TBC HC dungeons hard or nah?

[cparle87]

After doing all Heroics except Arcatraz and Ramparts I can say my memory was right: they are on par with M0 dungeons in Shadowlands launch.

I don't play TBC Classic but I have done the TBC timewalking. And I can say the biggest difference between then and now is that mobs will actually affect CC attacks against your group. Group members will be sheeped, hexed, or silenced. Tanks will be gouged and lose aggro as the mobs attack the top dps. You'll be counterspelled and have your magic school locked out. One time my group wiped, I think it was in Mana Tombs, and the group was all mad at me, the healer. I asked them what they expected with them having pull four packs each with mobs with silences who kept me permanently silenced for over 30 seconds until we were dead. Another time I was kicked from a group after we wiped on the first boss in Mana Tombs. I warned them that all the trash in the room would pull with the boss and they called me a liar, that no such mechanic exists. And when I warned them about his damage reflect shield they ignored that too.

[tikcol]

I don't play TBC Classic but I have done the TBC timewalking. And I can say the biggest difference between then and now is that mobs will actually affect CC attacks against your group. Group members will be sheeped, hexed, or silenced. Tanks will be gouged and lose aggro as the mobs attack the top dps. You'll be counterspelled and have your magic school locked out. One time my group wiped, I think it was in Mana Tombs, and the group was all mad at me, the healer. I asked them what they expected with them having pull four packs each with mobs with silences who kept me permanently silenced for over 30 seconds until we were dead. Another time I was kicked from a group after we wiped on the first boss in Mana Tombs. I warned them that all the trash in the room would pull with the boss and they called me a liar, that no such mechanic exists. And when I warned them about his damage reflect shield they ignored that too.

Most mobs that silence have a 20 yards range on it to force casters into max range

[callipygoustp]

TBC HC dungeons were ridiculously easy. With a group that knew how to CC/interrupt you could blow through any TBC HC dungeon incredibly quickly.

Whether or not they are on par with m0? Hmmm, I think SL m0 dungeons are easier. Really don't need any coordination in mythic dungeons until you get into the +5 and higher versions.

[Millyraynge]

TBC HC dungeons were ridiculously easy. With a group that knew how to CC/interrupt you could blow through any TBC HC dungeon incredibly quickly.

Some group setups have easier times than others. This works today the same way like it did back in the days. But the numbers are indeed pretty much tuned like back in the days -> unprepared tanks/groups are getting melted in some hc's.

[Tsarez]

Hunter, Warlock, Mage, Prot Paladin and heal Shamy literally melt HC dungeons. I'm through all HCs now once at least and that's our guild internal group.

We want to start selling HC boosts as soon as a few more people get the needed reputation. Those who are currently already revered mostly have no need for that.

[cparle87]

Some group setups have easier times than others. This works today the same way like it did back in the days. But the numbers are indeed pretty much tuned like back in the days -> unprepared tanks/groups are getting melted in some hc's.

Remember the ogre boss's room in Shadow Labyrinth? Very difficult without a warlock who could CC 3 mobs at once. And then you'd pull and suddenly lose your healer to a stealthed rogue.

[Saltysquidoon]

People were shocked that with 15 years of experience far better resources, reliable technology and an overall higher level of skill 'hardcore vanilla' was a joke.
People are still somehow shocked that when you factor in the above even accounting for badly designed classes and poorly optimised gear heroic 5 mans weren't the super-elite hardcore experiences they remember.

Nostalgia's a hell of a drug.

[Prag]

They’re easier than I expected provided all your friends aren’t playing Boomkins, Ele Shaman, SPriests or Warriors.

Hunter/Mage/Lock group feels like the first key I did in SL. Slower pace but predictable and controllable.

Hunter/Boomkin/Ele felt like +10’s. Unforgiving, no oh-shit buttons to compensate.

Comp matters.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

After doing all Heroics except Arcatraz and Ramparts I can say my memory was right: they are on par with M0 dungeons in Shadowlands launch.

not even you have to remove 90% of all mechanics that m+0 have and scale them down by 30% or so and you get TBC HCs but dog Content is hard if youre a dog like that one dude said that its harder than a +17 lool but never touched retail

[Kralljin]

Once tank is def capped the damage is very predictable and you can just spamheal them.

