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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    He writes them off immediately and doesn't try to explain himself, which is a similar attitude he takes to a lethal level when it's down to the mercs. Like you say, it's not the specific decision but what it tells about him as a purpose and how it's later expanded on. Stratholme isn't really the end point of his story, just the one where it shows what sort of person he is.

    That said, while I agree him leaving for Northrend was a mistake, I don't think that purging the city itself is. Mal'ganis left because the Purge meant he had nothing left o hand. When the Scourge return to Lordaeron they're down to underground cultists and what guys Arthas brings with him when he kills Terenas, not a proper army. In that sense, Arthas was succesful in driving the Scourge. He fucked up in that he wasn't interested in finishing the job but in going after Mal'ganis personally. Just by going to Northrend he eliminated any advantage in limiting Scourge numbers that he first set up. After the Purge he should've stayed put and worked with Antonidas and company. I don't actually see any strong reason to believe that Medivh is right and they need to ditch Lordaeron. It and Dalaran could've stood their ground.
    It's weird to me how so many seem to ignore this. That Arthas wasn't wrong per se, but it showed a lot about his character and how "bad" he was already turning out to be due to how he handled stratholme. He was bad before frostmourne got to him and his choices in stratholme is, to me, one of the big factors WHY frostmourne and lich king could influence him.
    Best example I can think of is that if you have a patient who needs to have their leg amputated or they will die. You have one who is a doctor and does what needs to be done. They probably won't feel good about doing it and they can empathise with the patient about it. But it has to be done.
    Then you have someone who seems to be more eager to actually chop the leg of for the sake of chopping of the leg. One of them you probably don't want to have dinner alone with. And I know who I would pick.

    The idea of stratholme and why it's good is because of these nuances; that he does the right thing, but it's very obviously quickly that he isn't doing it for the right reasons. It's his process to justify it for himself and towards others to achieve his goal. I feel like a lot who are hell bent on that he was "right" objectively seem to miss this nuance.

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    He writes them off immediately and doesn't try to explain himself, which is a similar attitude he takes to a lethal level when it's down to the mercs. Like you say, it's not the specific decision but what it tells about him as a purpose and how it's later expanded on. Stratholme isn't really the end point of his story, just the one where it shows what sort of person he is.
    While true, there wasn't much explaining needed. Jaina was with him in Hearthglen, she saw what happened to the people there, Uther arrived late but I doubt he did not get a sitrep. Arthas was headstrong and arrogant, but he was also right and both Jaina and Uther should have seen this. I can't fault Jaina for backing away, she was what 17 or 18? Not an age where you are usually able to make a calm decision over killing hundreds of people, but Uther is an experienced Paladin. He should have been able to see the situation realistically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    That said, while I agree him leaving for Northrend was a mistake, I don't think that purging the city itself is. Mal'ganis left because the Purge meant he had nothing left o hand. When the Scourge return to Lordaeron they're down to underground cultists and what guys Arthas brings with him when he kills Terenas, not a proper army. In that sense, Arthas was succesful in driving the Scourge. He fucked up in that he wasn't interested in finishing the job but in going after Mal'ganis personally. Just by going to Northrend he eliminated any advantage in limiting Scourge numbers that he first set up. After the Purge he should've stayed put and worked with Antonidas and company. I don't actually see any strong reason to believe that Medivh is right and they need to ditch Lordaeron. It and Dalaran could've stood their ground.
    This is true. Of course it was a clever scheme, with Mal'ganis being the lure to get Arthas to come to Northrend and get Forstmourne, but it only succeeded because the young prince fell for it. Which he might not have if after Stratholme there had been people to support him. Without them he felt he was the only one doing what was needed (which is not far from the truth. Uther was after all occupied complaining to Terenas) and he thought the only way to end the Scourge for good was killing Mal'ganis.
    And yes I am also a bit confused with Medivh. I mean, Dalaran had literal anti-undead shields. They could have destroyed the rest of the Cult pretty easily and secured Lordaeron after Stratholme. Without Arthas fighting and coordinating the undead they are much less of a threat.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    While true, there wasn't much explaining needed. Jaina was with him in Hearthglen, she saw what happened to the people there, Uther arrived late but I doubt he did not get a sitrep. Arthas was headstrong and arrogant, but he was also right and both Jaina and Uther should have seen this. I can't fault Jaina for backing away, she was what 17 or 18? Not an age where you are usually able to make a calm decision over killing hundreds of people, but Uther is an experienced Paladin. He should have been able to see the situation realistically.
    None of those present had any idea that Mal'ganis would be teleporting the zombies away as they did, nor that there was no cure. We know from later on that the Kirin Tor do actually have spells that stop undead in an area since they use it vs. Arthas. Hesitating at the idea of offing the entire population isn't really a character failing on them, especially when it's the absolute first option presented. Arthas doesn't try to explain himself to them at all but immediately pulls rank. Mind, he also has his own reasons to act emotional in that case, but like @Kumorii says, it tells a lot about him that this is the first thing he goes to and also how his actions only escalate past that point.

