TBC HC dungeons hard or nah?

[Katchii]

M+ in essence.

M+ has a little more nuance IMO, like different affixes changing your tactics and timers affecting how you do things, whereas in TBC Heroics it's going to be almost exactly the same every single time (aside from possibly using different classes to to the CC). But in context of the group having to actually think and coordinate what they're doing before the pulls, yes.

[erifwodahs]

M+ has a little more nuance IMO, like different affixes changing your tactics and timers affecting how you do things, whereas in TBC Heroics it's going to be almost exactly the same every single time (aside from possibly using different classes to to the CC). But in context of the group having to actually think and coordinate what they're doing before the pulls, yes.

Yeah, that's what I meant in essence. And only for a shortwhile until gear kicks in. After first few weeks it will be way more fleshed out, but first weeks will feel more like doing a fortified dungeon.

[Hofsa]

the difference between vanilla and tbc in terms of raw numbers is quite high. most pre nerfed heroic dungeon trash melted t4 tanks and one-hitted pretty much any non-tank. If this is enough to consider something as hard? I dont think so. Unfortunately no server offers this old experience. On a 2.4.3 build dungeons got nerfed like a dozen times already.

True, me and some guildies hit up HC dungeons (I think we had atleast some Kara pieces). The tank got killed if he had more than one trash mob on him, sometimes even dying when only one trash mob hitting him. (He could tank bosses just fine, they hit for a lower amount). Trash mob killing was basicly me speccing arcane for slow (for some reason) and kiting one trash mob at a time when the others were CC'd.

And that was my experience with HC The Blood Furnace pre any nerf in BC ^^ But in the end I got myself The Willbreaker

This was in a guild that ended up clearing all BC content when current. So by BC standard we weren't bad.

[Caperfin]

I will be shaman tanking, should be fun.

amen brother

[Funkyjunky]

Early TBC they where hard. But they where nerfed during the lifespan of tbc.

I just hope blizzard doesn't use strict 2.4.3 data - as they did with 1.12 and classic. Bosses litterally missing abilities.. Big yikes.

[Bigbazz]

Melee in TBC have very little AOE. If they pull aggro on anything that is not skull marked they are doing something wrong. And skull can be taunted/stunned.

This is completely wrong.

1. Warriors have Whirlwind as part of their default single target rotation and unlike in Shadowlands it hits really, really hard (on all 4 targets it hits), they also have exceptionally strong 2-4 target cleave in general.

2. Rogues major single target dps cooldown is Blade Flurry, which also cleaves.

Enhance Shaman don't AOE sure, but the two top melee dps specs have passive cleave that they will be very keen to use.

[ehma]

This is completely wrong.

1. Warriors have Whirlwind as part of their default single target rotation and unlike in Shadowlands it hits really, really hard (on all 4 targets it hits), they also have exceptionally strong 2-4 target cleave in general.

2. Rogues major single target dps cooldown is Blade Flurry, which also cleaves.

Enhance Shaman don't AOE sure, but the two top melee dps specs have passive cleave that they will be very keen to use.

I feel like you took his post out of context a bit. He even said in his next paragraph that he wasn’t referring to those standard 8 pull packs like in shadowlands, but in a normal heroic in tbc where you have most of the mobs ccd and you only have one or two coming for you. In tbc if you pull something big enough to where people are actually aoeing then yeah melee sort of suck donkey balls. I can’t ever see a rogue popping blade flurry on a normal trash pack in a heroic where you have half the mobs ccd. I mean maybe sometimes but like he said if you are popping it on a pack like that soon enough to pull aggro off your tank you are probably doing some thing wrong lol.

[Monteverdi]

Shattered Halls and Shadow Lab were brutal and required cc

CC = constantly consecrate, amirite?

[Zyky]

nah. It won't be super faceroll at some points (Shattered Halls on timer), but the average wow player is like 10 imes better than back then.

I like how people use this argument and claim "but Classic was a faceroll". Yes Classic was a faceroll, no it's not because players are more skilled or better. It's because they gave us Classic with mid-Naxx tuned spells and abilities and post nerf bosses for the entire expansion. Not to mention 15 years ago just about everyone was on dialup, which effected a lot of how the game was played.

