Thread: Undead Paladin?

Page 11 of 12 FirstFirst ...
9
10
11
12
LastLast
  1. #201
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away
    Posts
    4,301
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Here's 19:
    - Sir Zeliek is risen Scourge that maintains faith in the Light through dialogue as a prominent recurring raid boss in Vanilla and Wrath.
    - Reanimated Crusader and Reanimated Captains are risen Scourge that wield the Light found in Scourgeholme, Northrend that throw holy Avenger's Shields.
    - Captain Brandon is a human paladin that can fall and be raised if not saved in original ICC that can use Crusader Strike, Divine Shield, Hammer of Betrayal, and Judgment of Command.
    - Darkfallen Blood Knight is a member of The San'layn in Icecrown Citadel that appears before the Blood Price encounter wearing Paladin tier.
    - Scarlet Warder is a Forsaken Scarlet Crusade member found in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms that uses Crusader Strike and Holy Light.
    - Scarlet Praetorian is a Forsaken Scarlet Crusade member found in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms that uses Exorcism and Holy Strike.
    - Scarlet Commander Marjhan is a Forsaken Scarlet Crusade member found in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms that uses Divine Storm, Retribution Aura, and Hammer of Wrath.
    - Crusader Lord Valdemar is a Forsaken Scarlet Crusade member found in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms who wields Devotion Aura, HoJ, Crusader Strike.

    And for 20, if you count Leonid Barthalowmew the Revered, a Forsaken member of the Argent Dawn who believes he is a vessel to smite the undead, who still reveres the Light.
    We can ignore all the ghosts. Ghosts are not the same as the Forsaken.

    Also, the Risen Scarlet Crusade members are NOT "Forsaken" ... they are undead. Just a minor technicality. All of those Scarlet Crusade members were raised and controlled, they were really of their own mind. They were controlled. Any of them "controlled" isn't the same as what a Forsaken is. (I know in game they share "race" with Forsaken, but we are talking Lore).

    And Darkfallen Blood Knight merely wear Paladin Tier 10 ... I can have my warrior and death knights wear that. And none of their abilities relate to the Light in the first place. So, that should never even been listed. Please remember this isn't "Can a Paladin be raised into Undeath?" that is objectively yes ... could playable undead be Paladins is the discussion.

    So, your list of 20, becomes 3 at best. Zellik is unquestionable, even though he was controlled, his use of the Light was clearly defined as his own doing this does not apply the rest as it has not been confirmed to be true. Brandon can be argued as "non-canon" as he merely COULD die, hasn't been confirmed if he did and was raised. And Barthalowmew isn't even confirmed to have been a paladin, just someone who believes in the Light.

    So, yeah, there isn't as much as you think are valid examples. Could they make it happen, absolutely.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2021-04-15 at 02:45 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by The Council View Post
    scourge were mind controlled. so using them as pro anything is pointless.
    Scourge have broken free with the breaking of the Lich King before, and recently Bolvar lost the Helm to be shattered by Sylvanas.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    We can ignore all the ghosts. Ghosts are not the same as the Forsaken.
    I think Ghosts could be a playable Forsaken variant skin, but beyond this there's still many non-ghost Undead examples in this list.

  3. #203
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away
    Posts
    4,301
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    I think Ghosts could be a playable Forsaken variant skin, but beyond this there's still many non-ghost Undead examples in this list.
    Yes, outside of Zellik. All the others can be discounted for various reasons.

    The Risen Scarlet Crusaders, Reanimated Crusaders and Captains are all controlled by a power beyond themselves. We do not know if they are using the light under their own powers or because the controller is forcing them to use it. Zellik has been confirms to use the Light because of his faith, you cannot apply that to others. You can assume it, but it is not confirmed. And the fact Zellik is controlled may have some impact on his ability as well.

    Brandon could be "non-canon" as he doesn't always die.

    Darkfallen Blood Knights lack any clear "paladin" powers. They may have been paladins in life, but in undeath, it does not appear to be the case. This is honestly the weakest of the list and I would have left it off.

    And finally, Barthalowmew has never been confirmed to be a paladin either in life or undeath. All we know is that he is a follower of the Light which doesn't require a person to be a Paladin to qualify as many non priests and paladins believe in the light.

    Could they make it happen? Absolutely. They can bend and rewrite lore as they see fit as it is their creation. But, there are no strong examples of an uncontrolled undead who is a Paladin that is 100% confirmed. I have a feeling they will do it given everything that happened in Legion and BfA ... but that is just a feeling, and I personally would not want it.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2021-04-15 at 03:02 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Here's 19:
    - Sir Zeliek is risen Scourge that maintains faith in the Light through dialogue as a prominent recurring raid boss in Vanilla and Wrath.
    - Reanimated Exarches are Draenei ghosts found in Terokar Forest, Outland with Devotion Aura.
    - Disembodied Exarches are Draenei ghosts found in Netherstorm, Outland with Devotion Aura.
    - Disembodied Protectors are Draenei ghosts found in Netherstorm, Outland with Crusader Strike.
    - Lady Keira Berrybruck is a holy paladin human ghost found in Karazhan as a council-style raid boss that uses Holy Light and Greater Blessing of Might.
    - Baron Rafe Dreuger is a ret paladin human ghost found in Karazhan as a council-style raid boss that uses Hammer of Justice and Judgment of Command.
    - Reanimated Crusader and Reanimated Captains are risen Scourge that wield the Light found in Scourgeholme, Northrend that throw holy Avenger's Shields.
    - Captain Brandon is a human paladin that can fall and be raised if not saved in original ICC that can use Crusader Strike, Divine Shield, Hammer of Betrayal, and Judgment of Command.
    - Darkfallen Blood Knight is a member of The San'layn in Icecrown Citadel that appears before the Blood Price encounter wearing Paladin tier.
    - Davil Lightfire is a human ghost bound to the events of Darrowshire, appears in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms and uses Devotion Aura, HoJ, and Holy Strike.
    - Silver Hand Disciple is a human ghost bound to the events of Darrowshire, appears in Eatern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms and uses Crusader Strike and Holy Light.
    - Scarlet Warder is a Forsaken Scarlet Crusade member found in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms that uses Crusader Strike and Holy Light.
    - Scarlet Praetorian is a Forsaken Scarlet Crusade member found in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms that uses Exorcism and Holy Strike.
    - Scarlet Commander Marjhan is a Forsaken Scarlet Crusade member found in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms that uses Divine Storm, Retribution Aura, and Hammer of Wrath.
    - Crusader Lord Valdemar is a Forsaken Scarlet Crusade member found in Eastern Plaguelands, Eastern Kingdoms who wields Devotion Aura, HoJ, Crusader Strike.
    - Malefic Defender is a Draenei ghost found in the dungeon Auchindoun, WoD that uses Crusader Strike.
    - Halahk the Deathbringer is a human ghost found during an instanced version of ICC that uses Avenging Wrath, Holy Light, and Holy Shock.
    - Fanatic Crusader is a human ghost objective of Party Crashers found in The Ember Court, Shadowlands.
    - Abused Souls are anima ghosts in Revendreth and The Ember Court that can use Crusader Strike.