    Could they have backed him up after he did it? Sure, and it might have sorted things. At that point Arthas had made a difficult, but correct call and if he wanted to continue defeating the Scourge and securing Lordaeron, he could've headed back, sorted things with his dad and even settled things with Uther. We know from what we see later that Uther was far from impossible to convince and Arthas's case isn't a weak one. Arthas heading to Northrend was a mistake and an obvious one and his tunnel vision on himself and on Mal'ganis are what leads to a lot that follows. The fact that he takes it as a personal slight is at the root of a lot of his issues going forward and this is itself partly because without Jaina and Uther he has zero people close to him.

    Medivh is kind of a moron when you really look back at the story. His main form of sharing information is to run up and rant at people about incoming non-specific doom while providing no real information. Explaining literally any aspect of what was to happen would have solved everything. Instead of calling Antonidas a dumbass who'll soon be lost he could've mentioned that Dalaran has his demon summoning book and maybe Antonidas should throw it in the incinerator. Also that the Lich King exists. Sadly, Medivh was a socially stunted momma's boy and countless died because of it.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Medivh is kind of a moron when you really look back at the story. His main form of sharing information is to run up and rant at people about incoming non-specific doom while providing no real information. Explaining literally any aspect of what was to happen would have solved everything. Instead of calling Antonidas a dumbass who'll soon be lost he could've mentioned that Dalaran has his demon summoning book and maybe Antonidas should throw it in the incinerator. Also that the Lich King exists. Sadly, Medivh was a socially stunted momma's boy and countless died because of it.
    Not to mention he only warned the humans and orcs, not bothering with the rest.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2021-03-29 at 02:21 PM.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Do you always like to quote conversations that took place days ago? Been there, discussed that. Feel free to read the rest of the conversation since you are obviously so interested.

    But to play your game: I am/was looking at the problem strictly from an R0 factor. Whether the carrier turns into a zombie or dies or turns into a unicorn is largely irrelevant when the only goal is go prevent further spreading of it. I don't really understand why that is so hard for some to grasp, but oh well.
    yes, in fact i waited 5 days this time.

    as far as an R0 factor, considering we didnt handle covid the way we should have and it has spread completely world wide to basically every inch.... id say we failed pretty damn horribly. probably because people werent that worried about it. now if you were to turn into a unicorn then it may have spread even faster, honestly. people would love to be unicorns judging from the popularity of my little pony.

    so... i guess arthas was right. because we as the human race sure as hell didnt pull it off. purging was the correct answer.

