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  1. #1

    The Machismo discussion from the Biden/Haris thread so he can stop derailing it.

    This is a continuation of
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53086720

    I am doing this so that massive derailment may continue here.

    @Machismo
    @Breccia
    @Elegiac
    @cubby
    @Endus @PhaelixWW

    Lets continue that discussion here rather than liter the page with crap.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Here's the problem, $15 an hour is fucking arbitrary... it was simply a political slogan. It was a number grabbed from the ether, and people ran with it.

    Thanks for admitting I never said it would double the cost. I'm glad we got that bullshit narrative out of the way.

    I do have a better option, localize it. Choose unions over forced increases. Use consumer advocacy to push it without the need of government.

    I'm not the one who wants to screw over others, that's you guys.
    The number wasn't arbitrary. It was what minimum wage would have been at the time if it had kept pace with inflation and productivity increases since around 1968 or the golden age of capitalism.

    Ok, choose unions, great, how do you intend to keep those unions protected because without legal protections, they have no teeth. Unless you are pushing for violence to get around the companies screwing around to subvert them or shut them down.
    [Infraction]
    Last edited by Rozz; 2021-03-22 at 01:13 PM. Reason: Major Trolling
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
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  2. #2
    No good can come from arguing over the dubious logic of libertarian ideology.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    This is a continuation of
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53086720

    I am doing this so that massive derailment may continue here.

    @Machismo
    @Breccia
    @Elegiac
    @cubby
    @Endus

    Lets continue that discussion here rather than liter the page with crap.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The number wasn't arbitrary. It was what minimum wage would have been at the time if it had kept pace with inflation and productivity increases since around 1968 or the golden age of capitalism.

    Ok, choose unions, great, how do you intend to keep those unions protected because without legal protections, they have no teeth. Unless you are pushing for violence to get around the companies screwing around to subvert them or shut them down.
    Bullshit, it was never close to $15 an hour.

    https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019...ear/index.html

    Here's a thought, outlaw assault.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Bullshit, it was never close to $15 an hour.

    https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019...ear/index.html

    Here's a thought, outlaw assault.
    Nice deflection there, that is adjusted solely for inflation, I said inflation and productivity.

    And by that graph it would still be $11.55 adjusting solely for inflation compared to 1968 which is a MASSIVE jump from where we are now. And that was based on 2019 not 2021.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Nice deflection there, that is adjusted solely for inflation, I said inflation and productivity.
    Neither of which are really the main issue. Cost of living should be driver behind what was intended to be a living wage.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Nice deflection there, that is adjusted solely for inflation, I said inflation and productivity.
    So, productivity by the individual?

    That would be up to the employer.

    Does that mean that the minimum wage is going to be based on the per capita GDP of each state?
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, productivity by the individual?

    That would be up to the employer.

    Does that mean that the minimum wage is going to be based on the per capita GDP of each state?
    The national minimum wage is the NATIONAL minimum wage, if other places should be higher, the states should go higher. As far as it being too high, not really when you take into account inflation and productivity increases.

    And you want talk about getting rid of the gains of productivity increases, that ends up with all the benefits going to the top with all the labor cut to make it just SOL.

    - - - Updated - - -
    @Shadowferal

    Moving all things Machismo here please
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    The national minimum wage is the NATIONAL minimum wage, if other places should be higher, the states should go higher. As far as it being too high, not really when you take into account inflation and productivity increases.

    And you want talk about getting rid of the gains of productivity increases, that ends up with all the benefits going to the top with all the labor cut to make it just SOL.
    So, why should it be exactly $15 an hour, let's see the math.

    Personally, I see no reason why I should get paid more, because a natural gas employee in Wyoming is producing more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, why should it be exactly $15 an hour, let's see the math.

    Personally, I see no reason why I should get paid more, because a natural gas employee in Wyoming is producing more.
    Actually, we should have it HIGHER by now, we needed it closer to $15 about a decade ago.
    https://cepr.net/this-is-what-minimu...-productivity/

    If you are so unproductive that you aren't as productive as people were 50 years ago, you would be more beneficial to the nation if you were on welfare and opened up that job to someone who wasn't so lazy.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, why should it be exactly $15 an hour, let's see the math.

