Undead Paladin?

[Traveler Voltin]

While Leonid Barthalomew doesn't have any listed abilities I can find anywhere, when speaking to him he mentions believing he is a vessel to smite undead. Granted, Korfax is another example of a Warrior that embodies the will of the Crusade, but Korfax wears noted Warrior armor and uses Warrior abilities, while Leonid Barthalomew is notably wearing paladin-themed attire and his skillset isn't as well documented.

While Light can be used to harm Undead, it can also be used to harm Humanoids. For example, Turalyon used it to interrogate an Orc, Gaz Soulripper, a Warlock, causing him excruciating pain. The Light can also be used to heal the Undead, as Ashra used it to heal the Forsaken Felgrim (though it was painful).

Forsaken that fight on the frontlines (tanks, like Warriors and DKs) healed by their Paladin and Priest allies are noted to "suffer nobly" in CDev questions. So while the pain 'can' be 'excruciating', this seems to be relative in terms of necessity and what maybe an individual is capable of shrugging off. Undead like Sir Zeliek are as well noted in CDev that with enough self-hatred, Light wielding in this manner for themselves can be enough of a motivator. We know Forsaken do often hate themselves enough to the point where they will even kill themselves to grant themselves true death, and that for some Forsaken pain is their only outlet when much of their physical reception to pain in Undeath has been dulled. Suicidal tendencies and masochism seems to be something Forsaken can sometimes gravitate towards to as part of their "darker emotions" they develop when granted Undeath.

how strange. Leonids page used to show his abilities and they were warrior ones.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Leonid_Barthalomew

Sir zeliek is also noted for being an exception not the rule.

it seems the light ripping at the magic bind the soul to the body was retcon.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Undead

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Light

[Razion]

how strange. Leonids page used to show his abilities and they were warrior ones.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Leonid_Barthalomew

Sir zeliek is also noted for being an exception not the rule.

it seems the light ripping at the magic bind the soul to the body was retcon.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Undead

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Light

Also fun, while looking through Leonid I circled myself around and found another Undead Paladin: Mor'Ladim - he's a Scourge, risen from a Knight (formerly Morgan Ladimore, who fought alongside Uther, another now Undead Paladin), that has the ability Holy Shock and famously part of the acquisition of the sword Archeus as part of the Raven Hill questline as one of the more notably tougher mobs in the zone (now grants Refurbished Archeus). Mor'Ladim even as Scourge wields a great-sword that glows with yellow light.

[MOEEEE]

Meeeeeeeeeh!

[arkanon]

The REAL question is, assuming ghosts and zombies existed, could one living person produce both a ghost, AND a zombie after death? Asking the real questions here guys.

[Piamonte]

The REAL question is, assuming ghosts and zombies existed, could one living person produce both a ghost, AND a zombie after death? Asking the real questions here guys.

I think this is pretty common in wow. A necromancer can kill you, your ghost can go to the Shadowlands and then the necromancer can animate your soulless body.

[Razion]

The REAL question is, assuming ghosts and zombies existed, could one living person produce both a ghost, AND a zombie after death? Asking the real questions here guys.

There have both been quests where Scourge zombies can be slain and the souls are released (part of the original Feralheart questline involved capturing such ghosts if I remember right), and also quests where Scourge ghouls can be wholesale out of cauldrons with misc reagents (found in Northrend, you can contaminate this process as part of a quest).

Examples like Forsaken, Sylvanas, as well as empowered DKs all have souls it seems to remember trauma, and players specifically have quests referencing souls and agents like Sylvanas and DKs as part of the process require the souls to be shoved back in.

I think a general rule of thumb is, the weaker the undead, the less a soul is required - technically it's possible in some examples like the cauldron making, bit this results in less powerful undead. As we know with SL, souls come with Anima - a powersource that can be manipulated, which comes from memory & experiences of the soul.

The strength of an Undead could therefore be proportional to the Anima (experience, memories) it can provide.

[Dellis0991]

I would roll a forsaken so fucking quick if they could.

[morsdood]

Horde needs another Paladin race and Forsaken are the only fitting race left in the current line-up so yea, its a no-brainer

All the arguments against it are very hollow tbh

[Traveler Voltin]

Also fun, while looking through Leonid I circled myself around and found another Undead Paladin: Mor'Ladim - he's a Scourge, risen from a Knight (formerly Morgan Ladimore, who fought alongside Uther, another now Undead Paladin), that has the ability Holy Shock and famously part of the acquisition of the sword Archeus as part of the Raven Hill questline as one of the more notably tougher mobs in the zone (now grants Refurbished Archeus). Mor'Ladim even as Scourge wields a great-sword that glows with yellow light.

scourge were mind controlled. so using them as pro anything is pointless.