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    None of those present had any idea that Mal'ganis would be teleporting the zombies away as they did, nor that there was no cure. We know from later on that the Kirin Tor do actually have spells that stop undead in an area since they use it vs. Arthas. Hesitating at the idea of offing the entire population isn't really a character failing on them, especially when it's the absolute first option presented. Arthas doesn't try to explain himself to them at all but immediately pulls rank. Mind, he also has his own reasons to act emotional in that case, but like @Kumorii says, it tells a lot about him that this is the first thing he goes to and also how his actions only escalate past that point.
    It's indeed his insecurities and inferiority complex showing, that he harbored for a long time. Especially when confronted with more experienced folks. One could spin it positively by saying that pulling rank and giving a clear order he tries to take all the responsibility for what he feels must be done, sparing his men from having to make this horrible decision. Probably not what the story was going for, but it makes somewhat sense. It's similar to destroying the boats in Northrend. By doing that he eliminates the responsibility of his men men having to choose between following him or their king's call home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Could they have backed him up after he did it? Sure, and it might have sorted things. At that point Arthas had made a difficult, but correct call and if he wanted to continue defeating the Scourge and securing Lordaeron, he could've headed back, sorted things with his dad and even settled things with Uther. We know from what we see later that Uther was far from impossible to convince and Arthas's case isn't a weak one. Arthas heading to Northrend was a mistake and an obvious one and his tunnel vision on himself and on Mal'ganis are what leads to a lot that follows. The fact that he takes it as a personal slight is at the root of a lot of his issues going forward and this is itself partly because without Jaina and Uther he has zero people close to him.
    Yep, this is the issue. He took protecting his people extremely personal and every death through the plague physically hurt him and he blamed himself for it, leading to him also starting to consider himself the only one able to deal with it. It's this fixation and the endless compassion he has for his people that Mal'ganis and the Lich King use against him in the end. He was ready to sacrifice everything for his country, his integrity and concience, life and even his soul when he took up what he thought was the only weapon to save his people.
    Thanks to the corruption of Frostmourne he then began to transfer these feelings onto the undead and even began to view his former enemy Kel'thuzad as a trusted friend. His mind was throughly fucked at this point, which makes it really hard for me to take it seriously when Danuser now claims that Arthas was still in control...

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Medivh is kind of a moron when you really look back at the story. His main form of sharing information is to run up and rant at people about incoming non-specific doom while providing no real information. Explaining literally any aspect of what was to happen would have solved everything. Instead of calling Antonidas a dumbass who'll soon be lost he could've mentioned that Dalaran has his demon summoning book and maybe Antonidas should throw it in the incinerator. Also that the Lich King exists. Sadly, Medivh was a socially stunted momma's boy and countless died because of it.
    Yeah... no argument there. He could have carried a sign with "The end is nigh" and he would have been only slightly less believable... I mean he obviously knew about the future... so telling Terenas and Antonidas about the plague might have been a smart choice... and even if that did not work he could have attacked the delivery of the infected grain himself to stop the plague in it's tracks...

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    It's indeed his insecurities and inferiority complex showing, that he harbored for a long time. Especially when confronted with more experienced folks. One could spin it positively by saying that pulling rank and giving a clear order he tries to take all the responsibility for what he feels must be done, sparing his men from having to make this horrible decision. Probably not what the story was going for, but it makes somewhat sense. It's similar to destroying the boats in Northrend. By doing that he eliminates the responsibility of his men men having to choose between following him or their king's call home.

