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  1. #121
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    That's a pretty integral piece of the puzzle to be missing. A necromancer active in Stratholme (as they were led to believe by Kel'Thuzad) is a manageable situation had Arthas put more effort into persuading Uther and Jaina, come up with an actual plan of action, and at least put effort into implementing this plan--once Mal'Ganis showed himself and everyone involved realized shit was way bigger than anticipated, I doubt Uther or Jaina would have had many objections to working with Arthas on the purge (because again, once a demon enters the equation and he's transforming civilians on the fly, things are pretty well FUBAR).

    Like many other times in Warcraft history, poor communication causes a bad situation to spiral wildly out of control.
    While ya enter communication would have made things better it’s also perfectly understandable that arthas wouldn’t be capable of it after going through days of horror and stress.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    "left bleeding out"
    Except they literally say "Strike to make it painless"

    but hey create your own fucking head cannon, whatever you want.
    Oh, they said to do it a certain way so it applied to every single person that was killed in their rushed massacre of tens of thousands of people. Riiiiiiight. "Make it quick and painless" is a nice movie trope to sterilize death. Unless you can find me the lore passage that then says "and so they went into the city and painlessly dispatched with a single blow every man, woman, and child as they slept with not a single one waking up or feeling a thing" it's just a line to make their actions more palatable at the time. There's no point in having a discussion about the morality of the scenario if you're going to essentially equate murdering civilians with stepping on ants. Why should I care about people becoming undead if I don't care about them being stabbed, slashed, and bludgeoned with weapons?

  3. #123
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Oh, they said to do it a certain way so it applied to every single person that was killed in their rushed massacre of tens of thousands of people. Riiiiiiight. "Make it quick and painless" is a nice movie trope to sterilize death. Unless you can find me the lore passage that then says "and so they went into the city and painlessly dispatched with a single blow every man, woman, and child as they slept with not a single one waking up or feeling a thing" it's just a line to make their actions more palatable at the time. There's no point in having a discussion about the morality of the scenario if you're going to essentially equate murdering civilians with stepping on ants.
    Literally when they fucking enter "Least we can do is give them a quick painless death"

    holy fuck dude.
    and yes literally in the lore that is what they did, so get ahold of your ego mate, its bending reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
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  4. #124
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    They had a platoon of men with them didn't they? They were also in a town which has plenty of space and houses that you could use to segregate people easily. My memory is getting fuzzy on the details
    Strath was a city of thousands (likely tens with later retcons) with people turning all over it at the time, there would be no way to cover all of it or even most of the city and split the population up to be manageable unless they had like the whole army there.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Says the guy who is equating a real life disease in a modern, technological world with instant communication across the globe, a real life disease that, at worst, kills people.... to a fictitious curse in a fictitious world where instant communication across the globe is not possible, a fictitious disease that had no cure, no way of detecting and condemns you into mindless undeath with an unquenchable desire to kill the living.
    Id go as far to make the real life comparisons as
    Culling of strat : i am legend beginning : covid

    All three have their own take on how to deal with a spreading disease; the possibility of spread as the disease becomes worse (zombies are literally the worst outcome to a disease i can imagine) and given how i am legend plays out originating in a city, im sure if such were in the real world NYC would've been bombed before people started arguing for the possibility of technology curing people.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Literally when they fucking enter "Least we can do is give them a quick painless death"

    holy fuck dude.
    and yes literally in the lore that is what they did, so get ahold of your ego mate, its bending reality.
    I don't think you know what most of those words mean otherwise you'd have recognized the irony before hitting "post".

    Anyway, since it seems you're incapable of having a reasonable discussion I guess we can just say that in a makebelieve world where civilian casualties don't really matter if you say "quick painless death", then I can't say I'm at all bothered by letting them turn into undead ghouls either. Their pain is inconsequential one way or the other since they're nothing but a literary device to move main characters along a set story path.

