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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by intenz View Post
    I don't understand any of it. Afaik the ilevel cap is 220 right? So I have to farm M+ to upgrade gear that isn't as good as what any semi-casual already had? Why on earth isn't the cap 226? Makes no sense. Aside from a couple of trinkets there's no 220 M+ item I even want.
    If you have every single slot above 220 then this system isn't for you. This system is designed to help players who only do m+ but have been unlucky with the vault in certain slots. The player that does m+ and mythic raids will be better geared, as they should be. But for players that only m+, it's likely that they have multiple pieces "stuck" at 207-210. At this point in the season, there's enough valor to get 2-4 of those slots up to 220. Not perfect gear by any means, but a lot better. They don't want to replace mythic raid drops or great vault, but lessen the impact of bad luck.

  2. #82
    i really wish they made the valor cap 226 tho i guess they wanted to keep mythic raiding revelent

  3. #83
    It feels like with every iteration to the loot system we go further and further away from loot just being loot. What is so painful to these devs to let bosses drop the best loot? Why do I need to upgrade it, or wait for a weekly chest where I get the best loot from. What happened to: Kill epic monster, get epic loot? Mindbogglingly artificial loot enhancement systems for no good reason. Explain to me why we need weekly chests and upgrade systems? If loot is too sparse, then increase the GOD DAMN loot drop chance so people do not NEED these systems in the first place. The most obvious way to defeat loot issues, is to look at the drop chance and not build additional systems around it. Fine tune the root problem, not band-aid around it... I know many people believe BFA was worse loot wise, but we are at a point where the best loot is NOT EVEN A DROP ANYMORE. It comes from currencies and weekly loot boxes, WAKE UP!

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    i finally got around to levelling my monk and got it to 60 last night, i got my legendary most of the coven campaign done so i decided it was time to get some m+ done on him spent 15 minuets trying to find a tank for my +2 he wasn't the best (he was probably lagging) just spent another 20 mins lookign for a tank for my 3 be4 one appears.

    is the bounty of tanks and healers for low keys over now?
    Mains needee 1-2 missing pieces. They got them now. No need to grind anymore. Alts are boring.

  5. #85
    For me it was doa because everyone who meets the upgrade tier reqs will already have better gear.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Qnubi View Post
    It feels like with every iteration to the loot system we go further and further away from loot just being loot. What is so painful to these devs to let bosses drop the best loot? Why do I need to upgrade it, or wait for a weekly chest where I get the best loot from. What happened to: Kill epic monster, get epic loot? Mindbogglingly artificial loot enhancement systems for no good reason. Explain to me why we need weekly chests and upgrade systems? If loot is too sparse, then increase the GOD DAMN loot drop chance so people do not NEED these systems in the first place. The most obvious way to defeat loot issues, is to look at the drop chance and not build additional systems around it. Fine tune the root problem, not band-aid around it... I know many people believe BFA was worse loot wise, but we are at a point where the best loot is NOT EVEN A DROP ANYMORE. It comes from currencies and weekly loot boxes, WAKE UP!
    Best loot does drop from bosses. In mythic raid, with a lockout. But for m+ its infinitely repeatable. If it dropped 226 ilvl ppl wld be done the first week

  7. #87
    recently leveled 2 alts and valor is pretty nice - pretty much any item i can get to 220 with just a few upgrades while before gearing was really hard capped.

  8. #88
    Well... yes. Those who were hardcore enough to farm +2s reached the cap and / or upgraded whatever they wanted. I myself upgraded one item by only doing 4 mythic+ per week and emmisaries. Might've been 5, but anyway, it is just high keys for vault and not for valor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
    For me it was doa because everyone who meets the upgrade tier reqs will already have better gear.
    You must be super lucky. I still have 5 slots under 220. Back, neck, one ring, trinket, feet. Oh and shoulders, but i only use those when switching out legendary. Still, 220 ilvl overall because i actually got and upgraded one of the trinkets (The scale that is bis for tanks). And yes ive had keystone master for quite some time, shit just wont drop in the 4-5 keys i do per week. Nor is my vault very lucky with only two options and i cba to do 10 for one extra.
    Last edited by Loveliest; 2021-03-25 at 04:22 PM.

  9. #89
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    recently leveled 2 alts and valor is pretty nice - pretty much any item i can get to 220 with just a few upgrades while before gearing was really hard capped.
    Yeah, no. Or rather, sure, if you can take your recently leveled alts and 1) time +10s or 15s (all of them), 2) get the item you want to drop and 3) get enough valor to upgrade said items.

    You're not doing that on freshly leveled 60s unless you have a group of friends who carry you because no one is taking a new 60 into 15s or even 10s.

    That's the problem with this iteration. There are too many hoops to jump through:

    1) Need to re-farm the loot.
    2) Need to time all 5s, 10s or 15s depending on what you want to be able to do
    3) Need to then run M+ enough to get the VP for upgrades.