[Darththeo]

Here's 19:
- Sir Zeliek is risen Scourge that maintains faith in the Light through dialogue as a prominent recurring raid boss in Vanilla and Wrath.
- Reanimated Crusader and Reanimated Captains are risen Scourge that wield the Light found in Scourgeholme, Northrend that throw holy Avenger's Shields.
- Captain Brandon is a human paladin that can fall and be raised if not saved in original ICC that can use Crusader Strike, Divine Shield, Hammer of Betrayal, and Judgment of Command.
- Darkfallen Blood Knight is a member of The San'layn in Icecrown Citadel that appears before the Blood Price encounter wearing Paladin tier.
- Scarlet Warder is a Forsaken Scarlet Crusade member found in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms that uses Crusader Strike and Holy Light.
- Scarlet Praetorian is a Forsaken Scarlet Crusade member found in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms that uses Exorcism and Holy Strike.
- Scarlet Commander Marjhan is a Forsaken Scarlet Crusade member found in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms that uses Divine Storm, Retribution Aura, and Hammer of Wrath.
- Crusader Lord Valdemar is a Forsaken Scarlet Crusade member found in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms who wields Devotion Aura, HoJ, Crusader Strike.

And for 20, if you count Leonid Barthalowmew the Revered, a Forsaken member of the Argent Dawn who believes he is a vessel to smite the undead, who still reveres the Light.

We can ignore all the ghosts. Ghosts are not the same as the Forsaken.

Also, the Risen Scarlet Crusade members are NOT "Forsaken" ... they are undead. Just a minor technicality. All of those Scarlet Crusade members were raised and controlled, they were really of their own mind. They were controlled. Any of them "controlled" isn't the same as what a Forsaken is. (I know in game they share "race" with Forsaken, but we are talking Lore).

And Darkfallen Blood Knight merely wear Paladin Tier 10 ... I can have my warrior and death knights wear that. And none of their abilities relate to the Light in the first place. So, that should never even been listed. Please remember this isn't "Can a Paladin be raised into Undeath?" that is objectively yes ... could playable undead be Paladins is the discussion.

So, your list of 20, becomes 3 at best. Zellik is unquestionable, even though he was controlled, his use of the Light was clearly defined as his own doing this does not apply the rest as it has not been confirmed to be true. Brandon can be argued as "non-canon" as he merely COULD die, hasn't been confirmed if he did and was raised. And Barthalowmew isn't even confirmed to have been a paladin, just someone who believes in the Light.

So, yeah, there isn't as much as you think are valid examples. Could they make it happen, absolutely.

[Razion]

scourge were mind controlled. so using them as pro anything is pointless.

Scourge have broken free with the breaking of the Lich King before, and recently Bolvar lost the Helm to be shattered by Sylvanas.

- - - Updated - - -

We can ignore all the ghosts. Ghosts are not the same as the Forsaken.

I think Ghosts could be a playable Forsaken variant skin, but beyond this there's still many non-ghost Undead examples in this list.

[Darththeo]

I think Ghosts could be a playable Forsaken variant skin, but beyond this there's still many non-ghost Undead examples in this list.

Yes, outside of Zellik. All the others can be discounted for various reasons.

The Risen Scarlet Crusaders, Reanimated Crusaders and Captains are all controlled by a power beyond themselves. We do not know if they are using the light under their own powers or because the controller is forcing them to use it. Zellik has been confirms to use the Light because of his faith, you cannot apply that to others. You can assume it, but it is not confirmed. And the fact Zellik is controlled may have some impact on his ability as well.

Brandon could be "non-canon" as he doesn't always die.

Darkfallen Blood Knights lack any clear "paladin" powers. They may have been paladins in life, but in undeath, it does not appear to be the case. This is honestly the weakest of the list and I would have left it off.

And finally, Barthalowmew has never been confirmed to be a paladin either in life or undeath. All we know is that he is a follower of the Light which doesn't require a person to be a Paladin to qualify as many non priests and paladins believe in the light.

Could they make it happen? Absolutely. They can bend and rewrite lore as they see fit as it is their creation. But, there are no strong examples of an uncontrolled undead who is a Paladin that is 100% confirmed. I have a feeling they will do it given everything that happened in Legion and BfA ... but that is just a feeling, and I personally would not want it.

