Do greedy millionaires and billionaires...

[Felya]

Rich people or poor people never automatically create new value, it will always depends on the quality of their choices where each new era presents unique challenges and circumstances.

Could you give an example of a newly created value? NFT...

[JohnBrown1917]

You can always take stuff from people who have more than a homeless person and use it to help homeless and impoverished people. However that is not an argument that says people who have houses and wealth are causing impoverished people to be in the situation they are in.


.

You think those billions just appear out of thin air? Or that nobody gets exploited?

[Elegiac]

Modern capitalism is inherently and inseparably predatory by nature. The entire system is capitalist predators predating upon workers and consumers both, to the exclusive benefit of those predators.

I specify "modern capitalism" to distinguish it from, say, what Adam Smith was proposing, which was either naive as hell regarding human nature or alternatively, more democratic-socialist in ideology than capitalist in the modern sense. Given that, y'know, he argued for regulation of producers to ensure that benefits from the system primarily oriented towards consumers, and in any case where a conflict between consumer and producer interests emerged, it was the consumers who should be favored, not the producers. Modern capitalism is designed to serve the capitalists exclusively, Adam Smith's capitalism was meant to serve the consumers.*

*European consumers.

Smith-era capitalism is still fundamentally predicated on the notion that a capitalist country has a permanently exploitable underclass; i.e. women, colonies, etc.

[Shadowferal]

Wealth lets you do more things. If you're not inspired to have more wealth and do more things in life then that's perfectly fine as long as you're 100% content with life as is. To each their own.

Wealth has nothing to do with inspiration. Wtf..do you get these shitty ideas from. nothing fucking resonates with you at all...

Some rich and poor people do unscrupulous things, those individuals should be condemned.

And welcome to the wrong side that gets condemned.

[PC2]

You claimed that it was a myth that millionaires and billionaires cause suffering and poverty. That's demonstrably false.

If you believe billionaires/millionaires cause suffering and poverty then you have to demonstrate it. Otherwise your default belief in the claim should be non-belief. If you can present something that is actually true then nobody will be able to criticize it.

[Sorensen]

Wanting to have basic comforts and financial security is hardly "greed", dude.

Wanting to own a home far out of your price range on an ARM loan is greed.

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Again: that's not "greed". Or is wanting food when you can't afford to eat "greedy" too?



They aren't "ordinary people" tho. Stop moving the goalposts, lol.

Wanting a lavish steak dinner when you can't afford it and there's food at home is.

[Endus]

Climate change can cause major local problems but it's not a major global problem in the sense that it won't prevent us from being able to increase agricultural output, increase the population, grow the economy, etc. ​

Stage 3 climate change denial.

Also wrong on all three counts. See Chapters 7, 10, 11, and 13 of Working Group II's report in the AR5, in particular. I've linked these to you before, and you've ignored them, so this is more that everyone else has access to the information that debunks the denialist horse shit you're peddling.

https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg2/

Things like that can happen but it doesn't mean that the existence of rich people and their bank accounts is a root cause of poverty.

Given that there's a finite amount of wealth, any concentration at one end of the spectrum comes at the expense of other areas on that spectrum.

And before you return to your magical nonsense of infinite growth, note that growth within a finite system does not make that system infinite in nature, it simply changes the scale of the finite value.

[Elegiac]

If you believe billionaires/millionaires cause suffering and poverty then you have to demonstrate it.

It's less them 'causing' suffering and more their existence being a symptom of a shitty economy that makes people suffer.

In a good, efficient economy, billionaires would not exist.

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Wanting a lavish steak dinner when you can't afford it and there's food at home is.

Having a home isn't a luxury, sweaty. Piss poor analogy.

[downnola]

If you believe billionaires/millionaires cause suffering and poverty then you have to demonstrate it. Otherwise your default belief in the claim should be non-belief. If you can present something that is actually true then nobody will be able to criticize it.

I gave you an example in my first response. If you choose to ignore it that's on you, not me.

[Elegiac]

I gave you an example in my first response. If you choose to ignore it that's on you, not me.

