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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Of course it matters. If they believe it to be true then their actions are informed by those beliefs. We also know that the purge being the only solution was a lie.
    Except it wasn't a lie. It was the absolute truth. Arthas did not have the resources, manpower OR time to do quarantine, even with Uther's entire battalion of paladins.

    The purge was the trap, it was what Arthas was meant to do in order to ensure his corruption.
    It being a trap or not does not make the purge any less necessary or any less the correct action. The only other option at the time would be to let everyone turn.

    Oh, I don't know. How about the guy who can literally see the future and warned Arthas in no uncertain terms that his actions were playing directly into his enemy's hands and would accomplish the opposite of what he intended. The guy who Jaina confirmed to be a powerful sorcerer who very well might have valuable insight. Arthas shut that shit down without a second thought because he's a stubborn bastard and it didn't fit with the narrative he had constructed for himself.
    You mean the guy whose "warning" was so cryptic and vague it didn't amount to anything valuable? "Valuable insight", from the guy who did not have the insight to know how Arthas is?

    And yeah, Uther and Jaina as well. Even if in their shock they didn't immediately pose an alternative, that shock should have given Arthas pause.
    A pause that would have costed lived, because, again, there was no time to waste. A decision had to be done then and there.

    No, you really don't.
    Yes, you do. And if you really think you know me better than I know myself, you're delusional at best, trolling at worst.

    Massacring innocent people is an evil act no matter how you cut it.
    So everyone who has to go through the "train trolley" situation is evil, for you?

    You're just telling yourself lies to make you feel better.
    Says the guy who equates the crusades to what Arthas did. You're equating a situation in which lies were told to the public to mask intentionally evil acts, to a situation where there was immediate danger of zombie overrun.

    A good person would do what they could to help anyone who could be helped, even if it meant failure. THAT'S the hard choice.
    Which is what Arthas did. There was no helping the citizens of Stratholme other than giving them a quick, merciful death. Again: there was no time for anything else.

    The one where you put yourself at peril in order to save at least one.
    Except there was no way to save a single soul, and this has been explained multiple times.

    The neutral and pragmatic response, which most people would likely take, would be to accept what you cannot fix and retreat to formulate a plan and gather more forces.
    In other words: damn all the civilians to either turn into undead or be horrifically killed by said undead. Good plan. Much neutral, very pragmatism.

    The evil act is to believe yourself a savior while putting innocents to the sword.
    Except I don't think Arthas ever called himself savior, nor anyone here is calling him a hero, AFAIK?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    Because murdering every citizen because they MAY have had bread that morning is fucking stupid and evil.
    Okay. First: it wasn't "just this morning". Second, grains is the base of the overwhelming majority of food people of that time eat that is NOT fruit or vegetable. So the chances you were infected were incredibly high.

    The chance that even a majority of the people ate tainted wheat is very low.
    Quite the opposite. Read above.
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  2. #302
    Garrosh did nothing wrong

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except it wasn't a lie. It was the absolute truth. Arthas did not have the resources, manpower OR time to do quarantine, even with Uther's entire battalion of paladins.

    It being a trap or not does not make the purge any less necessary or any less the correct action. The only other option at the time would be to let everyone turn.
    Yeah, and that argument is still bullshit. Arthas had resources and manpower. To evacuate and quarantine the entire city? No. But he still had time, resources, and manpower. He must have known that it would take time to purge the city of all life. He could have used that time to pursue at least several options that didn't involve killing civilians.

    Arthas couldn't know how long it would take to purge the whole city and if he would even succeed, so how can you use the "no time" argument when his whole plan was also based on a hunch. He knew it would take time, but he didn't know whether he'd be overrun immediately or if he had the time to kill most of the civilians while they were still human. As such, he couldn't know for a fact that he didn't have time to quarantine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yes, you do. And if you really think you know me better than I know myself, you're delusional at best, trolling at worst.
    No, I'm sure you truly believe that taking it upon yourself to dole out mercy killings is the right choice and that you still care about the citizens you murder. I just think you're morally bankrupt and full of platitudes to make your morbid thoughts sound reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So everyone who has to go through the "train trolley" situation is evil, for you?
    The trolley problem is a joke of a morality test. First off, it's set up with parameters that allow only two options and a split second decision/action. Unlike the Arthas situation which have a whole variety of options and hours to carry them out. The trolley problem takes away pretty much all agency from the subject and it's aim is to make you weigh lives like a mathematical equation. The trolley problem has no right answer, because it doesn't allow for any real choice.