[ehma]

I like how people use this argument and claim "but Classic was a faceroll". Yes Classic was a faceroll, no it's not because players are more skilled or better. It's because they gave us Classic with mid-Naxx tuned spells and abilities and post nerf bosses for the entire expansion. Not to mention 15 years ago just about everyone was on dialup, which effected a lot of how the game was played.

....... and we also know a metric fuck ton more about the game and the way we play it is vastly different. Even casual guilds go for world buffs, if you asked a casual guild back then to run around the world to pick up these buffs and logout until the second raid started and had a level 20 warlock summon people to the raid they would have laughed at you.

[Bigbazz]

I feel like you took his post out of context a bit. He even said in his next paragraph that he wasn’t referring to those standard 8 pull packs like in shadowlands, but in a normal heroic in tbc where you have most of the mobs ccd and you only have one or two coming for you. In tbc if you pull something big enough to where people are actually aoeing then yeah melee sort of suck donkey balls. I can’t ever see a rogue popping blade flurry on a normal trash pack in a heroic where you have half the mobs ccd. I mean maybe sometimes but like he said if you are popping it on a pack like that soon enough to pull aggro off your tank you are probably doing some thing wrong lol.

I dunno man, when I did dps in heroics on most pulls I would go full AOE as we'd CC out of range of whirlwind, if I pulled agro it was actually usually ok within reason. It depends on the mobs in particular, but a lot of our fast dungeon clears were what you would call organised chaos, since a Warrior tank cannot hold properly hold threat on more than 1 target (at least not within the time frame), but that's actually not a huge problem.

In particular Slave Pens and Durnholde (since they were the ones I farmed most for easy nethers), whether I was tanking or DPS there was some healthy use of cleave taking place, a bit of taunt tennis, use of stuns, fears where applicable. The thing is by the time you'd wait for a tank to get threat the dps could have already killed a target, often times I would focus most of my threat gen on 1-2 targets while the dps just blasted a 3rd target I wouldn't even bother with, by the time that was dead (and it was dead quickly) I'd have threat on 2 targets and the 4th would be CC'd.

There are exceptions of course, depends on the dungeon and what pull. Trash clearing is the main part of TBC dungeons, the bosses are typically easier.

[Tojara]

Yeah, people like to move goal posts. Even if they gave us a progressive patch cycle in classic, it still would've been steam rolled, and dungeons/raids would've been slaughtered. Part of that absolutely has to do with people just being better at the game. Back then this was a lot of peoples first MMO, that certainly isn't the case any longer. Obviously starting at a later patch cycle with better class balance helps, as does having better itemization. Dismissing that players are just better and this is their second go at the game is silly. Me playing Ocarina of Time when it first came out took awhile, me playing it 15 years later is quite a bit easier.

Regardless of what versions the dungeons end up being, they're still going to be 'easy'. I did all the early versions of the dungeons for all of the necessary attunements when the expansion launched and I remember a few things about them. Some mobs hit incredibly hard and lots of mobs have random amounts of annoying CC that they perform on your tank. We quickly realized however that every single mob (except for a few) were completely crippled by this one ability that nearly every group can access. Kiting.

The TLDR here is that you can always just kite, and it's a massively overlooked ability that people don't really use. I get that some people hate it, but equally is it really fun bringing an excessive amount of CC and fighting 1-2 mobs at a time? That sounds just as bad TBH.

TBC dungeons are more difficult than Classic dungeons though, that's for sure. If you pull extra mobs or try to pull two packs at once (let alone your tank tries to pick everything up), your entire group is going to explode. The dungeons are jam packed with trash and aren't really designed to be mass pulled, but they can also be easily kited if you have a good group for it, because every single dungeon in TBC is pretty much a long hall way. Specific mobs in TBC generally don't have dangerous casts that cause wipes like they would in retail if you fail to interrupt, mobs however just kind of hurr durr hit hard as the only driving force of the 'difficulty' in the dungeons.

Keep in mind while I point out how dangerous it is to mass pull, it can still be done if you just have a plan in regards to kiting. It's pretty obvious (usually by mob size) which mobs can't be kited and 90% of those are in Arcatraz lol.

[Zyky]

....... and we also know a metric fuck ton more about the game and the way we play it is vastly different. Even casual guilds go for world buffs, if you asked a casual guild back then to run around the world to pick up these buffs and logout until the second raid started and had a level 20 warlock summon people to the raid they would have laughed at you.