    Yep, this is the issue. He took protecting his people extremely personal and every death through the plague physically hurt him and he blamed himself for it, leading to him also starting to consider himself the only one able to deal with it. It's this fixation and the endless compassion he has for his people that Mal'ganis and the Lich King use against him in the end. He was ready to sacrifice everything for his country, his integrity and concience, life and even his soul when he took up what he thought was the only weapon to save his people.
    Thanks to the corruption of Frostmourne he then began to transfer these feelings onto the undead and even began to view his former enemy Kel'thuzad as a trusted friend. His mind was throughly fucked at this point, which makes it really hard for me to take it seriously when Danuser now claims that Arthas was still in control...
    I consider that a really charitable interpretation that doesn't hold any water, especially the last point. It's not that Arthas cares so much for the people there that he doesn't bear to kill them - never in the book, nor in WC3 especially does Arthas show any emotional reaction to the killing of the people of Stratholme. He doesn't lay this at Mal'ganis' feet nor bring it up. Instead, what he principally blames Mal'ganis for is the personal slight Mal'ganis has dealt him - Mal'ganis didn't just prey upon any kingdom, but upon his kingdom in particular. The kingdom and its people, from Stratholme on and especially once he's a Death Knight are a complete abstraction. A personal possession of Arthas that he feels is harmed by his actions. He heads to Northrend disregarding both his father's wishes and what is the wiser move because he's entirely short of influences who'd guide him otherwise. When he's being recalled, which we've both talked about is the correct move both for his kingdom and for him personally and especially for the men there, he refuses because it's not what he wants and he wouldn't be satisfied with that outcome.

    This isn't some subtle subtext, he says it outright after burning their only way home and trapping them forward so he can achieve his goal and later ditches Muradin - "Damn the men, nothing will keep me from having my revenge". From Stratholme on, it's about him, the kingdom is just the thing he justifies himself with and every time the interests of that kingdom or its men clash with what he personally wants to do - i.e avenge himself on Mal'gais, the latter wins out. This is before he gets the sword. Arthas does not save his men from making a choice out of compassion - he prevents them and himself from making what would have been the viable choice to save the kingdom because it's not what he would want to do. This is said explicitly - "If they leave, I'll never defeat Mal'ganis." It's true that his behaviour once he has the sword is an escalation of this, but only in scale, not in kind - it's in extending this sense of entitlement. The Arthas who puts on his father's crown and then hunts his people for sport or laughs over finding out the urn he's using has his father's ashes in it is exercising the same kingly prerogative over his possessions that he did as a paladin when he stranded them on Northrend to pursue a doomed cause that got everyone there killed, just without the pretext.

    Danuser's comments are entirely on the money and they're one of the few things that give me hope that they won't entirely cock up this character - Arthas without agency, without these traits that tie him to his background is not Arthas at all. It's why the Lich King in Wrath often fell flat - the book shows us Arthas taking agency for every decision and killing Ner'zhul to become sole Lich King, but he acts more like a generic baddie than he ever does the stylish, vindictive prick who laughs over every power and taboo he runs over on his path during WC3.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-03-30 at 01:36 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  8. #388
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josyel View Post
    Yes, we should kill everyone that coughs because they can spread COVID-19.

    ... do you understand why it was wrong now?
    Idk where you are from, but remind me not to go there, because wherever it is covid turns people into fucking zombies.
    or are you trying to compare covid to a fucking zombie plague?

  9. #389
    Bloodsail Admiral tommyhil622's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Idk where you are from, but remind me not to go there, because wherever it is covid turns people into fucking zombies.
    or are you trying to compare covid to a fucking zombie plague?
    I think you missed the point. He's trying to say that killing people is wrong no matter what the twisted justification is. Arthas was wrong to kill people without knowing how to properly deal with the situation. He was irrational and would not listen to anything but his blood thirsty inclination to murder an entire city.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    I think you missed the point. He's trying to say that killing people is wrong no matter what the twisted justification is. Arthas was wrong to kill people without knowing how to properly deal with the situation. He was irrational and would not listen to anything but his blood thirsty inclination to murder an entire city.
    If only Anduin was there, he could fart out light bubble and cure everyone. Jesus, how could warcraft universe exist without him.

  11. #391
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    I think you missed the point. He's trying to say that killing people is wrong no matter what the twisted justification is. Arthas was wrong to kill people without knowing how to properly deal with the situation. He was irrational and would not listen to anything but his blood thirsty inclination to murder an entire city.
    You ever had a pet? A dog, a cat?
    You ever had to ethunize them, because their lives are nearing an end? Maybe they are so old that their organs are giving out, their body is shutting down and life is pain.
    maybe your pet got hit by a car, and there is no chance for survival, ever breath is unbearble anguish.
    and so you kill them, quickly and painlessly to put them out of their misery, and to save them from a long and tortuous death.