[Lodreh]

Here's 19:
- Sir Zeliek is risen Scourge that maintains faith in the Light through dialogue as a prominent recurring raid boss in Vanilla and Wrath.
- Reanimated Exarches are Draenei ghosts found in Terokar Forest, Outland with Devotion Aura.
- Disembodied Exarches are Draenei ghosts found in Netherstorm, Outland with Devotion Aura.
- Disembodied Protectors are Draenei ghosts found in Netherstorm, Outland with Crusader Strike.
- Lady Keira Berrybruck is a holy paladin human ghost found in Karazhan as a council-style raid boss that uses Holy Light and Greater Blessing of Might.
- Baron Rafe Dreuger is a ret paladin human ghost found in Karazhan as a council-style raid boss that uses Hammer of Justice and Judgment of Command.
- Reanimated Crusader and Reanimated Captains are risen Scourge that wield the Light found in Scourgeholme, Northrend that throw holy Avenger's Shields.
- Captain Brandon is a human paladin that can fall and be raised if not saved in original ICC that can use Crusader Strike, Divine Shield, Hammer of Betrayal, and Judgment of Command.
- Darkfallen Blood Knight is a member of The San'layn in Icecrown Citadel that appears before the Blood Price encounter wearing Paladin tier.
- Davil Lightfire is a human ghost bound to the events of Darrowshire, appears in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms and uses Devotion Aura, HoJ, and Holy Strike.
- Silver Hand Disciple is a human ghost bound to the events of Darrowshire, appears in Eatern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms and uses Crusader Strike and Holy Light.
- Scarlet Warder is a Forsaken Scarlet Crusade member found in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms that uses Crusader Strike and Holy Light.
- Scarlet Praetorian is a Forsaken Scarlet Crusade member found in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms that uses Exorcism and Holy Strike.
- Scarlet Commander Marjhan is a Forsaken Scarlet Crusade member found in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms that uses Divine Storm, Retribution Aura, and Hammer of Wrath.
- Crusader Lord Valdemar is a Forsaken Scarlet Crusade member found in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms who wields Devotion Aura, HoJ, Crusader Strike.
- Malefic Defender is a Draenei ghost found in the dungeon Auchindoun, WoD that uses Crusader Strike.
- Halahk the Deathbringer is a human ghost found during an instanced version of ICC that uses Avenging Wrath, Holy Light, and Holy Shock.
- Fanatic Crusader is a human ghost objective of Party Crashers found in The Ember Court, Shadowlands.
- Abused Souls are anima ghosts in Revendreth and The Ember Court that can use Crusader Strike.

And for 20, if you count Leonid Barthalowmew the Revered, a Forsaken member of the Argent Dawn who believes he is a vessel to smite the undead, who still reveres the Light.

Excellent list. Not sure disembodied ghost count as Forsaken but the point is still valid.

[Razion]

Yes, outside of Zellik. All the others can be discounted for various reasons.

The Risen Scarlet Crusaders, Reanimated Crusaders and Captains are all controlled by a power beyond themselves. We do not know if they are using the light under their own powers or because the controller is forcing them to use it. Zellik has been confirms to use the Light because of his faith, you cannot apply that to others. You can assume it, but it is not confirmed. And the fact Zellik is controlled may have some impact on his ability as well.

Brandon could be "non-canon" as he doesn't always die.

Darkfallen Blood Knights lack any clear "paladin" powers. They may have been paladins in life, but in undeath, it does not appear to be the case. This is honestly the weakest of the list and I would have left it off.

And finally, Barthalowmew has never been confirmed to be a paladin either in life or undeath. All we know is that he is a follower of the Light which doesn't require a person to be a Paladin to qualify as many non priests and paladins believe in the light.

Could they make it happen? Absolutely. They can bend and rewrite lore as they see fit as it is their creation. But, there are no strong examples of an uncontrolled undead who is a Paladin that is 100% confirmed. I have a feeling they will do it given everything that happened in Legion and BfA ... but that is just a feeling, and I personally would not want it.

The point of establishing these examples is to disprove the notion is impossible, that Undead and Light supposedly don't mix. Friendly NPCs can be introduced. Scourge have broken from the Lich King before, and a breaking of the Helm occured recently.

[Recovery]

She will lead us down the path to Forsaken Paladins...


...but I won't say her name since it whips this forum up into a frenzy, much like saying Slyvanus.

Calia, is it Calia? ITs gotta be Calia.

[Darththeo]

The point of establishing these examples is to disprove the notion is impossible, that Undead and Light supposedly don't mix. Friendly NPCs can be introduced. Scourge have broken from the Lich King before, and a breaking of the Helm occured recently.