It doesn't matter, there are still guilds on Classic that don't force full world buffs, more than I think you know considering how you make it sound like "every" guild is doing that and that's just false. The reality is Classic has been in a state of post nerf all around, from raid bosses being in post nerf states, to classes having heavily buff spells and abilities that they just didn't have during the original Vanilla Molten Core, Blackwing Lair, or AQ. That's the only information worth taking into account, everything you're mentioning is nonsense because people were clearing those raids casually in Vanilla without raid buffs, the fact that people are running around with raid buffs now is only relevant to a conversation that players have only gotten worse at the game because they can't kill heavily nerfed content without requiring a full team to be world buffed.

[msdos]

There's gonna be like 20x the amount of prot pallies with an insane amount of knowledge this time around, knowing how and when to immune stuff, so I doubt they will be what they were. Not to mention all the changes into 2.4.

Even back when BC just came out you could get by by fear bombing them into the hall ways if the group was geared. You did enough dmg to delete them one by one while they were fear bombed.
Difficulty is blown up, imo, it's not like the bosses are hard. Tanks are better players now, players are better players, pallies will be abundant and people will know how to use snap CC and immunity better because of M+.

[Atherions]

I dunno man, when I did dps in heroics on most pulls I would go full AOE as we'd CC out of range of whirlwind, if I pulled agro it was actually usually ok within reason. It depends on the mobs in particular, but a lot of our fast dungeon clears were what you would call organised chaos, since a Warrior tank cannot hold properly hold threat on more than 1 target (at least not within the time frame), but that's actually not a huge problem.

In particular Slave Pens and Durnholde (since they were the ones I farmed most for easy nethers), whether I was tanking or DPS there was some healthy use of cleave taking place, a bit of taunt tennis, use of stuns, fears where applicable. The thing is by the time you'd wait for a tank to get threat the dps could have already killed a target, often times I would focus most of my threat gen on 1-2 targets while the dps just blasted a 3rd target I wouldn't even bother with, by the time that was dead (and it was dead quickly) I'd have threat on 2 targets and the 4th would be CC'd.

There are exceptions of course, depends on the dungeon and what pull. Trash clearing is the main part of TBC dungeons, the bosses are typically easier.

According to many people on these forums prenerf 2.0 heroics had mobs doing stupid damage. On private servers heroics were rather easy.

OFC how you play dungeons once you start farming them with raid gear will differ vastly from how you do them the first time around in greens/blues/T3.

[Selvari7]

I don't think the crowd that is going to be doing TBC dungeons is going to have much of a problem with them.

What crowd is this?

[ehma]

What crowd is this?

Maybe he thinks only hardcore raiders do heroics

[Argorwal]

It doesn't matter, there are still guilds on Classic that don't force full world buffs, more than I think you know considering how you make it sound like "every" guild is doing that and that's just false. The reality is Classic has been in a state of post nerf all around, from raid bosses being in post nerf states, to classes having heavily buff spells and abilities that they just didn't have during the original Vanilla Molten Core, Blackwing Lair, or AQ. That's the only information worth taking into account, everything you're mentioning is nonsense because people were clearing those raids casually in Vanilla without raid buffs, the fact that people are running around with raid buffs now is only relevant to a conversation that players have only gotten worse at the game because they can't kill heavily nerfed content without requiring a full team to be world buffed.

More so just the knowledge being more widespread about metas.

The massive fury rework that enabled warriors to become the dominant dps, and allow fury/prot tanking, came with 1.6 and BWL.

[Thelxi]

What crowd is this?

The crowd with interest in TBC endgame that grinds out the group quests and keys/rep to even step foot in them in the first place. Noobs won't be stumbling into those dungeons on a whim, and unless Blizzard concentrates everyone on a small number of servers there won't exactly be a vibrant pugging scene for them either.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe he thinks only hardcore raiders do heroics

That's a weird thing to say. What do dungeons have to do with "hardcore raiders"?

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

They were easy we just sucked at the game same goes for classic.

- - - Updated - - -

They're not "hard" they just take coordination and communication because you can't just waltz into a room and faceroll everything. Target priority, crowd control and careful use of abilities to prevent breaking CC are essential. But that's not "hard" that's just NOT faceroll.

Ccing in wow is brain dead. The mobs do nothing to stop you and if you struggle to not break cc that is an iq problem. Diminishing returns don't exist on live, I don't remember tbc heroics super well.