    The problem is that this doesnt address the people who could have benefited most - people stuck at 195-205 or so, who don't raid heroic and were doing some M+ but not farming the hell out of 15s. When this was first announced, I thought that maybe they'd found a way to get over the soft cap they'd created.

    You can so easily get to ~200 that it renders all of LFR, M0, Normal CN and all of the low level keys completely irrelevant from a loot perspective. If you're already at 200 your gear is already as good as or better than the drops in those places with a few exception, mostly trinkets.

    I thought this system would let people in that fix time some 5s, get some VP, upgrade gear, time out the 10s, etc. In other words, another avenue to gear up. Instead, there are so many barriers that I just don't bother. I can do all of that, but since I can't upgrade the existing M+ gear that I got prior to 9.0.5, it feels like a chore. And, well, eh. With 9.1 relatively soon, why bother grinding for gear now?

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    You're not doing that on freshly leveled 60s unless you have a group of friends who carry you because no one is taking a new 60 into 15s or even 10s.
    Of course you can, run your campaign, grab all the covenant stuff, upgrade it with anima, boom 195 ilvl, you can run +10 keys ez. Literally an afternoon of preparation.

  11. #91
    My main is already 218 or something. But there is also ZERO chance in hell of ever doing all +15s on time.
    Being required to have the gear before you can get the gear makes valor non existent.

    It would work for any alts I have, and I do keep my Mage as an Alt. But I don't run enough dungeons to get all +10 on time. So it remains FAR easier to just gear up in the raid. Valor is not part of any natural gearing process for me.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Yeah, no. Or rather, sure, if you can take your recently leveled alts and 1) time +10s or 15s (all of them), 2) get the item you want to drop and 3) get enough valor to upgrade said items.

    You're not doing that on freshly leveled 60s unless you have a group of friends who carry you because no one is taking a new 60 into 15s or even 10s.

    That's the problem with this iteration. There are too many hoops to jump through:

    1) Need to re-farm the loot.
    2) Need to time all 5s, 10s or 15s depending on what you want to be able to do
    3) Need to then run M+ enough to get the VP for upgrades.

    The problem is that this doesnt address the people who could have benefited most - people stuck at 195-205 or so, who don't raid heroic and were doing some M+ but not farming the hell out of 15s. When this was first announced, I thought that maybe they'd found a way to get over the soft cap they'd created.

    You can so easily get to ~200 that it renders all of LFR, M0, Normal CN and all of the low level keys completely irrelevant from a loot perspective. If you're already at 200 your gear is already as good as or better than the drops in those places with a few exception, mostly trinkets.

    I thought this system would let people in that fix time some 5s, get some VP, upgrade gear, time out the 10s, etc. In other words, another avenue to gear up. Instead, there are so many barriers that I just don't bother. I can do all of that, but since I can't upgrade the existing M+ gear that I got prior to 9.0.5, it feels like a chore. And, well, eh. With 9.1 relatively soon, why bother grinding for gear now?
    This, especially the last two paragraphs.

    I can totally believe that there were technical reasons behind the decision, but not letting upgrade pre patch gear was a big punch in the face for a big part of the casual playerbase .

  13. #93
    Immortal Nnyco's Avatar
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    Literally didnt set foot into any m2-5 for valor. You get so much per run just capped the 5000+ easily by doin 15+ runs.

    Its harder to get the item than valor anyhow.
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  14. #94
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fynzie View Post
    Of course you can, run your campaign, grab all the covenant stuff, upgrade it with anima, boom 195 ilvl, you can run +10 keys ez. Literally an afternoon of preparation.
    /headdesk. Yes. And I've even noted how easy it is. I have no idea wtf I was thinking. I can't even blame lack of coffee.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    /headdesk. Yes. And I've even noted how easy it is. I have no idea wtf I was thinking. I can't even blame lack of coffee.
    Actually I think that one afternoon is probably overrated. Something like a couple of hours seems more realistic :lol:

  16. #96
    It's a good idea for a system, but (in normal "first pass" style) just has so many downsides.

    1) The rate of farming to spending is insanely slow. Some pieces cost 250 to upgrade, which works well, but a majority are in the 400-500 range.
    2) The seasonal cap limits how you want to spend it.
    A) You never want to upgrade anything below 210 (or 207 if you're willing to stretch it).
    B) You never want to upgrade anything that is not part of your best gear (maybe you got 210 boots, but you're better off saving that valor for 210 boots from some other dungeon).
    3) Farming a piece is just tiring. With two pieces a run, it can take a very long time to farm that one trinket you're hunting for.