    Who is the real monster? the "bloodthirsty murderer who gave your pet the instant painless death" or "The man who sits there watching this poor animal suffer a living hell as their entire body is nothing but a husk of anguish because they refuse to do the merciful thing and ends its life"

    I myself have had 2 cats, one of them developed cancer, uncurable, we took her in because she was yowling all the time crying, we were confused why, she calmed down when we cuddled with her, but we were concenred. they said we had to put her down that day, or we could keep her for another few months and have her still, but she would be in pain and the pain would only grow more and more as time went on.

    Am i a monster for telling them to put her out of her missery?
    or would it have been better for me to subject her to months of pain and torture just so i could call myself a saint "refusing to end a life!" so she could die by "natural causes"

    You are driving through the back woods. Your headlights illuminate a deer in the road, their body crumpled and covered in blood, it seems it got hit by a semi a bit back and is stuck in the road wailing and twitching.

    Your friend gets out of the car, grabs a rock, and in a single hit ends its life.

    That is what people call a mercy killing.

    It seems you do not comprehend the idea.
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2021-03-30 at 01:57 PM.

  12. #392
    Bloodsail Admiral tommyhil622's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    You ever had a pet? A dog, a cat?
    You ever had to ethunize them, because their lives are nearing an end? Maybe they are so old that their organs are giving out, their body is shutting down and life is pain.
    maybe your pet got hit by a car, and there is no chance for survival, ever breath is unbearble anguish.
    and so you kill them, quickly and painlessly to put them out of their misery, and to save them from a long and tortuous death.

    Who is the real monster? the "bloodthirsty murderer who gave your pet the instant painless death" or "The man who sits there watching this poor animal suffer a living hell as their entire body is nothing but a husk of anguish because they refuse to do the merciful thing and ends its life"

    You are driving through the back woods. Your headlights illuminate a deer in the road, their body crumpled and covered in blood, it seems it got hit by a semi a bit back and is stuck in the road wailing and twitching.

    Your friend gets out of the car, grabs a rock, and in a single hit ends its life.

    That is what people call a mercy killing.

    It seems you do not comprehend the idea.
    I'm sorry but i can't see the comparison between a single pet and an entire city where we have no idea that every single person was infected with the plague and that we had 100% certainty that they would all become zombies.

    A pet isn't a human no matter how pet owners try to make it so. Humans require consent, pets don't. You can't kill people just because you think they need to die. Does work that way. Only murderers think that way, like Arthas.

  13. #393
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    I'm sorry but i can't see the comparison between a single pet and an entire city where we have no idea that every single person was infected with the plague and that we had 100% certainty that they would all become zombies.

    A pet isn't a human no matter how pet owners try to make it so. Humans require consent, pets don't. You can't kill people just because you think they need to die. Does work that way. Only murderers think that way, like Arthas.
    Lets hope some day you do not need to make that choice, but for now it is obvious you have never had to make that choice.
    You will some day, be it your mother or father on their death bed, unable to speak, move, emote, you will need to decide to pull the plug, or leave them there a vegetable.

    Then, are you a bloodthirsty murderer?
    A mercy killing is just that, mercy. To end someones life who is already over, but to do so in a merciful manor.

    Most of the time yes humans require consent, but sometimes it is for their better that you do not. Because humans very rarely know what is best for them.

    There is a reason why in most tales humans are common to plea for help when a wound is obviously fatal, and helping them will only prolong their death and suffering.

    There was 100% certainty they would all become zombies, we know that, he knew that, they all knew that, there is not a single person who was there, that knew what was going to happen, that did not know they were all doomed.

    Just none of them wanted to be the one to pick up the rock.
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2021-03-30 at 02:04 PM.