That works very poorly for obvious reasons on a gauntlet event, especially when they also stun your tank.

Trash melee swings have timer and CD on their hard hitting abilities (SL HC big demon mortal strike, Thunderclap in Sethekk Halls HC).

Those are by comparison super easy mobs, take something such as the Adepts in Blood Furnace, which can do 3 hits in a single one with their Thrash ability.

It's either, you CC one or you'll likely have a dead tank.

[Feanoro]

people said in the past that wow vanilla raids were hard and it turned out they were piss easy

They remembered being tuned for those raids and not having fifteen years of analysis of exactly what to do.

[Grimreaper]

Heroics arent hard on the basis of complexity or difficulty of execution. They are however brutally unforgiving and highly dependant on group setup and planning. If you group with experienced people you have played games with for years, ofcourse it's going to be easy. But if you just throw a random PuG together you will more often than not have a hard time completing most instances.

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They remembered being tuned for those raids and not having fifteen years of analysis of exactly what to do.

We got classic though, not vanilla. They are not the same games.

[kranur]

Heroics arent hard on the basis of complexity or difficulty of execution. They are however brutally unforgiving and highly dependant on group setup and planning. If you group with experienced people you have played games with for years, ofcourse it's going to be easy. But if you just throw a random PuG together you will more often than not have a hard time completing most instances.

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We got classic though, not vanilla. They are not the same games.

This pretty much. People too often judge on how others perform, especially the people who not only played this content before, they did so repeatedly and restarted a lot of times over the last 10 years, to the point whete they know every single stone's location and actions.

Yes, the mechanics are not hard, but screwing around, especially without an optimal group or overgearing, will make quick work of the group.

And back then, especially in vanilla, people had to learn what they had to do first hand, no guides, no experience, all of that while playing on toasters with crap internet. Of course it felt fucking hard.

[Marakesh]

Well with bad people you can definitely even wipe on Deadmines.

See? You don't even do the simplest mechanics in the game and thats why you struggle. It's self explanatory you tank boss near pillars and line of sight that sheep as healer since it targets the person he is about to sheep.

I don't recall ever being able to los a pve mob's abilities. (edit - obviously not including an intentional mechanic like arc explosion here since I imagine all sorts of internet arguing happening if I don't point out the obvious)

Meanwhile I blew through M+ to the 15 key in about a dozen tries. 2 unsuccessful runs, one because of a dc. Pugged the first couple bosses in several of the previous mythic raid tiers. There's nothing I saw to convince me you're leet and playing on a completely different level in retail. Sorry, not impressed.

That all was just my experience, we did HCs with almost same group as we farmed M0 during launch of SL and we had zero trouble in dungeon blues/t2 gear.

Well, you do outgear most of it. That still doesn't explain the complete mismatch between what I experienced in Legion, BfA, Classic, and what you are trying to sell here. Its not really open to interpretation, its not like you could somehow believe this. So, we come to the psychological reasons.

Retail WoW is a dying game, but there is a core group willing to throw a lot of time and money at it. No one in a real esport respects mmo raiding. It simply is gap in skill level that you suggest is there between classic and retail. The various fps and rts games that have millions of competitors striving to come out on top ensure that. If CS or LoL or maybe most of all still SC require like a 9 or 10 to come out on top then retail raids and M+ are like a 6 or 7 with Classic being like a 5. What really is the point of selling "leet skillz" when that isn't what the mmo genre does well anyways!?

[Feanoro]

We got classic though, not vanilla. They are not the same games.

I agree completely. The retail gloating about difficulty refuses to consider any nuances.

[Akka]

You guys have got to be kidding me.
HC might be like M0, but normal is NOT. I tanked every 5-man dungeon in TBC, back then, and they're not that hard.

People doing retail must have gotten soft...