People arguing it is "impossible" are factually wrong. People arguing it is "rare" or "not lore friendly" to be playable are making a valid argument.

I feel they are setting up playable Paladins for the Forsaken with what they have done in Legion and into BfA, so I feel that it isn't going to be a shock like Tauren Paladins were for Cataclysm. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Paladin expanded to more races in the expansion after shadowlands (Night Elf, Void Elf, Forsaken, and Kul Tiran are my guesses, maybe even Mag'har Orc.)

[Razion]

Excellent list. Not sure disembodied ghost count as Forsaken but the point is still valid.

Banker in Undercity would be a good example of a friendly Forsaken ghost.

- - - Updated - - -

People arguing it is "impossible" are factually wrong. People arguing it is "rare" or "not lore friendly" to be playable are making a valid argument.

I feel they are setting up playable Paladins for the Forsaken with what they have done in Legion and into BfA, so I feel that it isn't going to be a shock like Tauren Paladins were for Cataclysm. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Paladin expanded to more races in the expansion after shadowlands (Night Elf, Void Elf, Forsaken, and Kul Tiran are my guesses, maybe even Mag'har Orc.)

We've had examples of multiple Undead of some variety be Paladins in nearly every expansion. Every expansion felt like the right time for them to be playable. Cata, Legion, SL. But there's still a lot of resistance to the idea. It's understandable because the forces are so naturally opposed, but after so long all the examples popping up so consistently... I guess it's a little frustrating.

[Darththeo]

We've had examples of multiple Undead of some variety be Paladins in nearly every expansion. Every expansion felt like the right time for them to be playable. Cata, Legion, SL. But there's still a lot of resistance to the idea. It's understandable because the forces are so naturally opposed, but after so long all the examples popping up so consistently... I guess it's a little frustrating.

Just keep in mind that ghosts play by different rules than Forsaken ... some become lobster like things, others maintain their appearance, others changed in other ways. The Forsaken that are all playable all fall under the same structure and are more uniform.

And many of the "Paladin" undead are controlled and outside of Zellik and we have no idea if their use of Paladin abilities is their own volition or if it is forced on them by their controller. And also keep in mind that NPCs do not play by player rules (a common feature in RPGs). You have Thrall who is a Shaman in plate mail, Anduin who was a priest in plate, etc ... NPCs can break rules that PCs cannot. So, the NPC argument for me personally doesn't hold much weight.

[Razion]

Just keep in mind that ghosts play by different rules than Forsaken ... some become lobster like things, others maintain their appearance, others changed in other ways. The Forsaken that are all playable all fall under the same structure and are more uniform.

And many of the "Paladin" undead are controlled and outside of Zellik and we have no idea if their use of Paladin abilities is their own volition or if it is forced on them by their controller. And also keep in mind that NPCs do not play by player rules (a common feature in RPGs). You have Thrall who is a Shaman in plate mail, Anduin who was a priest in plate, etc ... NPCs can break rules that PCs cannot. So, the NPC argument for me personally doesn't hold much weight.

The Scarlet Crusade seems like the biggest hurdle here. While the Scalets in Stratholme and Northrend were under some level of control by Dreadlords, I'm not as sure to what degree - and especially the examples in Tyr's Hand that were given, for example, which I'm not sure even had a Dreadlord present. If anyone is aware of that line in question it'd help a lot.

And while it is unfortunate if a lot of the would-be viable Forsaken-build could be all under Dreadlord control, it would also mean that at present time they wouldn't be as we have gone in and shut down thise operations and expelled the controlling Dreadlords, so these Forsaken would be free now. The Scarlet Crusade is zealous enough I think they make good candidates for the type needed to endure the pain.

[Darththeo]

The Scarlet Crusade seems like the biggest hurdle here. While the Scalets in Stratholme and Northrend were under some level of control by Dreadlords, I'm not as sure to what degree - and especially the examples in Tyr's Hand that were given, for example, which I'm not sure even had a Dreadlord present. If anyone is aware of that line in question it'd help a lot.

And while it is unfortunate if a lot of the would-be viable Forsaken-build could be all under Dreadlord control, it would also mean that at present time they wouldn't be as we have gone in and shut down thise operations and expelled the controlling Dreadlords, so these Forsaken would be free now. The Scarlet Crusade is zealous enough I think they make good candidates for the type needed to endure the pain.

I agree. But, again, there is little info to why they are able to use the light. It would need to be expanded for a lot of people to accept it (see how people are STILL annoyed with Tauren Paladin despite explaining it is more Druidic magic that mimics Paladin powers in lore.)