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned the Belgian Congo as an example of the mega rich directly causing hardship and suffering in pursuit of profit and private wealth.

Or. You know. India.

[Forogil]

So, a desire that doesn't exist outside of a few cringe cases of profiteers that don't represent ordinary people?

If you genuinely believe that there are only few cases of people wanting to own a house without having the money you are just arguing against facts, as usual.

[PC2]

Wealth has nothing to do with inspiration.

It depends on the person. It's good to have all kinds of people in the world who are inspired by different things. Some people are ascetics who believe in spiritual pursuits and not material pursuits. That's totally fine as long as they're not trying to force everyone else to believe that their way of life is the only valid way of life.

[Elegiac]

If you genuinely believe that there are only few cases of people wanting to own a house without having the money

I don't think that was the principle goal of most people, no, since what you're describing is theft. The goal was owning a house, it is not their fault the regulations were relaxed nor is it reasonable to expect laypeople not to aim for home ownership when it is made easier. Has fuck all to do with 'greed'.

Again; not everyone is as malicious and greedy as the rich in America, hun.

[Endus]

Wanting to own a home far out of your price range on an ARM loan is greed.

Was looking at buying a townhome last year, working with agents and walking it around. Barely affordable with a C$40k downpayment, and a total purchase price of C$400k+ generally, and at that price point, you're looking at 2 bedrooms, 1 1/2 baths, maybe an office space but not always, pretty small overall. That's entry-level housing. And it's out of most people's price range, unless they're making six figures a year. Given that's what we're working with.

Wanting a lavish steak dinner when you can't afford it and there's food at home is.

Going out to a restaurant for steak? Maybe. Restaurants are overpricing things to pay for staff and make profit.

Buying steak to grill at home? As long as you're not buying prime rib or T-bone and getting something like a new york strip cut instead, it's not particularly expensive compared to other meat options. I can cook a steak that I'd put up against any chain restaurant's offering any day of the week; I won't claim to be able to keep up with a michelin-star chef or something.

Saying "but you're having steak for dinner" is pretty much the newer "but you've got a refrigerator" in "not understanding basic household economies".

[downnola]

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned the Belgian Congo as an example of the mega rich directly causing hardship and suffering in pursuit of profit and private wealth.

Or. You know. India.

Remember Pinochet and the Chicago boys? The list goes on and on.

[Elegiac]

Remember Pinochet and the Chicago boys?

I try not to.

[Felya]

It depends on the person. It's good to have all kinds of people in the world who are inspired by different things. Some people are ascetics who believe in spiritual pursuits and not material pursuits. That's totally fine as long as they're not trying to force everyone else to believe that their way of life is the only valid way of life.

Is there an in between the spiritual and the financial? Is there anything else between money and god?

Pursuing money, is not pursuing material things, since that how you go broke.

Edit: Pat Tillman wasn’t an example of fortunes he gave up nor his spirituality. There is something else you are missing...

[PC2]

I gave you an example in my first response. If you choose to ignore it that's on you, not me.

Okay, I'm not saying that rich people, poor people, and institutions can't get caught up in toxic behavior that leads to economic problems. That can happen in any kind of society. I'm saying that it doesn't have to happen in principle and that people can always learn from bad events and do better in the future without needing any kind of authoritarian measures that promise people "security" and "stability".

[Elegiac]

without needing any kind of authoritarian measures that promise people "security" and "stability".

The only people proposing those are ones bankrolled by the wealthy, so.

It's almost as if fascism is capitalism's immune response against reform.

[Felya]

Okay, I'm not saying that rich people, poor people, and institutions can't get caught up in toxic behavior that leads to economic problems. That can happen in any kind of society. I'm saying that it doesn't have to happen in principle and that people can always learn from bad events and do better in the future without needing any kind of authoritarian measures that promise people "security" and "stability".

You are calling taxes, authoritarian... just to make this clear... you are calling a tax increase, which fundamentally cannot have a drastic impact on the recipient of tax increase... authoritarian?