when the keys were already nerfed to only require honored. I tanked them all with basically questing gear and a few pvp pieces. The only hard ones were shattered halls and shadow labyrinth.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    I remember when I dinged my warrior when the keys were already nerfed to only require honored. I tanked them all with basically questing gear and a few pvp pieces. The only hard ones were shattered halls and shadow labyrinth.
    Well yeah, Heroics got nerfed multiple times over the course of TBC.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    You just need the key, people are doing heroic dungeons in beta.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    untrue, it is very possible
    I'm pretty sure you needed to be 70 to enter the heroic instance regardless of having the key or not.
    Maybe they changed it later and I remember post-change, or they changed it for the beta ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    I remember when I dinged my warrior when the keys were already nerfed to only require honored. I tanked them all with basically questing gear and a few pvp pieces. The only hard ones were shattered halls and shadow labyrinth.
    Some mob in heroic (the big demon in Blood Furnace, the big Bog Lords in Underbog and some others) were able to HIT (not crit) a blue-geared warrior TANK (so with 10 % reduc due to stance and reduction due to armor + shield) for over 8k before nerfs.
    And in some cases (like the said Bog Lords), you had to fight two of them at the same time. We used a hunter to kite one while we hoped the tank survive the first one
    Definitely not something you could tank in quest greens.
    Last edited by Akka; 2021-04-06 at 11:51 AM.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    I'm pretty sure you needed to be 70 to enter the heroic instance regardless of having the key or not.
    Maybe they changed it later and I remember post-change, or they changed it for the beta ?

    Some mob in heroic (the big demon in Blood Furnace, the big Bog Lords in Underbog and some others) were able to HIT (not crit) a blue-geared warrior TANK (so with 10 % reduc due to stance and reduction due to armor + shield) for over 8k before nerfs.
    And in some cases (like the said Bog Lords), you had to fight two of them at the same time. We used a hunter to kite one while we hoped the tank survive the first one
    Definitely not something you could tank in quest greens.
    Maybe with crushing, but the thing is vs low number of mobs you can keep up shield block 100% uptime or near there, which means you have over 100% avoidance for each attack and that really smooths out the damage. Not many warriors did this outside of maintanking raids (who knew how to actually tank), but helps a ton when you can do it.

  17. #157
    knowing the dungeons, and utilizing control mechanics and interrupts should make for some smooth runs. but they're harder than retail normal/heroics, not as hard as mythic+.

    biggest different will be taking your time to manage your pulls cleanly, and resisting the urge to try to AOE spam the place.

    i prefer the older heroic design that rewards class knowledge / unique abilities and is more tactical. but mythic+ is more kinetic and action filled, appeals to different types of players.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Xykotic View Post
    There are pulls with hard hitting mobs combined with stuns/silence/fear that can be problematic if you're just zugzuging.

    I expect the main difficulty will be getting tanks that can realistically tank stuff and healers that can realistically react to burst damage. On pservers atleast you see a lot of freshly dinged tanks in greens signing up for heroics they have no business in, or healers that spam their main heal, then go oom and fail.

    I imagine it'll be fine for the most part though.
    Also keep in mind that the tuning on private servers could be different than Classic or Live, plus as others have mentioned, tuning was done at various points in TBC not just to dungeons, but to classes as well. I won't pretend to know the specifics there, but the point is, it's complicated to say how hard they "should be" or even how hard they actually were - someone may be talking about dinging 70 with full T3 the second week of retail vs. someone else dinging 70 in greens later on. It's apples and oranges.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by probert View Post
    knowing the dungeons, and utilizing control mechanics and interrupts should make for some smooth runs. but they're harder than retail normal/heroics, not as hard as mythic+.

    biggest different will be taking your time to manage your pulls cleanly, and resisting the urge to try to AOE spam the place.

    i prefer the older heroic design that rewards class knowledge / unique abilities and is more tactical. but mythic+ is more kinetic and action filled, appeals to different types of players.
    In addition, TBC kits were pretty sparse on a lot of classes (except maybe shaman, mage, rogue who did have a huge number of abilities even in TBC), like every class didn't have a heal, immunity, defensive cooldown, etc. So if you got aggro you might just die immediately unless you had bubble or cloak or whatever. It's a totally different environment, which I personally enjoy more than the "dance" of M+ (especially as a melee). But at the end of the day, it's not better or worse, just different.

    My personal preference is the focus on knowing your class, rotation, gearing, etc. where much of the "skill" is done in preparation. The rotations were easy (one button in many cases), but it's getting consumables, gear, enchants, raid comp etc. all nailed down first. Then the execution isn't so difficult.
    Last edited by Varaben; 2021-04-06 at 01:38 PM.
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  19. #159
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    It starts out hard. Its not because the tacs are hard, but the mobs are just designed to hit really hard.

    Like, some mobs in the Slave Pens will take out a tank, if they are pulled in groups of 3 or more. Especially the guard naga, as i remember a tank pala actually getting 1 shot.

    But people will expect this and will kite the hell out of everything that is just a smidge hard-hitting.

    And as with everything else in past WoW, people have optimized problems out of the game. TBC will be no different.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    I'm pretty sure you needed to be 70 to enter the heroic instance regardless of having the key or not.
    Maybe they changed it later and I remember post-change, or they changed it for the beta ?
    Well there are streams of people entering hc dungeons.
    I dont remember hearing anything about a dungeon cap, because once you hit revered, you were 70 anyways.

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