    It's not bending reality because we're not talking about reality. It's a fabricated scenario to make an atrocity seem rational. Arthas wasn't in the right because he wasn't written to be the rational good guy. There is no scenario where he decides to save some of the city and the rest turn and ravage the countryside because that's not what was written. No matter how reasonable he tries to make it sound, we're not supposed to support Arthas in his massacre of civilians.

    The whole point of the discussion (which you can't seem to wrap your head around) was to explore whether a moral argument could be made, which is impossible to make if you want to adhere to the idea that civilian lives don't matter if you kill them with one hit.

  7. #127
    If the ends justify the means, then we are all doomed. That was the problem. The endgame would have been the killing of them all for turning into the undead. By purging the city, he ensured there would be no (living) survivors, nobody could 'resist' the plague somehow, no 'miracles' could happen. He sealed their fates and took away whatever time they may have had left.

    In no scenario would that have been okay.

  8. #128
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    The whole point of the discussion (which you can't seem to wrap your head around) was to explore whether a moral argument could be made, which is impossible to make if you want to adhere to the idea that civilian lives don't matter if you kill them with one hit.
    Except they never said that? The poster is just saying that Arthas and the others who followed him wanted to make this as painless as possible and not prolong their suffering. The poster never said they don't think civilians' lives matter or anything.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except they never said that? The poster is just saying that Arthas and the others who followed him wanted to make this as painless as possible and not prolong their suffering. The poster never said they don't think civilians' lives matter or anything.
    That poster has also been trying to rationalize it by turning it into an equation. No, they don't think civilian lives have much weight if they're killed under the guise of "quick and painless". It's meant to a be a textbook example of the best intentions being used to excuse the unforgivable. As soon as you start weighing lives and make unilateral decisions for how people SHOULD die, you've stopped thinking of them as people.

    If you want to go by how it's presented in lore, it was the wrong move. Uther and Jaina made the right call, something backed up by other characters who were afforded more hindsight than those who were there.

    If you want to try and frame it in a more real world sense as other posters have then it was still the wrong move, and would have been EVEN MORE horrible than the simplified way it's presented in the story.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2021-03-24 at 05:42 PM.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Ohvul View Post
    For purging stratholme... I mean whats the better option than if he hadn't done such, what alternate should've happened??? / was a more rational / moral decision
    From our perspective not. he was not wrong. we saw the whole picture. The scourge etc. Yes they could have checked who was infected. But the change for a lot of them to be scourge to be was high. And if arthas could have fought them off. It would have been 2 late. Its like cutting of some good parts of your body to stop the gangreen from taking your whole body part.
    Even in both the dungeon and wc3 its shown people are allready sick or becoming undead.

    From their point of view ( uther etc). He could have waited and cured them. But they did not know how bad it could get.


    My guess is this would have happend:
    - if they waited: the whole city would have turned undead. and seeing as it was a large city. It would have broken out and turned into a big wave of undead.
    - if they try to heal and check who was sick: people would have gone crazy in a panic. And the above would still happen.
    It was a lose/lose situation every way you cut it.

    But why was he wrong according to some players... simple horde need someone to blame in the alliance to be bad too.

  11. #131
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    That poster has also been trying to rationalize it by turning it into an equation. No, they don't think civilian lives have much weight if they're killed under the guise of "quick and painless".

    If you want to go by how it's presented in lore, it was the wrong move. Uther and Jaina made the right call, something backed up by other characters who were afforded more hindsight than those who were there.

    If you want to try and frame it in a more real world sense as other posters have then it was still the wrong move, and would have been EVEN MORE horrible than the simplified way it's presented in the story.
    if the options are quick and painless, or extremly long, painful torture, then of fucking course quick and painless is way better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  12. #132
    He wasn't wrong. That doesn't mean he was right though. To quote paladins from DnD, you don't take the lesser evil (Happens in the Witcher too), so he wasn't really justified in killing so many people, from a moral standpoint even if in heartless calculations, it was the sensible thing to do.