    Also, unlike the Arthas Problem, you know immediately that the trolley only has two outcomes. The train is on tracks and it cannot deviate so it will, beyond a shadow of a doubt, kill either one or five. Arthas had no idea how many people were infected (could have been 90%, could have been 10%), how long the infection took before it turned someone (three days, so even all the infected were unlikely to turn at once), how long it would take for the city to fall if he did nothing, how long it would take for the zombies to spread outside the city. It could have taken hours, it could have taken days. He also didn't consider that he could have rallied the townsfolk to fight by his side before they turned. Instead, he forced them to fight the undead on their own as well as his rampaging soldiers. Arthas might have had more information than Uther, but he still didn't have nearly enough to deem the purge a necessity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Which is what Arthas did. There was no helping the citizens of Stratholme other than giving them a quick, merciful death. Again: there was no time for anything else.

    Except there was no way to save a single soul, and this has been explained multiple times.
    Wrong. That was Arthas' excuse. He had absolutely no way of knowing how many he could have saved over the hours it took to hunt down and murder every man, woman, and child. The orphanage, at least, was safely evacuated, (so yes some souls were saved no thanks to Arthas) and there are quests that follow some of the NPCs who fought back, even against a two front battle against both their prince and the undead.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Okay. First: it wasn't "just this morning". Second, grains is the base of the overwhelming majority of food people of that time eat that is NOT fruit or vegetable. So the chances you were infected were incredibly high.
    That doesn't take into account the possibility that many people might have still been eating food that used the grain from before the tainted shipments arrived. We know the plague takes about 3 days from infection to death, so if people were turning when Arthas arrived the tainted grain had only been available for about 3 days. As far as I know, there are no sources to say that food was scarce so the bad grain had to be used immediately. In fact, Stratholme was a fairly prosperous port town so it's perfectly reasonable to believe that a lot of its people didn't NEED to consume the tainted grain immediately, instead continuing to rely on food that had been prepared prior to the distribution of the tainted grain. That means many could have had days before they turned, and a portion were still uninfected.

    All this breaking down of posts is getting super tedious, so I'm done. All you're doing is using the same, false arguments to try to paint the purge as the only choice. That's a point that Arthas has to hammer home to excuse his actions, but we as the audience should know better. He had the time, resources, and manpower to kill over 10,000 civilians spread out across a city. That's time, resources, and manpower to attempt a plethora of other things. He had no idea how many people he could have helped save in the time it took him to massacre them.

    While Arthas might be an interesting literary character for a video game, he really isn't all that complicated. He's powerful, but he's young, immature, stubborn, and hotheaded. He might truly have cared for the people of his kingdom, but his character flaws (and the trap that was laid out for him) led him down a path of corruption. He's a textbook anti-villain (until he picks up Frostmourne and becomes just a plain old villain). He uses "the greater good" to commit evil acts, and while his desperation might be relatable we as the audience are not meant to condone his extreme actions.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2021-03-26 at 04:33 AM.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Yeah, and that argument is still bullshit. Arthas had resources and manpower. To evacuate and quarantine the entire city? No.
    Then case closed. He simply did not have the resources, manpower or time to do anything other than either let everyone in the city turn and brutally murder those who haven't, or go inside himself with his troops and kill those before they turned.

    He must have known that it would take time to purge the city of all life. He could have used that time to pursue at least several options that didn't involve killing civilians.
    It was the only viable option with the time they had. Anything else would take too long.

    Arthas couldn't know how long it would take to purge the whole city and if he would even succeed, so how can you use the "no time" argument when his whole plan was also based on a hunch.
    I've repeated this multiple times, and I originally said this to you. It's obvious:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Now take all your numbers and think on this:

    • Time used analyzing the situation.
    • Time used coming up with logistics and devising a strategy.
    • Time used up to gather the manpower and resources.
    • Time used up to prepare a location to house an ENTIRE CITY's worth of people.
    • Time used up to escort small parts of the city at a time.

    versus:

    • Time used up to head in and mercifully kill everyone.

