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  1. #161
    I am Murloc! Sting's Avatar
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    Some trash hits incredibly hard (~8k white hits on plate, mind flay ticks for 4k each come to mind) but the bosses are mostly easy. Clearable by a freshly geared group of people who know what they're doing.
    ( ° ͜ʖ͡°)╭∩╮

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    The fun factor would go up 1000x if WQs existed in vanilla

  2. #162
    my new lvl 70 group (of hardcore raiders) got owned on the 2nd boss of heroic black morass and we did setthek halls today (heroic) and wiped a bunch on the first boss that spawns all the eles. we eventually found a strat that worked for our comp, but it was tough. the mobs in there are tough on the tanks too.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    After doing all Heroics except Arcatraz and Ramparts I can say my memory was right: they are on par with M0 dungeons in Shadowlands launch.
    I can't say for SL (stopped playing at Legion), but I can say safely that even normal high-level instances are already about as hard as M0 in Legion, so I'm having big doubt about heroics not being noticeably harder.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    After doing all Heroics except Arcatraz and Ramparts I can say my memory was right: they are on par with M0 dungeons in Shadowlands launch.
    Really depends a lot on what class/role you are playing.

  5. #165
    Brewmaster Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    I don’t think they’ll present nearly the same challenge. A lot of the “difficulty” was just knowing which hard hitting abilities to CC. For people who’ve played any of the last retail expansions, it’s a watered down Mythic.

    I think the challenging part will be getting people to remember simple shit like attunements, managing MCs, and following marks (depending on tank in the run).

    I suspect a heavy meta shift to Pala/Druid tanks and melee cleaves. Feral Druid, 3x FWar, Resto Shaman for maximum lols and zero downtime cleavefest.
    Mythic+ is "See how much trash you can pull before it overwhelm's you." Hc dungeons in TBC were not that.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    Mythic+ is "See how much trash you can pull before it overwhelm's you." Hc dungeons in TBC were not that.
    Not at the start, but with t5 gear way back when I played an Hpal me and the guild bear tank chain pulled Shattered Halls, with some mana breaks. Of course we experimented to see how far we would be able to push ourselves and knew when to take breaks and split packs, but as we reached that point any further gear upgrade only made things faster.

    It stayed true in Magister Terrace as well, with way more emphasis on los pulls.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    Mythic+ is "See how much trash you can pull before it overwhelm's you." Hc dungeons in TBC were not that.
    yeah they are,m+ and tbc heroics are basicaly the same,you cant make big pulls in m+ either unless you have a way to aoe silence them and blow em up really fast,because if you dont,they will cast nasty stuff that will kill you

    the real difference is in the classes and their utility to shut down dangerous mobs,in tbc that simply doesnt exist as much as in modern times

    also in tbc everything can be interupted or dispeled,in sl many mobs have stuff that cant be either of those

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    yeah they are,m+ and tbc heroics are basicaly the same,you cant make big pulls in m+ either unless you have a way to aoe silence them and blow em up really fast,because if you dont,they will cast nasty stuff that will kill you

    the real difference is in the classes and their utility to shut down dangerous mobs,in tbc that simply doesnt exist as much as in modern times

    also in tbc everything can be interupted or dispeled,in sl many mobs have stuff that cant be either of those
    From the stories people are telling HC dungeon trash sound like a +20 for me (hard hitting, intense CC and coordination) while bosses, let's face it, are nothing in TBC. But on the other hand there are people who struggle to do +15s in 220 gear so idk where is the line. Could be as easy as a +10 if you are ok geared and well coordinated team (everyone was telling me how Strat was hard and while we wiped few times due to butt pulls because of low lvl players aggro range,in reality we wet there as a group of people who are familiar with cc/loss/kiting and it was a joke) or it could be as hard as +20 DoS, if your party is bad at using their toolkit/don't know what mechanics there are and so on.

