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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Once again, why should I be paid more for flipping the same burger that I've been flipping for 40 years, just because a guy in Wyoming manages to drastically increase productivity in his natural gas job?

    That's the problem with a blanket increase based on productivity.
    for the same reason why burgers do not cost 29 cents anymore.
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    I’ve shown you $15 is too low for even rural areas based on cost of living. Why do you want people to make slave wages and have to have multiple jobs?
    I had to go back, because you originally posted no data, then added some later.

    From what you provided, it didn't give any actual hard numbers for a single person. It was a history on the CPI.

    https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2014/ar...experience.htm

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Like I said, guys like Manchin have no reason to support such an arbitrary number. The burden is on the people trying to get him to vote for it.
    Manchin and a few others are convinced, which is why it's currently dead.
    Manchin is playing politics. He wants something for his vote. Personally I just as soon find 2 votes from the GOP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    This isn't about libertarianism.
    It's part of the libertarian mantra. The likes of Rand Paul and Trump supporters do agree with you.

  4. #64
    I am Murloc! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    People aren't telling me why, they are running away from it. $15 is arbitrary, so let's use another arbitrary number.
    But $15 is not arbitrary. You keep claiming that it is, but you're mistaken.

    According to MIT, for example, a living wage in 2020 was $16.54/hr.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    for the same reason why burgers do not cost 29 cents anymore.
    Nope, and based on inflation, the minimum wage was never close to $15 an hour. If we're talking about the increased cost of a burger, then the minimum wage was highest in the late 1960's, but never close to $15 an hour.

  6. #66
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I think the problem with a blanket minimum wage, is that such a cost of living isn't the same everywhere... not even close.

    There are countries who do have no minimum wage, and they do just fine. The thing to stop them is the employees refusing to work fo those wages, and consumers refusing to spend money at any business that pays their employees such low wages.

    Unions are a good thing, and should be used... both as employees, and as consumers.
    The only reason these countries do just fine is their unions are so strong they may as well have a set minimum wage. The US unions have all but been busted apart by conservatives. It might be another story if the US had strong unions, but you simply can't remove the minimum wage in the US and suddenly expect unions to pick up the slack. It just wouldn't happen. It's a good idea, but it wouldn't happen.
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    I don't care if he committed tax fraud. Scoring political victories and crushing the aspirations of your political opponents is more important than adhering to moral principles.
    Knadra finally just admitting Trumpkins care more about political victories than morals.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I had to go back, because you originally posted no data, then added some later.

    From what you provided, it didn't give any actual hard numbers for a single person. It was a history on the CPI.

    https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2014/ar...experience.htm
    ... Go back to what I linked before that, and later quoted from, showing cost of living from rural to urban areas. It’s

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    Ok riddle me this, maybe i have this wrong???

    $3.35 was the min wage in 1982

    The Base they use for inflation is CPI for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U)

    1982 = 100 set as the baseline by the BLS

    the CPI-U us now 263.161

    So if 3.35 is the base of 100, 263.16 is 2.632 times greater

    so 3.35 x 2.632 = $8.82


    If we go back to 1947 when the CPI-u started it would be $4.90 an hour min wage based on using the 1947 data as baseline vs today


    LOL, you want to use this ridiculous CPI-u as a way to track inflation relative to wages???

    So you would support a reduction of min wage to $4.90??


    The measurement of inflation has always been under done by multiples almost every year. Its a rediclous process using that as the only baseline for determining where min wage should be set

    unless you are stupid and think people can live off $10,192 a year unless they were living under a bridge.
    So, what metric do you want to base it on? If so, let's see the numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    Never it was, and kinda proves my point.
    I'm not sure it does...

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    My issue is with people pulling numbers out of magic hats (like $15 an hour), and trying to shove them down people's throats.

    You'll notice that I previously stated Biden would be far better off working with the GOP, who are recommending an $11 minimum wage.
    So why $11?
    Where is the data to support $11?
    Why is it different from the data to support $15

    The 11 is just as "arbitrary" by your standards as much as $15 is.
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    The cost of living has increased since 1968, when the minimum wage value was just under $12/hr. And I'm not talking about the overall cost of living. Adjusted for inflation, cost of living has gone up dramatically. Neither I nor anyone else can give you a giant mathematical breakdown of why $15/hr is necessary. Wages in general are generally arbitrary numbers. Why should you make the money you currently make? Could you give me a detailed breakdown of why you deserve whatever your salary is, the exact value you contribute to your company, how much money you make them, both directly and indirectly? Could you give me a graph of people working in your same field with the same qualifications and experience?

    Yeah, you're not going to be able to pull that out of your ass without a ton of work that's completely unnecessary solely for the purpose of winning an internet argument.

    Effectively all you're doing is sea lioning here. You're demanding people provide you with concrete proof of something that is an abstract concept.