    No, I'm sure you truly believe that taking it upon yourself to dole out mercy killings is the right choice and that you still care about the citizens you murder. I just think you're morally bankrupt and full of platitudes to make your morbid thoughts sound reasonable.
    Then you are dead wrong. By that same token, by the way, I can say you're morally bankrupt and full of platitudes to make your morbid thoughts about letting everyone inside Stratholme either suffer by turning into a mindless undead, or suffer by being brutally murdered by their own children/spouse/sibling/parent/neighbor/etc who turned into a mindless undead. Because that is what all your offered options entail: everyone inside Stratholme horrifically dies, because all of your options would take too long to even begin implementing.

    The trolley problem is a joke of a morality test. First off, it's set up with parameters that allow only two options and a split second decision/action. Unlike the Arthas situation which have a whole variety of options and hours to carry them out.
    Except it isn't. Just like the "train trolley", time is of the essence and you don't have time to think. Again, I'll remind you that people started turning shortly after Arthas entered Stratholme.

    The trolley problem takes away pretty much all agency from the subject and it's aim is to make you weigh lives like a mathematical equation.
    Which is precisely what Arthas had to do: weight in the lives of those in Stratholme vs the lives of everyone else in his kingdom.

    Also, unlike the Arthas Problem, you know immediately that the trolley only has two outcomes.
    Same thing with the "Arthas Problem", as you dubbed it: thanks to time being of the utmost essence, there were only two outcomes: let everyone die and make Stratholme into an army of the dead, or kill everyone before they turned.

    Wrong. That was Arthas' excuse.
    And also a fact, considering that, again, people started turning into undead shortly after he entered Stratholme.
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  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    /snip
    Your base premise that he only had the one choice is wrong. "It was the only viable option with the time they had" is meaningless because he had no idea how much time he had. In the time it took him to argue with Uther he could have issued the necessary commands to take another approach. That's why there is a chain of command. He only has to relay a few orders to his captains which in turn are carried out down the line.

    Uther says "There must be some other way", Arthas says "You're right. You, you, and you. Order your men to set up a quarantine zone here, outside the walls. Watch out, many of these villagers will become undead soon so keep people in controlled groups. Try to separate the sick from the healthy. You, you, and you. You and your men are coming with me into the city, we're going to funnel out as many people as we can. Keep an eye out for anyone who is sick, they could turn at any moment. Those who are not sick, rally them to fight the undead that we will begin to encounter"

    That took less than 30 seconds to read out loud. Less time than it took Arthas to argue with Uther and Jaina (yeah, I rewatched the cinematic to time their brief exchange). I call bullshit on your idea that there was no time to do anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Okay. First: it wasn't "just this morning". Second, grains is the base of the overwhelming majority of food people of that time eat that is NOT fruit or vegetable. So the chances you were infected were incredibly high.
    That doesn't take into account the possibility that many people might have still been eating food that used the grain from before the tainted shipments arrived. We know the plague takes about 3 days from infection to death, so if people were turning when Arthas arrived the tainted grain had only been available for about 3 days. As far as I know, there are no sources to say that food was scarce so the bad grain had to be used immediately. In fact, Stratholme was a fairly prosperous port town so it's perfectly reasonable to believe that a lot of its people didn't NEED to consume the tainted grain immediately, instead continuing to rely on food that had been prepared prior to the distribution of the tainted grain. That means many could have had days before they turned, and a portion were still uninfected.

    All this breaking down of posts is getting super tedious, so I'm done. All you're doing is using the same, false arguments to try to paint the purge as the only choice. That's a point that Arthas has to hammer home to excuse his actions, but we as the audience should know better. He had the time, resources, and manpower to kill over 10,000 civilians spread out across a city. That's time, resources, and manpower to attempt a plethora of other things. He had no idea how many people he could have helped save in the time it took him to massacre them.

    While Arthas might be an interesting literary character for a video game, he really isn't all that complicated. He's powerful, but he's young, immature, stubborn, and hotheaded. He might truly have cared for the people of his kingdom, but his character flaws (and the trap that was laid out for him) led him down a path of corruption. He's a textbook anti-villain (until he picks up Frostmourne and becomes just a plain old villain). He uses "the greater good" to commit evil acts, and while his desperation might be relatable we as the audience are not meant to condone his extreme actions.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2021-03-26 at 04:55 AM.