    Something I'd really like to see is improving the experience of upgrading an item that is not perfect. Valor cost should scale with ilvl (going to 213 - the cap for KSC should be cheap!). Valor also needs to be uncapped in some way. Maybe you can refund it by selling the item you upgraded, or maybe the seasonal cap could only apply to upgrades spent past the dungeon cap (i.e. upgrading anything to 210 would still cost valor, but valor spent in this way would not count towards your seasonal cap).

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I’m also slightly below 1000 rio in the 12-13 bracket and the situation is depressing.

    Timing a key seems near to impossible. People leave at 1-3/4 of the dungeons or if we get to the end it’s almost always overtime due to “things” (not enough dps, random deaths here and there, bosses that go wrong).

    Sometimes you find a good comps but it’s something like 1 on 10. There is really a big jump in difficulty from 10 to 12-13, maybe we need another tuning pass.
    There is no jump in difficulty. The problem is that many people play on they key lvl they're running.
    My alt has 7 days played 217 ilvl already and finished all 14 in time.

    If I join a 5 or 12 it takes the same time as a 14.so what's the point of running lower keys? Ppl who run 11 or 13 are usually not good enough for 14. That's why you get horrible results there.

    14 or 15 is often easier than running lower keys. I joined a +5 key yesterday and the tank died 3 times. I'm the healer.
    Last edited by GnomeEU; 2021-03-25 at 05:13 PM.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by GnomeEU View Post
    There is no jump in difficulty. The problem is that many people play on they key lvl they're running.
    My alt has 7 days played 217 ilvl already and finished all 14 in time.

    If I join a 5 or 12 it takes the same time as a 14.so what's the point of running lower keys? Ppl who run 11 or 13 are usually not good enough for 14. That's why you get horrible results there.

    14 or 15 is often easier than running lower keys. I joined a +5 key yesterday and the tank died 3 times. I'm the healer.
    Point is that even if I’m healer noone will accept me for a 14 with 989 rio and 211 ilvl unless they are desperate.

    But it’s the pug scene, not much I can do about it apart from trying running with guildies, last week I had a luxury to make a Mists 14 plus a PF 13 (my first 14 ever and my first timed 13 ever) with the guild and seeing how smooth they went I felt even more depressed about the pug scene.

    Really no idea on how that hella lot of dps made to reach the 11-13 bracket, the amount of them being able to do absolutely nothing apart from staying in the fire while performing their rotation (with horrible results also number wise) is just astonishing.

  19. #99
    Ngl, I actually have about 4 item slots at 213 ilvl and could potentially benefit from upgrading to some 220 items in those slots.

    But at this stage of the patch, I simply cannot be arsed to further upgrade my character beyond what I get from the vault by doing a single m+ every week.

    This week I got the option of a 226 cloak I already had at 226 (but wasn't using due to terrible stats for my class), so I chose the consolation price of 750 Stygia instead, even though I won't bother grinding for sockets either.
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    Yes i hate those sneaky account thieves that come to my house and steal my computer in order to steal some wow money! Those bastards! *shakes fist*

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    Get a friend that's willing to tank. All that's happening is saturation. Saturation means you wait longer for tanks and healers.

    Tanks and healers basically get accepted instantly at those levels. If they're getting instant invites it means DPS are going to be waiting. Since tanking M+ means you have to do all the work in a PuG, it's always going to be the least popular role.
    Not complaining, just pointing out an interesting thing:

    I’m a tank, and a bit slow to get going. I’ve timed 3 different 14s and no 15s yet. What’s interesting is that when I was going from 0-14, I could often punch above my weight - I could get invites to +14 groups if I had timed a 12, for example.

    But the gap between 14 and 15 is huge. I can’t get into a 15 on a dungeon where I timed +14 by 4 minutes. I have gotten into 3 +15s so far... in one the dps was far too low but the leader friend requested me after we completed it late because I’m a good tank at this point. The second was disbanded after several dps fails, and the third died when the healer dc’d on the first pull.

    This isn’t a big deal for me as a tank - I’ll eventually break through, get KSM then everyone will love me - but I think it shows an interesting dynamic where once people get a key to 15 they’re terrified of de-leveling it, so they’d rather wait an hour for a high io tank than run immediately with an 1100 io one. This doesn’t seem to exist in the 11-13 range where people are more willing to take a chance.

    I’m not complaining about the actions of those people, but it does strike me as a game design problem if people are afraid to actually play the game because of a penalty.

    What I will complain about is the horrendous attitude I see from high io players who end up in my range. Last week I was running a +14 HOA and the route I was using had a pride spawn after the second shard (which I used to burst down two packs) instead of on the first shard. The leader (who hadn’t indicated anything about the route beforehand) reacted as if I had somehow murdered his firstborn and ruined his key at the same time. It was a bizarre overreaction to what is at worst a minor suboptimality (I’m not even convinced it actually was!). This is not a unique experience either.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-03-25 at 07:09 PM.
    Every single wow player should always try to make their own groups. Then you'd just have thousands of groups in group finder, without a single applicant.

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