  14. #394
    Bloodsail Admiral tommyhil622's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Lets hope some day you do not need to make that choice, but for now it is obvious you have never had to make that choice.
    You will some day, be it your mother or father on their death bed, unable to speak, move, emote, you will need to decide to pull the plug, or leave them there a vegetable.

    Then, are you a bloodthirsty murderer?
    Unfortunately you're making a lot of assumptions so I won't get into the personal territory.

    Again bringing it back to Arthas. He had no right to decide the outcome of an entire city. He didn't even have the authority either. He acted without mercy and without a single thought of what his actions would do. He decided in a moment the lives of an entire city on a whim. He was wrong. There's no real discussion here to be made. There's no justification on his actions.

  15. #395
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    Unfortunately you're making a lot of assumptions so I won't get into the personal territory.

    Again bringing it back to Arthas. He had no right to decided the outcome of an entire city. He didn't have the authority either. He acted without mercy and without a single thought of what his actions would do. He decided in a moment the lives of an entire city on a whim. He was wrong. There's no real discussion here to be made. There's no justification on his actions.
    He did have the right.
    He did have the authority
    He acted with the upmost mercy, he gave them a quick a painless death instead of one of suffering and torture.
    he did not decide on a moment, on a whim, he was thinking of possabilities the entire time on his way to the city, he knew that it was there, he just hoped he would make it in time to stop them, or atleast save some, but when he arrived he realized it was far too late.
    He was not wrong, he was right, if he did not do that, all the people he gave a quick death, would have died anyways, but a slow and painful one.

    You are wrong
    get the fuck over it.


    When you arrive to that deer in the road, you do not let it sit there broken and dying for hours while you try to be the "better man" and think of maybe you could find a emergency vet, but they are closed this late and its a couple miles away, you take the rock and you put it out of its misery.

    be a fucking man, or a fucking woman, be a human, and when you see suffering that will not end, you stop it whatever way you can.

    There is countless ways to end misery, to end suffering, but when someone is doomed to death, with no other solution, the choice is to end it.


    When a persons life is going to be sufferage it is up to them to decide.
    but when this sufferage is not only going to be them, but also others, then it is for others to decide.
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2021-03-30 at 02:13 PM.

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    He did have the right.
    He did have the authority
    He acted with the upmost mercy, he gave them a quick a painless death instead of one of suffering and torture.
    No, he didn't. To any of those. He neither had the right which at most his father would, and even that is questionable, nor the authority, since he is at that point merely a Paladin and not the highest ranking around, nor did he grant a quick and painless death or act with mercy. Quite the opposite, he did it entirely out of self-assured pride and lacked the means of providing painless death.

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    he did not decide on a moment, on a whim, he was thinking of possabilities the entire time on his way to the city, he knew that it was there, he just hoped he would make it in time to stop them, or atleast save some, but when he arrived he realized it was far too late.
    That he thought about possibilities does not change that he acted on a whim. He did not have sufficient information to "realize it was to late". He went straight from "the grain is here" to "i must kill everybody".

    He was wrong and he did not grant people a quick painless death. He did not have the ability to grant people a quick, painless death in the first place.

    Get over yourself. Arthas was not in a position to make this decision for people who were, at that point, still in possession of their faculties, nor did he make any actual plans for the possibility of arriving to late to prevent the tragedy.

  17. #397
    Stood in the Fire Karreck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    He did have the right.
    He did have the authority
    He did not have the right to kill innocent people, regardless of circumstances. Being a Prince does not give the right to decide who lives and who dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    He acted with the upmost mercy, he gave them a quick a painless death instead of one of suffering and torture.
    Getting smacked by a warhammer is not quick and painless. Same with being stabbed multiple times. He was not cleanly executing people, he was slaughtering them, most of whom were likely terrified and afraid of the soldiers coming to kill them.

    His men also set fires to burn down houses with people trapped inside. Being burned alive is hardly quick or painless.