  6. #306
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Your base premise that he only had the one choice is wrong. "It was the only viable option with the time they had" is meaningless because he had no idea how much time he had. In the time it took him to argue with Uther he could have issued the necessary commands to take another approach. That's why there is a chain of command. He only has to relay a few orders to his captains which in turn are carried out down the line.

    Uther says "There must be some other way", Arthas says "You're right. You, you, and you. Order your men to set up a quarantine zone here, outside the walls. Watch out, many of these villagers will become undead soon so keep people in controlled groups. Try to separate the sick from the healthy. You, you, and you. You and your men are coming with me into the city, we're going to funnel out as many people as we can. Keep an eye out for anyone who is sick, they could turn at any moment. Those who are not sick, rally them to fight the undead that we will begin to encounter"
    And by the time a quarantine zone is foundset up and prepared, Stratholme is a dead city. Not to mention it was impossible to separate those who ate the grain and those who did not.

    That took less than 30 seconds to read out loud. Less time than it took Arthas to argue with Uther and Jaina (yeah, I rewatched the cinematic to time their brief exchange). I call bullshit on your idea that there was no time to do anything else.
    But it certainly won't take thirty seconds to implement.

    That doesn't take into account the possibility that many people might have still been eating food that used the grain from before the tainted shipments arrived. We know the plague takes about 3 days from infection to death, so if people were turning when Arthas arrived the tainted grain had only been available for about 3 days. As far as I know, there are no sources to say that food was scarce so the bad grain had to be used immediately.
    This isn't modern life. They have no fridges or similar type of storage to make food last longer. What is not eaten in a few days is tossed away. So the idea that the grain was used up "right away" holds up.

    All this breaking down of posts is getting super tedious, so I'm done. All you're doing is using the same, false arguments to try to paint the purge as the only choice.
    Except they're not "false" as I've pointed that out numerous times.

    While Arthas might be an interesting literary character for a video game, he really isn't all that complicated. He's powerful, but he's young, immature, stubborn, and hotheaded.
    But not evil, or a villain. At least until he took Frostmourne.
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  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And by the time a quarantine zone is foundset up and prepared, Stratholme is a dead city. Not to mention it was impossible to separate those who ate the grain and those who did not.

    But it certainly won't take thirty seconds to implement.
    It would be implemented IMMEDIATELY. I'm not saying they need to build a fucking hospital. They're traveling soldiers so they likely have some supplies in tow. Use tent poles or standards to denote areas where people should gather and set up a perimeter. You have multiple groups performing different tasks, but acting in unison. I'd tell Jaina to remain with the group outside and to signal if the situation was becoming untenable and they needed more support.

    All versions of the cutscene show infected people displaying symptoms of illness. Antonida's journal also supports the fact that it was a quickly progressing disease that had visually identifiable symptoms. "Fatigue, nausea, fever, to minor hallucinations" were seen in infected non-human creatures, and humans had a more pronounced effect that included necrosis and death. So while one might not be able to identify a newly infected person, someone who was nearing the end of the disease could possibly be identified. Rise of the Lich King notes that both Arthas and Jaina noticed "victims of this Plague became limned with a sickly, green glow".

    While there's some sources that contradict each other, nothing I can find suggests that totally healthy people were dying and immediately returning as zombies.

    How the dungeon journal describes Stratholme:

    It was here that Prince Arthas turned his back on the noble paladin Uther Lightbringer, slaughtering countless residents believed to be infected with the horrific plague of undeath. Ever since, cursed Stratholme has been marred by death, betrayal, and hopelessness.

    It was only BELIEVED that the entire (or even most of) the populace was infected.

    A quick google search also suggests that after being processed in a granary (like at Andorhal), grains can last months, and if dried and stored properly they can even last for years. That's for traditional methods of storage. Stratholme was also a port town, so should have had easy access to fish, which could be smoked to last for months as well. So no, there's no reason to believe that most of the populace HAD to eat the nearly delivered tainted grain within those three days.

  8. #308
    The purge of Stratholme wasn’t really anything evil. Realistically, it’s what someone would do in dire situations such as that.

    The issue comes from literally everything else afterward...

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except they're not "false" as I've pointed that out numerous times.
    Found a PDF of Rise of the Lich King. This book really doesn't present Arthas the way you think it does.

