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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    So going for a revenge-trip instead of saving your lands, picking up a cursed blade you have no idea what it'll do to you against your own better judgement. Attacking your own troops and being a fucking idiot.

    That's like. OH BUT HE KILLED A MONSTER THAT LED HIM INTO A TRAP, SO HE DID THE RIGHT THING

    No, he was an idiot, vendictive and got what was coming.
    Attacking the source of the corruption that ravaged your land. Thrusting a friend he met by pure luck to find a powerfull artifact that could help him in his quest. Willingly giving up his life to save his people.

    No one, absolutely no one could have guessed that the powerfull sword he heard about by Muradin he randomly met in northrend was on purpose put there to corrupt him by the one mastermind behind the attacks on his lands.

    No one could have guessed "the evil on northrend launched a campain against lordaeron with the purpose of bringing the young prince of lordaeron in northrend so he could be mind corrupted."

    It's easy to say afterward he was an idiot because he failed. Simply because he felt into a trap that made absolutely no sense at all.

    His last sane words were for his people. He was not an idiot. Just a prince ready to do everything to save his people.
    An idiot would be Medhiv. If he thought at any moment that he was usefull in any way to prevent the coming of the legion.
    An idiot would be Terenas to not caring about the urgent warnings of the kirin tor.
    A complete asshole would be Uther for leaving Stratholme behind to get back his titles and sabotage Arthas campain behind his back.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And how do we know that none of those evacuated were infected?
    We don't. In fact, if we accept your arguments here, it's very likely some of them were. And you know what? Lordaeron survived that throughout Arthas' campaign in Northrend, standing strong until his return and the assassination of Terenas. It continued to limp along after a full scourge army attack and the invasion of the Burning Legion, only truly being stamped out once Sylvanas rose to power.

    You're welcome to your opinion, however wrong it is. He did care for the people of Stratholme. That was the whole point of giving them a quick death before they turned.
    It's interesting, because Kalec does note that Arthas acted out of misguided compassion, and yet his actions suggest he zealously butchered the people. The interlude between the Culling and the trip to Northrend shows that he impaled their corpses on spikes, and he never attempted to use the light to resurrect any of them, despite having the ability to do so at the time. Call me crazy, but that doesn't seem very respectful to me. Maybe he's just a sociopath.

    I'm curious: aside from those who did the culling, can you find one character in lore that condoned that strategy as a way of dealing with the infected? You've already said that we can't compare it to our world, so let's just look at it through the lens of theirs. I can point you to members of the Scarlet Crusade who thought Arthas was wrong, and they're easily the most zealous group against the undead.

    I'm not saying the culling wasn't a justifiable solution to the problem, but it wasn't the only one, and it definitely wasn't a "good" action (from an alignment perspective) as it is depicted now. Interestingly, within the actual WC3 mission, you can simply wait for people to turn before killing them, so the event as it was originally presented is far less objectionable than the way it has canonically been presented after (and suggests that he could have killed the people after they turned instead of before, though obviously mechanics =/= lore).

  3. #323
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    and he never attempted to use the light to resurrect any of them, despite having the ability to do so at the time.
    I’m pretty sure arthas never had the power to resurrect with the light unless I missed something.

    Resurrection requires a ton of power and even Uther doesn’t do it and he’s way stronger in the light then Arthas ever was.

  4. #324
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Also of note is that even after hours of slaughter, with the entire city on fire, Arthas could still smell that scent of the poisoned bread on the air. No one else, either at the gates of Stratholme or inside mention anything about the smell of bread. The way that reads to me, given how unlikely that would be that the smell was still noticeable after so much time, is that it may have all been in his mind.
    Maybe. But, at the same time, the book was being written mostly from Arthas' perspective, was it not? So it's natural that we would have a focus on Arthas' thoughts and feelings, and not the others. The book not mentioning other people commenting on the scent of bread is not proof that only Arthas could smell it therefore it was only in his head.

    After all, that was the triggering event that led him to think the whole city must be purged. He didn't see grain crates, he didn't see anyone turning, he didn't see anyone sick. He smelled bread, and that was it.
    The Culling of Stratholme quests show us that Arthas' forces noticed the cursed grain just outside Stratholme. After all, the whole quest was about us undoing the Infinite Dragonflight's magic that was hiding the cursed grain, so Arthas' troops could notice it:
    "If they can convince him that none of the grain here carries the plague, then he'll never have to make the fateful decision to cull Stratholme."
    "You have done well, friend. The plagued grain was exposed to Arthas' troops."