    Difference being, that TBC HCs will never be harder than it is right now.
    Last edited by erifwodahs; 2021-06-07 at 09:33 AM.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellatrex-Saga View Post
    my new lvl 70 group (of hardcore raiders) got owned on the 2nd boss of heroic black morass and we did setthek halls today (heroic) and wiped a bunch on the first boss that spawns all the eles. we eventually found a strat that worked for our comp, but it was tough. the mobs in there are tough on the tanks too.
    The second boss is incredible hard in Black Morass, but the rest of the bosses is often really just a joke. The easiest way (seems that chrono beacon no longer works on bosses, in vanilla tbc it worked when you summoned it a bit away from the boss) to overcome it then is using a paladin-tank: the healing debuff kills the tank, so either you have 2 tanks or an offtank or as said use a paladin-tank that uses divine shield after 4-5 stacks, and instantly disable it.

    Trash is far more dangerous.
    Last edited by Velerios; 2021-06-07 at 09:37 AM.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    The second boss is incredible hard in Black Morass
    I remember him well because he was a fucking WALL for us at the time.
    But that was just, in fact, due to his mortal wound stacking and we were a bit clueless as to how to deal with it. Once we understood we had to manage so it fade (either having a high-avoidance tank or off-tanking the boss for 8 seconds), it was a much easier go.
    That's typically the kind of fight that were very hard at the time but which is made much easier due to experience/guide and which make people saying "TBC wasn't that hard, you just had to [do stuff]".

  11. #171
    No. Mobs just hit hard and might require you to CC or kite some trash pulls.

  12. #172
    Mechanics wise nah, you just may need a little gear but not bad

  13. #173
    Dunno hows HC feels now still lvling but what i can say about a lot of normal runs. TBC dungeons seems a bit harder than classic dungeons so far. Mobs hits really hard. Fear/MC hurts. They are not hard to be fair :P I do like it.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    I can't say for SL (stopped playing at Legion), but I can say safely that even normal high-level instances are already about as hard as M0 in Legion, so I'm having big doubt about heroics not being noticeably harder.
    They took about the same time as M0 at start of SL with HC gear. 20-30mins per dungeon and the difficulty feels the same, just my thoughts.

    For example in SH heroic the timer is very easy, 17min from timer start to last boss so thats 38 mins time left. SH is easy 30min instance with dungeon blues.

    Last edited by mmocfd1b0ab5a3; 2021-06-07 at 12:38 PM.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    They took about the same time as M0 at start of SL with HC gear. 20-30mins per dungeon and the difficulty feels the same, just my thoughts.

    For example in SH heroic the timer is very easy, 17min from timer start to last boss so thats 38 mins time left. SH is easy 30min instance with dungeon blues.

    Might depend a lot on the population playing them. Heroic right now are only played by people pretty hardcore (the overwhelming majority is not even 70, not to speak of being 70 + having the attunement), while M0 had a ton of people from all ability and involvement range.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Might depend a lot on the population playing them. Heroic right now are only played by people pretty hardcore (the overwhelming majority is not even 70, not to speak of being 70 + having the attunement), while M0 had a ton of people from all ability and involvement range.
    Not really, its the same argument the last 4 expansions.

    You have the majority taking weeks to enter M0 and/or complaining about things about it, while its getting cleaved down by the people with a clue the first day, this isnt any different.

    Its why i can never understand how people have problems,"anxiety" and actual disbanding groups in such irrelevant content.

    Yes, you might wipe here and there with a stupid pull, or some enraging mob, big deal, just cleave it down afterwards.

    I mean, i would know, been doing it every expansion the last 16 years, only difference is, when i am working and cant play all day, it just takes 3-4 days (not played) to get to max level, rather than rush everything the first day.
    Last edited by potis; 2021-06-07 at 02:22 PM.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Not really, its the same argument the last 4 expansions.