    “Listen to me. We don’t know how many people are infected. Some of them might not have eaten any of the grain at all—others might not have eaten a lethal dose. We don’t even know what a lethal dose is yet. We know so little—we can’t just slaughter them like animals out of our own fear! ...There’s too much unknown for such a—a drastic solution.
    Jaina is absolutely right. There was no way for Arthas to know how many were infected. Could have been only 1/10th of the city for all he knew.

    “I...that would be my personal choice, yes. But we can’t make that choice for them. Don’t you see?”
    Again, Jaina is correct, but Arthas simply refuses to entertain that notion. The idea that his personal belief on how he wants to die should be applied to everyone is echoed later by Falric and the men that remained. Though their agreement is "murmured" Arthas takes that as affirmation of his beliefs (" There were murmurs of agreement and Arthas’s heart lifted"). It's a coping mechanism to sterilize the massacre they're about to commit.

    No. No, she couldn’t be. Because if she was right, then he was about to become a mass murderer, and he knew that wasn’t who he was. He knew it.
    Again, coping mechanism. He's doing his best to push reason from his mind and let his pride and emotions guide him. He knew Jaina was right, but he couldn't reconcile that with his inability to think of another solution. Arthas NEVER even considers that something else could be done. It's pride, to think that the solution he picked is the one and only true solution.

    It was a relief when some of the citizens of Stratholme began to fight back. Then the self- defense instinct kicked in. They still did not have a chance against professional soldiers and a trained paladin.
    That's not the quick and clean death you profess Arthas meted out. After the initial shock, fear and self preservation took over. If there was struggle and combat, it wasn't quick and clean executions like when he first entered the city and caved in a little boy's chest.

    There are also a lot of very clear moments to tell the reader when Arthas is acting in the wrong. When he fights the undead at Hearthglen, he and his men are bolstered by the power of the Light flowing through him. When he's purging Stratholme, he notes with surprise that he no longer radiated the holy Light that had helped him in battle before. Even when he confronts Mal'Ganis himself his hammer only glows faintly.

    "Maybe. Or maybe he’s some ally of this Mal’Ganis. Or maybe he’s just some crazy hermit. Nothing he can say will make me abandon my homeland, Jaina. I don’t care if that madman has seen the future."

    “I am sick of people trying to tell me what I should and shouldn’t do!” The words burst from him, startling himself as much as Jaina."

    "Uther and Jaina blinked at the harsh tone of voice. He was overreacting—Uther wasn’t censuring him; he was praising him."
    Stubborn, hotheaded, and most importantly, prideful. A classic flaw for corrupting storybook heroes. Both Arthas' words and inner thoughts are rife with examples of his anger issues and his constant need to quickly dismiss reasonable thought when it fleetingly pops into his mind. There are several times both before and during the purge when he starts to second guess himself, but he quickly shuts that down. "No, no SURELY I must be right. Can't let pesky "reason" lead me to hesitate and actually consider what I'm doing".

    The idea he only becomes evil once he touches the sword is ignoring the whole point of his arc. He starts off doing something he believes is right, but is truly evil. He then progresses through a series of more and more selfish acts (making off with the fleet, betraying the mercenaries, lying to his men) and in doing so loses more and more of his humanity. Picking up Frostmourne isn't a flick of the switch, it's the culmination of a long road of evil deeds that began with Stratholme.

    ------------------

    One thing the book sort of retcons is the speed at which the plague takes hold. It was noted as three days in some sources, but the book turns it into minutes, maybe an hour at most. Arthas notices the smell of freshly baked bread both at Hearthglen and Stratholme immediately before people begin to turn. That makes it even less believable that everyone (or even a sizeable portion) in the city baked and consumed bread within an hour of Arthas arriving. Everyone across the city was just munching on bread over the course of the hours that it was taking Arthas to burn their buildings? It's far more reasonable to believe that most of the people he was killing by the end of the purge were not infected and had been spending the prior couple hours trying to hide rather than snacking.

    Also, unlike the game where you have to fight Mal'Ganis and his entourage in a race to kill the most civilians, the book makes it seem like Mal'Ganis was only taunting Arthas, spurring him into continuing the purge. Mal'Ganis only appears (alone) after Arthas and his men have slaughtered "every living—and dead—person in the city". That fully supports the idea that Mal'Ganis wasn't really trying to overrun Lordaeron himself. His real aim was just to play on Arthas' personality flaws, trick him into seeding a dormant undead army, stoke the vengeance in him, and lead him to Northrend where his destiny as the Lich King awaited.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2021-03-26 at 07:32 AM.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    I played it and i see why he was right to do it.
    So going for a revenge-trip instead of saving your lands, picking up a cursed blade you have no idea what it'll do to you against your own better judgement. Attacking your own troops and being a fucking idiot.