    Anyway, those are quotes (in order) from the novel that describes the whole endeavor. I've also noted several in game sources in other posts. All you've done is continued to parrot the idea that we KNEW the whole city was infected, though you have zero evidence to back that up.
    When you ignore what people say, it's easy to claim no evidence has been shown, I suppose.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    We don't. In fact, if we accept your arguments here, it's very likely some of them were. And you know what? Lordaeron survived that throughout Arthas' campaign in Northrend, standing strong until his return and the assassination of Terenas. It continued to limp along after a full scourge army attack and the invasion of the Burning Legion, only truly being stamped out once Sylvanas rose to power.
    Except none of that proves that Arthas' incursion through Stratholme was a failure or success, does it? None of that tells of the situation in Stratholme.

    and he never attempted to use the light to resurrect any of them, despite having the ability to do so at the time. Call me crazy, but that doesn't seem very respectful to me. Maybe he's just a sociopath.
    As far as I understand things, actual resurrection is not really a thing in Warcraft. At least, not to the point of being something so common. Otherwise, it raises the question: why wasn't Cairne resurrected? Why wasn't Varian resurrected? Or Vol'jin? Or Admiral Taylor? Or Dranosh? Or Saurfang? Or every single character that died in the history of Warcraft?

    I'm curious: aside from those who did the culling, can you find one character in lore that condoned that strategy as a way of dealing with the infected? You've already said that we can't compare it to our world, so let's just look at it through the lens of theirs. I can point you to members of the Scarlet Crusade who thought Arthas was wrong, and they're easily the most zealous group against the undead.
    You just mentioned Kalecgos, did you not?

    I'm not saying the culling wasn't a justifiable solution to the problem, but it wasn't the only one,
    It was the only possible course of action with the resources, time and manpower at hand. The only other course would be inaction.
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  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    I guess you didnt read "Rise of the lich king" where arthas and jaina literally go to a town and run into people then literally watch them transform into zombies after eating the bread, then jaina sits down to eat some cheese and arthas yells at her "fucking cut that shit, we need to save people we dont got time for you to eat shit"
    that's a terrible retcon, it destroys the complexity of Arthas' actions there
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  6. #326
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    that's a terrible retcon, it destroys the complexity of Arthas' actions there
    how? They know people are turning into undead.
    its not like arthas is the only one who knows about it.-

  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    how? They know people are turning into undead.
    its not like arthas is the only one who knows about it.-
    yes Uther and Jaina still never saw a zombie in WC3, just skeletons and perhaps ghouls (who are like mutation 2.0 compared to Zombie) and let alone a villager turning into a zombie
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  8. #328
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    yes Uther and Jaina still never saw a zombie in WC3, just skeletons and perhaps ghouls (who are like mutation 2.0 compared to Zombie) and let alone a villager turning into a zombie
    ... "They only saw undead, why would they think undead exist!"

  9. #329
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    Arthas wasn't wrong since there was no cure, it was lethal 100% and the victims would be scourgified 100%. What he did wrong was the way he handled it, Jaina and Uther should have agreed with him and figure out a more humane way to purge the city. If Jaina had a mass sleep spell that she could cast in the city, maybe it would have been better.

  10. #330
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amaterasu65 View Post
    Arthas wasn't wrong since there was no cure, it was lethal 100% and the victims would be scourgified 100%. What he did wrong was the way he handled it, Jaina and Uther should have agreed with him and figure out a more humane way to purge the city. If Jaina had a mass sleep spell that she could cast in the city, maybe it would have been better.
    Sadly there is no sleep spell for humanoids, only animals, castable by druids : /

  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    ... "They only saw undead, why would they think undead exist!"
    surely they'd think of Necromancers simply raising the dead and/or stitching abominations but not food that turns people undead
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  12. #332
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    surely they'd think of Necromancers simply raising the dead and/or stitching abominations but not food that turns people undead
    So raising people from the dead nah thats totally normal, but people being turned undead by poisoned food!? gasp thats impossible!!!!!!!!

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The Culling of Stratholme quests show us that Arthas' forces noticed the cursed grain just outside Stratholme. After all, the whole quest was about us undoing the Infinite Dragonflight's magic that was hiding the cursed grain, so Arthas' troops could notice it
    This is kind of the issue with trying to tell the same story multiple times through multiple mediums. In neither WC3 nor the novelization is anything mentioned about seeing cursed grain crates outside the city. Even in the instance, there's no mention of them since the exchange at the gates is copied verbatim from WC3. The games have to make it into a playable mission so they take A LOT of liberties with the story.

    In WC3 Mal'Ganis makes his way throughout the city with an entourage of ghouls and aboms, and he can be encountered and killed multiple times throughout the mission. You also see people who are clearly just walking around sick well before they turn. In the scenario, Arthas also has part of his forces building camp nearby, which of course doesn't match later iterations of the event. We also know (after the fact) that Mal'Ganis isn't trying to raise an army for himself or kill Arthas, but rather just goad him to go to Northrend.