They aren't "that hard", but then M0 instances aren't "that hard" either. They're both on the "you need to somewhat pay attention to what the mob/boss are doing". Bosses in M0 are a bit harder, but trash in normal BC instances are a bit harder (I actually wiped a few times due to accidental aggro or overconfident tank in BC normal instances, don't remember seeing it in M0).
HC are VASTLY more challenging than M0. Not even close. Probably equivalent to M5 to M15 depending on the instance.

[Doffen]

Equal to a m15?

My day is off to a good start.

[Xykotic]

Heroics are difficult because health and defense levels are still fairly meagre. So tanks get global'd unless you cc and handle mobs appropriately.

Mechanically its pretty much just normal. Its just a matter of bigger numbers.

[erifwodahs]

Some group setups have easier times than others. This works today the same way like it did back in the days. But the numbers are indeed pretty much tuned like back in the days -> unprepared tanks/groups are getting melted in some hc's.

Unprepared people get melted on any difficulty. When we started running our +10s in retail we were 170-180 gear tops, no renown, no conduits, pre-nerfed dungeons. Wasn't a free loot, but was not too hard.
Yesterday I tried pugging with people 200-210ilvl on +6 and healer left before the first boss. His mana kept running out - idk how he was healing, but he needed to drink after every pull so we just pulled without him several timer because I, as a tank, do good self-healing and there is little to no party damage as long as I decurse/interrupt. Obviously interrupts were rare and decurses only done by me as a tank, healer didn't bother.

Are TBC HCs hard? For that kind of healer/DPS - yes, absolutely - I have seen that while doing classic Strat/Scholo where you see mages not using counter spell even once to get mobs to come into a clump. Where you can see a difference between tanks who can use his toolkit to get interrupts out/LoS to clump mobs up and the other one who just takes dmg into the face for some reason.

Will it be hard for people who know how to run dungeons? No and it will get way easier over time. Our M0 runs before M+ went live in SL went from 5 -6hrs first week to less than 3-4hrs next week. Not because of the gear, but we just knew what bosses/trash did while first week we just read through the journal in 15sec and got fucked few times for that. No PTR testing, no previous research.

Altho measuring difficulty by top 5% playerbase won't get you anywhere because most of the content would be easy then, while vast majority wouldn't be able to do it. I would say content completed by 25% of the players who actually tried to participate in it could be called hard. So you don't get people calling Hunstman fight hard, because only 10% of the players killed it, while in reality, only 15% actually even tried to kill it. aka 66% success rate in reality.

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Equal to a m15?

My day is off to a good start.

Well, might be to Joey the Clicker for all we know. Some people have no trouble in +15 two chest with one player AFK while other people, with relatively the same gear are depleting it on regular basis. So depending on who you ask, +15 is either a joke or a challenge.

[Nite92]

After doing all Heroics except Arcatraz and Ramparts I can say my memory was right: they are on par with M0 dungeons in Shadowlands launch.

I am confident that your statement is a lie. Mobs get a sweeping strike buff, if there are two in a pack, the melee can die instantly, by just missing a buff. In BF, small little ground effects can twoshot any DPS, and likely kill a tank if we wasnt topped. In BF you have to carefully deal with the adds before the 2nd boss, else the tank dies withing 0.5sec. In many dungeons, didnt remember if a mob fears -> wipe. Didn't remember x pat, and you cc along their path -> wipe.

I am not saying that heroic dungeons are hard, I am doing easily 5 hcs each day, and did each heroic at least 2/3 times. Their mechanics are very easy, but have a small margin for error. M0 on the other hand are braindead.

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I actually started playing in TBC and I tanked with my droot, managed to down tier 5 raids and that was it. I remember hc dungeons as challenging, but doable during my kara/hc dungeon gear set up. CC was far important but maybe I was a noob back then

My question is, people said in the past that wow vanilla raids were hard and it turned out they were piss easy, will this be the same with tbc hc dungeons?

I am asking because perhaps there will be new metas etc

It just depends. You can facetank the entire of SHH with a geared prot pala or struggle a lot with a prot warr. The dungeons are not throughput checks, they are just mechanic checks. And failing a mechanic, is very easily a wipe.

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Shattered Halls and Shadow Lab were brutal and required cc

They don't, they are pretty easy. The margins of error are small, that is all.