    That's like. OH BUT HE KILLED A MONSTER THAT LED HIM INTO A TRAP, SO HE DID THE RIGHT THING

    No, he was an idiot, vendictive and got what was coming.

  11. #311
    Doesn’t help that he abandoned his men and left many of them for dead at Northrend even before picking up Frostmourne.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Which is what Arthas did. There was no helping the citizens of Stratholme other than giving them a quick, merciful death. Again: there was no time for anything else.
    Arthas didn't give them a quick, merciful death. He cut them apart with swords and bashed them in with hammers. "Survivors" of the attack classify his efforts as brutal.

    And despite the "no other way" argument, there were those who attempted to evacuate the city. The orphans were safely evacuated, and Eris Havenfire attempted to evacuate but was killed by the Scourge. Shaw notes that Arthas' choice was a mistake and that there were alternative methods that could've been employed to spare some people. And killing the people did no good, because they were just brought back into undeath anyway; given how death knights wielded such magics against Dalaran in the second war, there's no reason Arthas wouldn't have known that necromancy isn't limited in effect to the living.

    Arthas saw no other way to handle the situation, and he was all too willing to see his butchering done. That's not exactly the depiction of mercy that you're claiming. While his motivation was to try to save his kingdom, his actions suggest he cared very little for the actual people of Stratholme.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    All evil motivations. Because all of those were made-up justifications to cover up the intentionally evil acts.
    And that's just where your mistakes start. No, they are genuine beliefs of these people that their acts are necessary and thus not evil. Very few people are intentionally evil, and most of those are so reluctantly.

    If you examine the most evil historical people you invariably find a crapton of self-justification and rationalisation why they had to do what they did and how it was for the good of all. The most evil people in existence are those fully convinced that what they're doing is right to the point that they no longer check.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    How? The city was so big that many, if not most of those who didn't turn would end up killed by the undead before Arthas could save them.
    Most is better than all. You're constantly engaging in the false dilemma that the only options here are "save everybody" or "kill everybody", rather than the more reasonable "save as many as you can".

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    The grain got there days before it wouldn’t only be fresh bread.
    Actually, if it only got there a few days before, it'd likely not even have seen a mill yet, especially during harvest time. Grain is typically stored for use later, when fresh produce isn't as available, not consumed immediately, which also necessitates that you use older stores before starting on the fresh deliveries.
    For that matter, it's rarely eaten whole. Inventoring grain for a whole city would take a while, as would milling it and turning it into baked and other goods.

    It's actually rather unrealistic that anybody partook in it any earlier than the morning Arthas arrived if it only arrived two days earlier.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    So going for a revenge-trip instead of saving your lands, picking up a cursed blade you have no idea what it'll do to you against your own better judgement. Attacking your own troops and being a fucking idiot.

    That's like. OH BUT HE KILLED A MONSTER THAT LED HIM INTO A TRAP, SO HE DID THE RIGHT THING

    No, he was an idiot, vendictive and got what was coming.
    That's not what people are talking about. It's was it right to cull strat.

  15. #315
    Herald of the Titans Nathreim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    The grain got there days before it wouldn’t only be fresh bread.
    Actually in the Book and The Culling of Stratholme dungeon its clear that the tainted grain had only been made into bread that morning. We even have NPC's commenting that the grain finally just arrived after being delayed.

    If it had been consumed for days the people would have already been turning it didn't take long.
    Last edited by Nathreim; 2021-03-26 at 02:59 PM.

  16. #316
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    It would be implemented IMMEDIATELY.
    Oh, really? "Implemented immediately"? You mean that in the time it takes for someone to blink, all the workers and materials have arrived to the area, all the workers finished construction of the quarantine area, and all civilians evacuated to the quarantine area. All of that... "immediately".

    You do know those things take time, right? You know the Warcraft world is not some micro-transaction game in which Arthas could just spend extra premium currency to have the whole thing set up and build in a split-second, right?

    I'm not saying they need to build a fucking hospital.
    Even just building basic fencing to keep people apart from each other and safe from those that turn into undead would take too long.