    In the Caverns of Time instance, the city has cult of the damned necromancers, nerubians, and other types of undead doted throughout. Arthas also leaves most of his men outside the gates and only enters with the player group. And unlike WC3 where you're trying to kill villagers before they turn, in this scenario Arthas only kills 2 humans at the gates and then the entire city simply becomes ghouls and zombies which means there is NO CULLING! Yeah, I wouldn't take anything in the Culling of Stratholme instance at face value.

    In both game versions, Arthas also leaves most of his forces posted outside the city. In the book, most of the troops leave with Uther and he proceeds with the purge with all the ones who remained.

    The best source is still the book. Its whole point is to depict the story without worrying about quests, balance, and other game mechanics, as well as give us the inner thoughts of the main characters along the way. The book makes a point of noting that the smell of bread (which Arthas keeps smelling even hours later when the blood, smoke, and time should have drowned it out) is what convinces him the city is infected. No grain crates, no zombification. It very clearly states that Arthas killed mostly living humans, meeting only sporadic zombie forces. He only finds out Mal'Ganis is indeed there a while into the slaughter, and only confronts him at the very end (he never witnesses Mal'Ganis gathering undead, and indeed finds him alone before he teleports out).

    The book most strongly supports the story that Arthas made a rash decision with very little evidence, killed mostly living humans who he could not have known were infected or not, and the ultimate plan was for Mal'Ganis to trick Arthas into following him to Northrend, not raise an undead army and spread across the kingdom.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    I’m pretty sure arthas never had the power to resurrect with the light unless I missed something.

    Resurrection requires a ton of power and even Uther doesn’t do it and he’s way stronger in the light then Arthas ever was.
    It's the paladin's heroic ability in WC3. Arthas was able to use it starting during the Culling of Stratholme and throughout Northrend. It requires the recently deceased, which the people were. Also, doesn't Uther use it when Arthas as a death knight confronts him (maybe only on hard difficulty)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    As far as I understand things, actual resurrection is not really a thing in Warcraft. At least, not to the point of being something so common. Otherwise, it raises the question: why wasn't Cairne resurrected? Why wasn't Varian resurrected? Or Vol'jin? Or Admiral Taylor? Or Dranosh? Or Saurfang? Or every single character that died in the history of Warcraft?
    Farseer Grimwalker is the first example that comes to mind of a character canonically being resurrected. Whitemane famously does it in the encounter in the Scarlet Monastery. Obviously we have Terenas and Eonar resurrecting players in the Lich King and Argus fights. While the last two examples could be excused as game mechanics, the first is an instance of a dead tauren being brought back to life outside of encounter mechanics. Also, Zekhan was brought back by Bwonsamdi, though it's not clear to me whether he was dead or dying (but considering his soul was traveling to the Maw, I assume dead).

    With respect to your specific examples, I can't say for certain why Cairne wasn't, though I can speculate: he willingly entered a challenge to the death, so bringing him back would be to against his willingness to die for that cause; furthermore, his appearance in the tauren heritage questline has him taking some role in balancing the spirit realm, so there may be some cause for him to want to stay there. Varian was killed with fel magic and body destroyed, so he may not even have a soul anymore. Vol'jin is being actively resurrected in the Winter Court, so I'm not sure why he's a counter argument. I don't recall the details of Admiral Taylor's death, but I know his soul was lingering not unlike the Court of Farondis, who are actively looking for a means to return to the living, so again it seems like it may be possible but difficult. Dranosh was absorbed into Frostmourne and thus could not be brought back until Tirion destroyed the sword. Saurfang, again as speculation, died to a Jailer-pumped up Sylvanas, so it's possible that the death magic employed blocked resurrection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You just mentioned Kalecgos, did you not?
    Kalecgos said Arthas had misguided compassion, not that the Culling was a good or even necessary thing. He was using that example when persuading Jaina not to destroy Orgrimmar, saying that it would be akin to the Culling, except even worse since it would be done out of vengeance, which is far from condoning the action.
    Last edited by Aresk; 2021-03-26 at 06:36 PM.

