The Machismo discussion from the Biden/Haris thread so he can stop derailing it.

[Zan15]

So, what metric do you want to base it on? If so, let's see the numbers.

Hold on a sec macho man. I already showed you why using just inflation is wrong.

Now you show me first why 15 dollars is not the right number. They have already listed a half dozen links to why 15 is the right number.

Tell me why 11 dollars is a better number.

[Machismo]

Manchin is playing politics. He wants something for his vote. Personally I just as soon find 2 votes from the GOP. It's part of the libertarian mantra. The likes of Rand Paul and Trump supporters do agree with you.

I guess Manchin and 7 other Democrats are suddenly libertarians?

[Zan15]

And that's the problem, the number then becomes arbitrary.

Sure, it feels nice to say that people deserve more... but in practice, states like WV will suffer for it.

Show me the data that shows WV will suffer??

its nice to say it because their wage index is so low and their min is so low, but where is the information backing up this statement?

[Shadowferal]

$11/hr...?
Yeah...I'm sure rhe GOP's methodology and their tendency towards delusion align better to such am "arbitrary" number.

[Machismo]

Hold on a sec macho man. I already showed you why using just inflation is wrong.

Now you show me first why 15 dollars is not the right number. They have already listed a half dozen links to why 15 is the right number.

Tell me why 11 dollars is a better number.

It's not my number, so I'm under no obligation to show you why.

I've shown that it makes no sense based on inflation, tat has been provided.

No, not one has shown why it should be exactly $15 an hour, that's the point. It's not based on any actual data. People are trying to argue it should be more, based on GDP, but that doesn't make much sense. First of, the change in GDP by state and locality is huge, and they are not calling for that number to be the minimum wage... making their entire argument meaningless.

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Show me the data that shows WV will suffer??

its nice to say it because their wage index is so low and their min is so low, but where is the information backing up this statement?

That was already provided.

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$11/hr...?
Yeah...I'm sure rhe GOP's methodology and their tendency towards delusion align better to such am "arbitrary" number.

It's just as arbitrary as $15 and $100 an hour.

Actually, it may be largely based on the minimum wage over time based on inflation... so may actually have a foundational basis.

[Santti]

I must say, it feels kinda nice to return to pre-Trump political debates. Well, this here barely counts as a debate right now, but you know what I mean. After soooo much Trump bullshit, this feels very welcome. Like a smart man once said, It's like putting on a favorite old sweater and smacking yourself in the balls with your childhood teddy. Okay, he might not have been that smart...

[beanman12345]

So, what metric do you want to base it on? If so, let's see the numbers.

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I'm not sure it does...

Exactly, which makes it all the more hilarious.

[Machismo]

@Machismo let’s do a hypothetical, you agree that there’s going to be a minimum wage until we can get a system in place like strongly unionized countries you used as an example earlier. How localized should the calculations be(in terms of area/regions) and what should they be based upon?

I agree that one will exist.

I would much prefer it to be very localized, down to the county/city level.

Personally, I'd prefer there not be one at all.

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Exactly, which makes it all the more hilarious.

So, let me know when you can find why it should be exactly $15 an hour.

[Shadowferal]

It's not my number, so I'm under no obligation to show you why.

And this is why you succeeded only in revealing how dishonest you are in your own argument. You make demands of others...to deflect away from the fact that you can't provide ANYTHING to prove or even support your argument...even just a little.

Like every libertarian...a waste of time.

[Zan15]

It's not my number, so I'm under no obligation to show you why.

I've shown that it makes no sense based on inflation, tat has been provided.

.

I've already shown you why you can't use inflation, it would require min wage to be $4.90 right now.
You've agreed that # is unstainable and unlivable right?

So can we stop parroting "based on inflation" already?

It's not my number, so I'm under no obligation to show you why.

.

Sure it is. You are the one bringing it up and i am asking for the details.
No on here has said
"15 is not my number, so tough shit its the number we are using"

No, not one has shown why it should be exactly $15 an hour, that's the point. It's not based on any actual data. People are trying to argue it should be more, based on GDP, but that doesn't make much sense. First of, the change in GDP by state and locality is huge, and they are not calling for that number to be the minimum wage... making their entire argument meaningless.

.

They have based on a bunch of additional points that also included inflation, production, local cost of living, etc etc.
You just don't agree with it.

No, not one has shown why it should be exactly $15 an hour, that's the point. It's not based on any actual data. People are trying to argue it should be more, based on GDP, but that doesn't make much sense. First of, the change in GDP by state and locality is huge, and they are not calling for that number to be the minimum wage... making their entire argument meaningless.