    They're traveling soldiers so they likely have some supplies in tow.
    I fail to recall seeing or reading about any wagon carrying materials with them. They're traveling soldiers, not traveling craftsman. At best, they travel with the minimum necessary to make camp.

    Use tent poles or standards to denote areas where people should gather and set up a perimeter. You have multiple groups performing different tasks, but acting in unison. I'd tell Jaina to remain with the group outside and to signal if the situation was becoming untenable and they needed more support.
    So simple tent poles to set up a perimeter, meaning all the population would be in an open area, meaning those that turn would have free range to kill a few of the other civilians, or escape in the confusion.

    All versions of the cutscene show infected people displaying symptoms of illness. Antonida's journal also supports the fact that it was a quickly progressing disease that had visually identifiable symptoms. "Fatigue, nausea, fever, to minor hallucinations" were seen in infected non-human creatures, and humans had a more pronounced effect that included necrosis and death. So while one might not be able to identify a newly infected person, someone who was nearing the end of the disease could possibly be identified. Rise of the Lich King notes that both Arthas and Jaina noticed "victims of this Plague became limned with a sickly, green glow".
    And those happened shortly before turning. Remember that Arthas saw the effects of the grain. They look fine until the curse starts turning them.

    It was here that Prince Arthas turned his back on the noble paladin Uther Lightbringer, slaughtering countless residents believed to be infected with the horrific plague of undeath. Ever since, cursed Stratholme has been marred by death, betrayal, and hopelessness.

    It was only BELIEVED that the entire (or even most of) the populace was infected.
    Except we know they were, and so did Arthas. We actually saw those people turning into zombies en masse, and by 'we' I don't mean us, as players. Our characters also witnessed that during the Caverns of Time dungeon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    One thing the book sort of retcons is the speed at which the plague takes hold. It was noted as three days in some sources, but the book turns it into minutes, maybe an hour at most. Arthas notices the smell of freshly baked bread both at Hearthglen and Stratholme immediately before people begin to turn. That makes it even less believable that everyone (or even a sizeable portion) in the city baked and consumed bread within an hour of Arthas arriving. Everyone across the city was just munching on bread over the course of the hours that it was taking Arthas to burn their buildings? It's far more reasonable to believe that most of the people he was killing by the end of the purge were not infected and had been spending the prior couple hours trying to hide rather than snacking.
    Except that is not what happened, was it? We saw people turning into undead in droves shortly after Arthas' arrival to Stratholme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Arthas didn't give them a quick, merciful death. He cut them apart with swords and bashed them in with hammers. "Survivors" of the attack classify his efforts as brutal.
    Of course they would. Because they didn't want to die.

    And despite the "no other way" argument, there were those who attempted to evacuate the city. The orphans were safely evacuated, and Eris Havenfire attempted to evacuate but was killed by the Scourge.
    And how do we know that none of those evacuated were infected?

    Shaw notes that Arthas' choice was a mistake and that there were alternative methods that could've been employed to spare some people.
    Because hindsight is not 20/20, right? Shaw had the luxury of time and information that wasn't available at the time, too.

    And killing the people did no good, because they were just brought back into undeath anyway; given how death knights wielded such magics against Dalaran in the second war, there's no reason Arthas wouldn't have known that necromancy isn't limited in effect to the living.

    Arthas saw no other way to handle the situation, and he was all too willing to see his butchering done. That's not exactly the depiction of mercy that you're claiming. While his motivation was to try to save his kingdom, his actions suggest he cared very little for the actual people of Stratholme.
    You're welcome to your opinion, however wrong it is. He did care for the people of Stratholme. That was the whole point of giving them a quick death before they turned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    And that's just where your mistakes start. No, they are genuine beliefs of these people that their acts are necessary and thus not evil. Very few people are intentionally evil, and most of those are so reluctantly.
    There is no mistake. The crusades were done with the intention to expand the influence of the christian church and to acquire more wealth. The whole "holy war" thing was just a pretense. Same thing with the witch hunts: they were done to consolidate the power of the church over the masses, by giving them an enemy, a boogeyman (or "boogeywoman" in this case) to fear and fight against.

    The problem is that all that (holy wars, witch hunts) are just lies to cover up the true intention behind those actions. Here, with Arthas, there is no lie. It's an actual desperate measure to an actual desperate situation.