    The reason most people come by $15/hr is that in many regions, people who make $15/hr or around there abouts tend to make ends meet and have a little left over in the end for investment or free spending. So my reason "why" it should be $15/hr is that people need to make a basic living plus have a little bit on the side to either improve their fortunes or spend away as they see fit. The essential expenses are something people are always going to spend on, food, housing, etc, but overall people would be able to afford more nutritious food for themselves which would create more demand for food production. The extra money on the side would also create additional demand so that other companies that deal in non necessary living expenses would experience increased demand and business. It would stimulate the economy and create more fluidity of capital, which is a desired effect. Failing economies happen when money stagnates, when capital fluidity stops.
    And that's the problem, the number then becomes arbitrary.

    Sure, it feels nice to say that people deserve more... but in practice, states like WV will suffer for it.

    As for my income, it's largely based on what my employer and my clients (for my job, as well as my business) are willing to pay, compared to what I'm willing to work for. In essence, it's simple supply and demand.

    Would I be willing to work for less? yes.

    Would they be willing to pay me more? yes.

    $15 an hour was really just a talking point that turned into a rallying cry. That's the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    But $15 is not arbitrary. You keep claiming that it is, but you're mistaken.

    According to MIT, for example, a living wage in 2020 was $16.54/hr.
    So, why is it not $16.54 an hour?

    Is that based on one region, an average of all?

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, what metric do you want to base it on? If so, let's see the numbers.
    Hold on a sec macho man. I already showed you why using just inflation is wrong.

    Now you show me first why 15 dollars is not the right number. They have already listed a half dozen links to why 15 is the right number.

    Tell me why 11 dollars is a better number.
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Manchin is playing politics. He wants something for his vote. Personally I just as soon find 2 votes from the GOP. It's part of the libertarian mantra. The likes of Rand Paul and Trump supporters do agree with you.
    I guess Manchin and 7 other Democrats are suddenly libertarians?

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    And that's the problem, the number then becomes arbitrary.

    Sure, it feels nice to say that people deserve more... but in practice, states like WV will suffer for it.

    As for my income, it's largely based on what my employer and my clients (for my job, as well as my business) are willing to pay, compared to what I'm willing to work for. In essence, it's simple supply and demand.

    Would I be willing to work for less? yes.

    Would they be willing to pay me more? yes.

    $15 an hour was really just a talking point that turned into a rallying cry. That's the problem.

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    So, why is it not $16.54 an hour?

    Is that based on one region, an average of all?
    How localized would you make the regions?

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    And that's the problem, the number then becomes arbitrary.

    Sure, it feels nice to say that people deserve more... but in practice, states like WV will suffer for it.
    Show me the data that shows WV will suffer??

    its nice to say it because their wage index is so low and their min is so low, but where is the information backing up this statement?
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  15. #75
    $11/hr...?
    Yeah...I'm sure rhe GOP's methodology and their tendency towards delusion align better to such am "arbitrary" number.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    Hold on a sec macho man. I already showed you why using just inflation is wrong.

    Now you show me first why 15 dollars is not the right number. They have already listed a half dozen links to why 15 is the right number.

    Tell me why 11 dollars is a better number.
    It's not my number, so I'm under no obligation to show you why.

    I've shown that it makes no sense based on inflation, tat has been provided.

    No, not one has shown why it should be exactly $15 an hour, that's the point. It's not based on any actual data. People are trying to argue it should be more, based on GDP, but that doesn't make much sense. First of, the change in GDP by state and locality is huge, and they are not calling for that number to be the minimum wage... making their entire argument meaningless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    Show me the data that shows WV will suffer??

    its nice to say it because their wage index is so low and their min is so low, but where is the information backing up this statement?
    That was already provided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    $11/hr...?
    Yeah...I'm sure rhe GOP's methodology and their tendency towards delusion align better to such am "arbitrary" number.
    It's just as arbitrary as $15 and $100 an hour.

    Actually, it may be largely based on the minimum wage over time based on inflation... so may actually have a foundational basis.

  17. #77
    @Machismo let’s do a hypothetical, you agree that there’s going to be a minimum wage until we can get a system in place like strongly unionized countries you used as an example earlier. How localized should the calculations be(in terms of area/regions) and what should they be based upon?

  18. #78
    I must say, it feels kinda nice to return to pre-Trump political debates. Well, this here barely counts as a debate right now, but you know what I mean. After soooo much Trump bullshit, this feels very welcome. Like a smart man once said, It's like putting on a favorite old sweater and smacking yourself in the balls with your childhood teddy. Okay, he might not have been that smart...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, what metric do you want to base it on? If so, let's see the numbers.

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    I'm not sure it does...
    Exactly, which makes it all the more hilarious.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    @Machismo let’s do a hypothetical, you agree that there’s going to be a minimum wage until we can get a system in place like strongly unionized countries you used as an example earlier. How localized should the calculations be(in terms of area/regions) and what should they be based upon?
    I agree that one will exist.

    I would much prefer it to be very localized, down to the county/city level.

    Personally, I'd prefer there not be one at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    Exactly, which makes it all the more hilarious.
    So, let me know when you can find why it should be exactly $15 an hour.

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