    It's an interesting dilemma because he wasn't wrong... but he was also very wrong.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    if the options are quick and painless, or extremly long, painful torture, then of fucking course quick and painless is way better.
    I added a line right before you quoted me:

    It's meant to a be a textbook example of the best intentions being used to excuse the unforgivable. As soon as you start weighing lives and make unilateral decisions for how people SHOULD die, you've stopped thinking of them as people.

    It's an entirely selfish action to make that decision for someone else. But it makes for a great anti-villain motivation. They believe they're right, that there is no other way, and so they abuse their power and impose their will on their victims.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    ok thread over
    This was apparently not the case - it would seem mass genocide is a hot button issue for the wow community.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  15. #135
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    I added a line right before you quoted me:

    It's meant to a be a textbook example of the best intentions being used to excuse the unforgivable. As soon as you start weighing lives and make unilateral decisions for how people SHOULD die, you've stopped thinking of them as people.

    It's an entirely selfish action to make that decision for someone else. But it makes for a great anti-villain motivation. They believe they're right, that there is no other way, and so they abuse their power and impose their will on their victims.
    thinking of them no longer as people would be not caring how they die, letting them suffer.

    thinking something as an object would be to let it suffer
    having compassion for something is putting something out of its misery.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  16. #136
    He should have locked the gates and let the grain-eating degenerates die off.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    thinking of them no longer as people would be not caring how they die, letting them suffer.

    thinking something as an object would be to let it suffer
    having compassion for something is putting something out of its misery.
    The point is you're projecting what you want onto other people who can make decisions for themselves which might not match your own. If you're the one acting on those decisions, as Arthas was, then you're robbing other people of their agency (and their lives).

  18. #138
    Honorary PvM "Mod" Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    No, a real life analogy would be killing people at a superspreader event because you couldn't know if they had it and might spread it.

    You people are bad at this.
    Nah. An analogy doesn't have to be on par. My analogy was referring to how you can't know someone ate the tainted grain, so you [insert action here]. Likewise, with a real-life pandemic in our world, we did the same: we locked down and implemented mask requirements, regardless of if you have or don't have it. Since covid doesn't turn you into the rabid undead, it's comparatively tame.

    In the case of Stratholme, as I said more than once through the thread, Arthas had no choice but to slaughter the city. Those that were infected weren't just going to die, they were going to rise up and join the enemy. Every single person who died would be a potential enemy combatant they'd have to fight later, only much stronger than your average human, elf, gnome, or dwarf. Although he didn't know Mal'Ganis was going to show up to claim them, he knew that he had no way to fight this otherwise. There was no time for masks or for quarantines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    That poster has also been trying to rationalize it by turning it into an equation. No, they don't think civilian lives have much weight if they're killed under the guise of "quick and painless". It's meant to a be a textbook example of the best intentions being used to excuse the unforgivable. As soon as you start weighing lives and make unilateral decisions for how people SHOULD die, you've stopped thinking of them as people.

    If you want to go by how it's presented in lore, it was the wrong move. Uther and Jaina made the right call, something backed up by other characters who were afforded more hindsight than those who were there.

    If you want to try and frame it in a more real world sense as other posters have then it was still the wrong move, and would have been EVEN MORE horrible than the simplified way it's presented in the story.
    This is also similar to the Train Trolley question. To me, the right answer is the one that leads to the least suffering. Do you kill your friend (or the one person, depends on the version), or do you kill the five people on the other track? You kill your friend to save the five. Arthas was trying to kill the one (Stratholme) to save the five (everywhere else).

    Quote Originally Posted by intenz View Post
    He should have locked the gates and let the grain-eating degenerates die off.
    Would they die? They were undead as a result, and the scourge has shown a tendency not to just die off.

  19. #139
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Ya know maybe that's where my disconnect is coming from. I am envisioning it from the game's POV where we see dozens of people, not thousands, but you make a good point.
    Ya the games being so down scaled often causes problems like that, we see like 4 building when in reality those are suppose to be a full functioning town.

  20. #140
    Mechagnome Indigenously Abled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post

    there is no real life analogy because zombies are not fucking real
    This is the only real answer here.
    Thanks for the ad-hominem; it supports your inability to support your argument.

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