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    When you arrive to that deer in the road, you do not let it sit there broken and dying for hours while you try to be the "better man" and think of maybe you could find a emergency vet, but they are closed this late and its a couple miles away, you take the rock and you put it out of its misery.
    If you found a dying man on the side of the road and crushed his head with a rock, you would be charged with murder. Why? Mercy killing is still murder in the eyes of law.
    Animals =/= Man

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    be a fucking man, or a fucking woman, be a human, and when you see suffering that will not end, you stop it whatever way you can.
    Many citizens of Stratholme that Arthas and his men murdered were showing no signs of suffering or illness.

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    There is countless ways to end misery, to end suffering, but when someone is doomed to death, with no other solution, the choice is to end it.
    It is not for others to make that choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    When a persons life is going to be sufferage it is up to them to decide.
    but when this sufferage is not only going to be them, but also others, then it is for others to decide.
    Wrong. Absolutely wrong. The individual person decides from themselves if their suffering is too much, not others. Only if the person is incapacitated are others allowed to make that decision, and that was not the case in Stratholme.

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    You are wrong
    get the fuck over it.
    Take your own advice.
    Princesses can kill knights to rescue dragons.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by Karreck View Post
    If you found a dying man on the side of the road and crushed his head with a rock, you would be charged with murder. Why? Mercy killing is still murder in the eyes of law.
    Animals =/= Man
    Even whether killing/letting die somebody who is suffering from a debilitating untreatable condition and has openly stated they want to die is morally or legally acceptable is still a very controversial question.

    When you're just finding them and do not have the proper knowledge what their actual situation is? Not a chance.

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by Ohvul View Post
    For purging stratholme... I mean whats the better option than if he hadn't done such, what alternate should've happened??? / was a more rational / moral decision
    Arthas was right Uthur was a cunt and the reason for the first Lich King.

  20. #400
    Bloodsail Admiral tommyhil622's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    He did have the right.
    He did have the authority
    He acted with the upmost mercy, he gave them a quick a painless death instead of one of suffering and torture.
    he did not decide on a moment, on a whim, he was thinking of possabilities the entire time on his way to the city, he knew that it was there, he just hoped he would make it in time to stop them, or atleast save some, but when he arrived he realized it was far too late.
    He was not wrong, he was right, if he did not do that, all the people he gave a quick death, would have died anyways, but a slow and painful one.

    You are wrong
    get the fuck over it.


    When you arrive to that deer in the road, you do not let it sit there broken and dying for hours while you try to be the "better man" and think of maybe you could find a emergency vet, but they are closed this late and its a couple miles away, you take the rock and you put it out of its misery.

    be a fucking man, or a fucking woman, be a human, and when you see suffering that will not end, you stop it whatever way you can.

    There is countless ways to end misery, to end suffering, but when someone is doomed to death, with no other solution, the choice is to end it.


    When a persons life is going to be sufferage it is up to them to decide.
    but when this sufferage is not only going to be them, but also others, then it is for others to decide.
    Not sure why you keep comparing humans to animals, you have a distorted view on this which is the at the very center why this entire post is completely wrong. Also makes sense why you think Arthas did the right thing. For some reason you think animals and humans are the same which is an entirely different problem that will make you unable to understand the value of human life and consent.

    He did not have the authority. An action like that would need to have the consent from the King of Lorderon (he was not the King of lorderon). And the King would never grant him the authority to wantonly kill people.

    He did not know with certainty that the only recourse was to kill them. His men burned buildings with people alive in it. He did not know that every citizen ate from the contaminated food. He did not know who actually was contaminated. He didn't know how long he had before they converted. He ignored every sane person telling him not to do what he was about to do and did it anyway.

    Once again you keep brining up "mercy killing", you cannot kill a human being like you kill an animal. No human has the right to decide the fate of another regardless of what twisted logic that human uses to justify. That's the logic of a murderer or a serial killer. One who thinks they have the authority to take life because they think it's "mercy".

    Not sure what else to say on the matter other than you have to realize the distinction of human life from animals.
    Last edited by tommyhil622; 2021-04-01 at 12:29 AM.

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