  15. #335
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    It's the paladin's heroic ability in WC3. Arthas was able to use it starting during the Culling of Stratholme and throughout Northrend. It requires the recently deceased, which the people were. Also, doesn't Uther use it when Arthas as a death knight confronts him (maybe only on hard difficulty)?
    That's gameplay not lore one doesn't tend to translate to the other neither of them use it at all in the lore.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    So raising people from the dead nah thats totally normal, but people being turned undead by poisoned food!? gasp thats impossible!!!!!!!!
    When you live in a world where the former, while not commonplace, is certainly not unheard of, but the latter never happened? Well, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    The book most strongly supports the story that Arthas made a rash decision with very little evidence, killed mostly living humans who he could not have known were infected or not, and the ultimate plan was for Mal'Ganis to trick Arthas into following him to Northrend, not raise an undead army and spread across the kingdom.
    If you take the book version, it's even possible that what few undead he actually met were deliberately introduced by Mal'ganis to goad Arthas into breaking his oaths, rather than the city actually being infected.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    If you take the book version, it's even possible that what few undead he actually met were deliberately introduced by Mal'ganis to goad Arthas into breaking his oaths, rather than the city actually being infected.
    Exactly. The passage in the book where Mal'Ganis first addresses Arthas (he and his men only hear the voice, they don't see the dreadlord till all the slaughter is over) coincides with the first time they're attacked by undead. They don't even see a transformation, it's just a group of zombies that bursts out of one house.

    ...even as Arthas’s men, who also heard the voice, turned and sought the source, the doors of a house where villagers had been hiding was flung open and walking corpses hastened out.
    Given that this occurs after encountering only civilians, first the ones who were too shocked to act and then the ones who managed to put up a fight, it definitely could be read as being part of Mal'Ganis' scheme to make Arthas believe that he had to keep purging.

  18. #338
    Stood in the Fire Karreck's Avatar
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    The intentional killing of innocents is an evil act.
    Full stop.
    Princesses can kill knights to rescue dragons.

  19. #339
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    It's the paladin's heroic ability in WC3. Arthas was able to use it starting during the Culling of Stratholme and throughout Northrend. It requires the recently deceased, which the people were. Also, doesn't Uther use it when Arthas as a death knight confronts him (maybe only on hard difficulty)?
    You're not going to use game mechanics as lore, are you?

    Farseer Grimwalker is the first example that comes to mind of a character canonically being resurrected. Whitemane famously does it in the encounter in the Scarlet Monastery. Obviously we have Terenas and Eonar resurrecting players in the Lich King and Argus fights. While the last two examples could be excused as game mechanics, the first is an instance of a dead tauren being brought back to life outside of encounter mechanics. Also, Zekhan was brought back by Bwonsamdi, though it's not clear to me whether he was dead or dying (but considering his soul was traveling to the Maw, I assume dead).
    Eonar is a Titan. The Titan of life, and considering the immense power of Titans, I wouldn't put resurrection on it. Terenas, though, it could be explained by saying we're not dead as in "lore-wise dead" but more like knocked out, and Terenas brings us back.

    But again, there's still the fact that actual resurrection is very, very uncommonly seen in Warcraft lore, especially with such big shots being killed and not revived, like Cairne and Varian, and those around them mourning their losses. All of that indicates that actual resurrection isn't exactly a common or even easy thing to do.

    With respect to your specific examples, I can't say for certain why Cairne wasn't, though I can speculate: he willingly entered a challenge to the death, so bringing him back would be to against his willingness to die for that cause; furthermore, his appearance in the tauren heritage questline has him taking some role in balancing the spirit realm, so there may be some cause for him to want to stay there. Varian was killed with fel magic and body destroyed, so he may not even have a soul anymore. Vol'jin is being actively resurrected in the Winter Court, so I'm not sure why he's a counter argument. I don't recall the details of Admiral Taylor's death, but I know his soul was lingering not unlike the Court of Farondis, who are actively looking for a means to return to the living, so again it seems like it may be possible but difficult. Dranosh was absorbed into Frostmourne and thus could not be brought back until Tirion destroyed the sword. Saurfang, again as speculation, died to a Jailer-pumped up Sylvanas, so it's possible that the death magic employed blocked resurrection.
    You didn't understand my examples. I said that if resurrection is so uncommon and simple to do, why weren't those characters raised soon after death? Cairne died in a battle to the death, yes, but said battle was rigged, and Garrosh killed Cairne by unknowingly (arguable, but that's not here or there) having his weapon coated in poison. Why didn't Baine resurrect his father who was killed by someone who was in violation of the rules of the duel? And Vol'jin, again: he was the warchief of the Horde. Why would the Horde not resurrect his warchief after his death instead of burning his body in a pyre?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Karreck View Post
    The intentional killing of innocents is an evil act.
    Full stop.
    So trying to prevent an incurable, untreatable, undetectable curse condemn everyone into becoming a mindless, raging undead is an evil act?
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  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    However it scarred him psychologically and reputationally as such things are wont to do, setting the stage for being corrupted as he was.
    He needed Jaina the most, he needed Uther, instead they made him know only he was right and then Lich King born...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So trying to prevent an incurable, untreatable, undetectable curse condemn everyone into becoming a mindless, raging undead is an evil act?
    no it isn't
    And this maybe first time EVER i see someone say Stratholme was a wrong act
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