    You have the majority taking weeks to enter M0 and/or complaining about things about it, while its getting cleaved down by the people with a clue the first day, this isnt any different.
    You said it yourself : last 4 expansions.
    The difference is that it takes a lot less time to reach max level in today's WoW. The "hardcore" part last maybe one or two days, after that it's much more diverse. Vanilla took whole weeks before non-hardcore reached max level, and TBC is probably a good one week to reach this point. If you play M0 by the third day in retail, is massively different than playing heroic in the third day in Classic.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    You said it yourself : last 4 expansions.
    The difference is that it takes a lot less time to reach max level in today's WoW. The "hardcore" part last maybe one or two days, after that it's much more diverse. Vanilla took whole weeks before non-hardcore reached max level, and TBC is probably a good one week to reach this point. If you play M0 by the third day in retail, is massively different than playing heroic in the third day in Classic.
    Not really, considering i did exactly that back in 2007.

    Maybe not 3rd day but more like 6th. We kinda didnt notice they were out cause of the grind for flying lol ,i miss those days of how bad i was but at the same time so far ahead .

    I still remember telling my group of friends "Man they added HC we already missed a week, lets go!"

    As a note of how its not coming out of my ass or to show off, 10 orc rogues patrolling at SLabyrinth at the second boss was fun, 5 people cheap shotted at the same time still haunts me to this day.

    Unluckily they nerfed it second week, but we did wipe there more than once even after the first time we saw them lol

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    After doing all Heroics except Arcatraz and Ramparts I can say my memory was right: they are on par with M0 dungeons in Shadowlands launch.
    Unless things have changed greatly in the last couple years that is just not true. I ran M+ in Legion. First I don't recall wiping in a heroic since Cata. I also never wiped in M0 or even low digit M+'s runs during the entire year I was back to playing this game in 2018. Its possible that the only people who queue for M+ know what they are doing. Maybe.

    These defensive threads with their over the top statements are funny in their own way. I mean I came back to Classic a couple months ago and probably wiped more in BRD than all my Legion / beginning BfA heroic / M+ runs together. I've just reached Sethek Halls normal and can probably match that wipe count in TBC. The biggest problem is mages insisting on trying to aoe everything down including the caster mobs. You have to pay attention to the old rules about threat and 5 sec rule. In Sethek someone has to watch to dispel the fears or you pull another group. You definitely can run out of mana if you're in quest/dungeon blues and not in T3 gear. Another thing - its not tuned as tightly as the modern game. Healer gets sheeped a couple times in a row on Talon King? You get sheeped with little time before arcane explosion? That's how it goes.

    I never ran into those situations all the way to M+ 15. You see what movement the game wants you to do and you do the dance. That was it really. Much more repeatable too, I never felt surprised with something I haven't encountered in this game before.

    On the other hand that single person tower quest was the toughest thing I've done in a mmo in a while. It took 25 tries with my druid to get that done. Probably should've taken it more seriously the first dozen attempts, but it still would've taken a bit of time. Mostly, it felt more like pvp moves when you have to use all your abilities at once, and I haven't done much of that recently.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Marakesh View Post
    Unless things have changed greatly in the last couple years that is just not true. I ran M+ in Legion. First I don't recall wiping in a heroic since Cata. I also never wiped in M0 or even low digit M+'s runs during the entire year I was back to playing this game in 2018. Its possible that the only people who queue for M+ know what they are doing. Maybe.
    Well with bad people you can definitely even wipe on Deadmines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marakesh View Post
    These defensive threads with their over the top statements are funny in their own way. I mean I came back to Classic a couple months ago and probably wiped more in BRD than all my Legion / beginning BfA heroic / M+ runs together.Healer gets sheeped a couple times in a row on Talon King? You get sheeped with little time before arcane explosion? That's how it goes.
    See? You don't even do the simplest mechanics in the game and thats why you struggle. It's self explanatory you tank boss near pillars and line of sight that sheep as healer since it targets the person he is about to sheep.

    That all was just my experience, we did HCs with almost same group as we farmed M0 during launch of SL and we had zero trouble in dungeon blues/t2 gear.
    Last edited by mmocfd1b0ab5a3; 2021-06-11 at 06:32 PM.

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