    Most is better than all. You're constantly engaging in the false dilemma that the only options here are "save everybody" or "kill everybody", rather than the more reasonable "save as many as you can".
    Except there was no way to save people. There was no way to identify those who were infected and those who weren't unless the infected was almost at the point of turning.

    It's actually rather unrealistic that anybody partook in it any earlier than the morning Arthas arrived if it only arrived two days earlier.
    Except that is exactly what happened, wasn't it? Because people started turning into undead in droves shortly after Arthas arrived.
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    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    Actually in the Book its clear that the tainted grain had only been made into bread that morning. If it had been consumed for days the people would have already been turning it didn't take long.
    The book never says when the grain first started to be cooked just that they smelt it baking when they got there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    Play Wc3 and you'll see why Arthas was wrong. Not that hard to understand.
    He is in the right, purging Stratholme was the best choice. The only wrong was that he didn't assess the situation properly
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  19. #319
    There wasn't time. The situation was assessed as much as it could be by simply realizing the grain was distributed and that it was too late to save the town. There were no other options and taking the time to deliberate on them would mean people turning and the plague spreading through the town all the more.

    There. Was. No. Time.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except we know they were, and so did Arthas. We actually saw those people turning into zombies en masse, and by 'we' I don't mean us, as players. Our characters also witnessed that during the Caverns of Time dungeon.

    Except that is not what happened, was it? We saw people turning into undead in droves shortly after Arthas' arrival to Stratholme.
    No. Not at all. After reading the book, it's very clear that the idea that the whole city was infected is nothing but a lie Arthas told himself. Watching people turn was only described in his experience at Hearthglen. At Stratholme the first people he killed were living people, a mother and young boy. After the initial murders, people started fighting back, but those were still living people as well. There were pockets of undead here and there, but the book makes it pretty clear that the majority of the population were cut down as people. There was no "droves" of undead or descriptions of people turning en masse. We can assume that at least some were seen turning, but not all, or even most.

    Pain clenched Arthas’s heart at the first one he struck down—a youth, barely out of puberty
    ...and himself lit the torches that burned down the buildings full of screaming people locked inside
    It was a relief when some of the citizens of Stratholme began to fight back.
    How long it took to slaughter every living—and dead—person in the city, Arthas would never be able to tell.
    It isn't until later, when Mal'Ganis first begins to taunt Arthas that he is attacked by "a throng of undead, three deep" (not a lot for a city of 25,000). Hearing Mal'Ganis' voice made Arthas feel vindicated. Vindicated that he hadn't spent all that time killing innocent, living people for no reason. It's assumed that at least some people were witnessed turning, but it's never said outright. Perhaps Mal'Ganis was able to essentially turn or plant a few pockets here to make sure Arthas continued his war crime.

    ...the sick, sweet scent of poisoned bread, hanging in the air even though the bakery itself was a burning building.
    Also of note is that even after hours of slaughter, with the entire city on fire, Arthas could still smell that scent of the poisoned bread on the air. No one else, either at the gates of Stratholme or inside mention anything about the smell of bread. The way that reads to me, given how unlikely that would be that the smell was still noticeable after so much time, is that it may have all been in his mind. He remembered the smell from back in Hearthglen, and maybe he did catch the scent when he arrived outside Stratholme. After all, that was the triggering event that led him to think the whole city must be purged. He didn't see grain crates, he didn't see anyone turning, he didn't see anyone sick. He smelled bread, and that was it.

    And then even when that smell should realistically have dissipated, his mind still told him it was there because that was the thing that led to the slaughter. Maybe it was his mind playing tricks on him as a coping mechanism, or maybe it was even Mal'Ganis playing on the prince's paranoia.

    Anyway, those are quotes (in order) from the novel that describes the whole endeavor. I've also noted several in game sources in other posts. All you've done is continued to parrot the idea that we KNEW the whole city was infected, though you have zero evidence to back that up. The book that details the relevant exchanges between the characters involved AND shows us the inner thoughts of the central character do not in any shape or form suggest that Arthas was right in what he did. It does the opposite, showing that he made a rash decision with almost no information or evidence. He made a plan to kill as many living people as he could and he succeeded, though neither he nor the audience could truly say that many, much less most, were infected.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2021-03-26 at 04:46 PM.

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