    Personally, I see no reason why I should get paid more, because a natural gas employee in Wyoming is producing more.
    https://www.epi.org/publication/why-...-minimum-wage/

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Actually, we should have it HIGHER by now, we needed it closer to $15 about a decade ago.
    https://cepr.net/this-is-what-minimu...-productivity/

    If you are so unproductive that you aren't as productive as people were 50 years ago, you would be more beneficial to the nation if you were on welfare and opened up that job to someone who wasn't so lazy.
    Once again, why should I be paid more for flipping the same burger that I've been flipping for 40 years, just because a guy in Wyoming manages to drastically increase productivity in his natural gas job?

    That's the problem with a blanket increase based on productivity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm still more than willing to talk about Biden and the rest of the Democrats not acting in lockstep on this thing.

    I haven't derailed it once, because this has always been about them acting at the behest of their constituents, as well as their own political careers.
    We aren't talking Biden or Harris at this point, we are discussing libertarian ideology which is derailing it.

    AFK.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  13. #13
    That doesn't show why it should be exactly $15.

    Next.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Once again, why should I be paid more for flipping the same burger that I've been flipping for 40 years, just because a guy in Wyoming manages to drastically increase productivity in his natural gas job?

    That's the problem with a blanket increase based on productivity.
    Well considering that burger flipper got paid more than you do now for flipping than same burger......
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    We aren't talking Biden or Harris at this point, we are discussing libertarian ideology which is derailing it.

    AFK.
    No, you are discussing that, I have no problem linking this to Biden, and have made efforts to do so. Just because you want to derail, is not my fault, nor is it my problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    We aren't talking Biden or Harris at this point, we are discussing libertarian ideology which is derailing it.

    AFK.
    And the other threads where this has happened.

    "I'm not getting defensive, do you wanna fight?!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Well considering that burger flipper got paid more than you do now for flipping than same burger......
    Nope, wrong.

    The minimum wage has ever been CLOSE to $15 an hour, which is the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I haven't derailed it once, because this has always been about them acting at the behest of their constituents, as well as their own political careers.
    Have you convinced anyone that a $15min wage was the grsnd evil?
    Bear in mind if this were the 60s when working a min wage then could get a person out of poverty snd into a reasonably priced apt on a good neighborhood, or even the 70s when working a summer job could pay off the tuition of most colleges...maybe you'd have an argument.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Have you convinced anyone that a $15min wage was the grsnd evil?
    Bear in mind if this were the 60s when working a min wage then could get a person out of poverty snd into a reasonably priced apt on a good neighborhood, or even the 70s when working a summer job could pay off the tuition of most colleges...maybe you'd have an argument.
    I'm trying to get people on board for a $100 minimum wage... why do people hate American workers so damn much?

    I have provided the comparative rate based on inflation, and it was never close to $15 an hour.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That doesn't show why it should be exactly $15.

    Next.
    Not just on the coasts, but all across the country, workers need at least $15 an hour today.

    Today, in all areas across the United States, a single adult without children needs at least $31,200—what a full-time worker making $15 an hour earns annually—to achieve a modest but adequate standard of living.12 By 2025, workers in these areas and those with children will need even more, according to projections based on the Economic Policy Institute’s Family Budget Calculator.13
    For example, in rural Missouri, a single adult without children will need $39,800 (more than $19 per hour for a full-time worker) by 2025 to cover typical rent, food, transportation, and other basic living costs.
    In larger metro areas of the South and Southwest—where the majority of the Southern population live—a single adult without children will also need more than $15 an hour by 2025 to get by: $20.03 in Fort Worth, $21.12 in Phoenix, and $20.95 in Miami.
    In more expensive regions of the country, a single adult without children will need far more than $15 an hour by 2025 to cover the basics: $28.70 in New York City, $24.06 in Los Angeles, and $23.94 in Washington, D.C.
    You’re right. If anything it’s saying $15 is too low.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Nope, wrong.

    The minimum wage has ever been CLOSE to $15 an hour, which is the point.
    You’re right. Cost of living has outpaced inflation and we have failed to do shit about it. Not really a great argument from you though. “Why should we outlaw slavery? It’s always been legal before!”

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