.

using GDP is downright retarded based on the way they value just inventory and when something effects the GDP in the product/service cycle. Not to mention WHERE the gdp is credited vs its actual impact point.

[Machismo]

And this is why you succeeded only in revealing how dishonest you are in your own argument. You make demands of others...to deflect away from the fact that you can't provide ANYTHING to prove or even support your argument...even just a little.

Like every libertarian...a waste of time.

Calling out your bullshit number is what I did.

I see no reason why it's exactly $15 an hour, that's the point.

[Zan15]

I agree that one will exist.

I would much prefer it to be very localized, down to the county/city level.

Personally, I'd prefer there not be one at all.

.

Oh god the administration of something at the micro level would be an governmental nightmare.

I thought you were for smaller less micromanaged govt?

The federal govt sets the floor its up to the states to do their fuckery with it at the local level if they choose.

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Calling out your bullshit number is what I did.

I see no reason why it's exactly $15 an hour, that's the point.

So then what number should it be?

Pick a city and give us a number.
Pick a state and give us a number.


Since you know 15 is bullshit you must have some idea on what it should actually be?

[Elegiac]

I see no reason why it's exactly $15 an hour

Gee, I wonder why someone wouldn't be capable of seeing the justifications for something because they're too busy repeating strawman attacks and ignoring evidence. /s

[PhaelixWW]

So, why is it not $16.54 an hour?

Probably because $15 is more of a "round number", to be honest.

[Machismo]

I've already shown you why you can't use inflation, it would require min wage to be $4.90 right now.
You've agreed that # is unstainable and unlivable right?

So can we stop parroting "based on inflation" already?





Sure it is. You are the one bringing it up and i am asking for the details.
No on here has said
"15 is not my number, so tough shit its the number we are using"





They have based on a bunch of additional points that also included inflation, production, local cost of living, etc etc.
You just don't agree with it.




using GDP is downright retarded based on the way they value just inventory and when something effects the GDP in the product/service cycle. Not to mention WHERE the gdp is credited vs its actual impact point.

So, what exact metric are we going to use to get it to exactly $15 an hour?

I'm still waiting on that.

If it's cost of living, great... let's see the exact numbers on that.

If you are going to force things onto people, you sure as shit better be able to explain exactly why. As of now, nobody can point to why it's exactly $15 an hour.

I agree, I have no desire to use it based on GDP... that was what other people wanted to do.

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What should it be based on since we agree it’ll exist? And how often would you recalculate since it’s so localized and localities can change drastically in short periods?

I'm fine with basing it on inflation... if there had to be one.

Which I don't want.

Now, your turn... why should it be exactly $15 an hour?

[Elegiac]

I'm fine with basing it on inflation... if there had to be one.

Why are you fine with basing it on inflation?

[Machismo]

Oh god the administration of something at the micro level would be an governmental nightmare.

I thought you were for smaller less micromanaged govt?

The federal govt sets the floor its up to the states to do their fuckery with it at the local level if they choose.

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So then what number should it be?

Pick a city and give us a number.
Pick a state and give us a number.


Since you know 15 is bullshit you must have some idea on what it should actually be?

Instead, people want to punish states like West Virginia, and wonder why guys like Manchin aren't on board.

It's not my number to give, because I don't fucking want one at all. Asking me to come up with your numbers for you... seems rather disingenuous.

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Gee, I wonder why someone wouldn't be capable of seeing the justifications for something because they're too busy repeating strawman attacks and ignoring evidence. /s

So, show me why it's exactly $15 an hour.

I'll wait.

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Probably because $15 is more of a "round number", to be honest.

So, it's entirely arbitrary...

Wow, looks like we finally made it.

[Machismo]

Why are you fine with basing it on inflation?

I'm willing to take inflation into account, as opposed to cold hard feelers.

As I stated, I don't want one at all.

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Already told you multiple times. Even linked what it should be in 2025 for individuals living in rural areas.

So, nothing actually close to $15 an hour, making the number entirely arbitrary...

What you linked to me was a history of the CPI.

[beanman12345]

And this is why you succeeded only in revealing how dishonest you are in your own argument. You make demands of others...to deflect away from the fact that you can't provide ANYTHING to prove or even support your argument...even just a little.

Like every libertarian...a waste of time.

only thing consistent thing about them, a waste of time every time. I maybe make a few shitposts due to boredom and my own amusement at their direction, or talk around them to people reading along which they may or may not just dismiss outright, which is whatever, but never engage with them seriously, ever.
[Infraction]

[Machismo]

Why are you lying? It was OVER $15/hr for an individual in rural MO.

This is what you linked to me.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2014/ar...experience.htm