    And for 20, if you count Leonid Barthalowmew the Revered, a Forsaken member of the Argent Dawn who believes he is a vessel to smite the undead, who still reveres the Light.
    Excellent list. Not sure disembodied ghost count as Forsaken but the point is still valid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No fucking way. The worst idea since democracy.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Yes, outside of Zellik. All the others can be discounted for various reasons.

    The Risen Scarlet Crusaders, Reanimated Crusaders and Captains are all controlled by a power beyond themselves. We do not know if they are using the light under their own powers or because the controller is forcing them to use it. Zellik has been confirms to use the Light because of his faith, you cannot apply that to others. You can assume it, but it is not confirmed. And the fact Zellik is controlled may have some impact on his ability as well.

    Brandon could be "non-canon" as he doesn't always die.

    Darkfallen Blood Knights lack any clear "paladin" powers. They may have been paladins in life, but in undeath, it does not appear to be the case. This is honestly the weakest of the list and I would have left it off.

    And finally, Barthalowmew has never been confirmed to be a paladin either in life or undeath. All we know is that he is a follower of the Light which doesn't require a person to be a Paladin to qualify as many non priests and paladins believe in the light.

    Could they make it happen? Absolutely. They can bend and rewrite lore as they see fit as it is their creation. But, there are no strong examples of an uncontrolled undead who is a Paladin that is 100% confirmed. I have a feeling they will do it given everything that happened in Legion and BfA ... but that is just a feeling, and I personally would not want it.
    The point of establishing these examples is to disprove the notion is impossible, that Undead and Light supposedly don't mix. Friendly NPCs can be introduced. Scourge have broken from the Lich King before, and a breaking of the Helm occured recently.

  6. #206
    Stood in the Fire Recovery's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    485
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    She will lead us down the path to Forsaken Paladins...


    ...but I won't say her name since it whips this forum up into a frenzy, much like saying Slyvanus.
    Calia, is it Calia? ITs gotta be Calia.

  7. #207
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away
    Posts
    4,301
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    The point of establishing these examples is to disprove the notion is impossible, that Undead and Light supposedly don't mix. Friendly NPCs can be introduced. Scourge have broken from the Lich King before, and a breaking of the Helm occured recently.
    People arguing it is "impossible" are factually wrong. People arguing it is "rare" or "not lore friendly" to be playable are making a valid argument.

    I feel they are setting up playable Paladins for the Forsaken with what they have done in Legion and into BfA, so I feel that it isn't going to be a shock like Tauren Paladins were for Cataclysm. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Paladin expanded to more races in the expansion after shadowlands (Night Elf, Void Elf, Forsaken, and Kul Tiran are my guesses, maybe even Mag'har Orc.)
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalium View Post
    Excellent list. Not sure disembodied ghost count as Forsaken but the point is still valid.
    Banker in Undercity would be a good example of a friendly Forsaken ghost.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    People arguing it is "impossible" are factually wrong. People arguing it is "rare" or "not lore friendly" to be playable are making a valid argument.

    I feel they are setting up playable Paladins for the Forsaken with what they have done in Legion and into BfA, so I feel that it isn't going to be a shock like Tauren Paladins were for Cataclysm. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Paladin expanded to more races in the expansion after shadowlands (Night Elf, Void Elf, Forsaken, and Kul Tiran are my guesses, maybe even Mag'har Orc.)
    We've had examples of multiple Undead of some variety be Paladins in nearly every expansion. Every expansion felt like the right time for them to be playable. Cata, Legion, SL. But there's still a lot of resistance to the idea. It's understandable because the forces are so naturally opposed, but after so long all the examples popping up so consistently... I guess it's a little frustrating.

  9. #209
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away
    Posts
    4,301
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    We've had examples of multiple Undead of some variety be Paladins in nearly every expansion. Every expansion felt like the right time for them to be playable. Cata, Legion, SL. But there's still a lot of resistance to the idea. It's understandable because the forces are so naturally opposed, but after so long all the examples popping up so consistently... I guess it's a little frustrating.
    Just keep in mind that ghosts play by different rules than Forsaken ... some become lobster like things, others maintain their appearance, others changed in other ways. The Forsaken that are all playable all fall under the same structure and are more uniform.

    And many of the "Paladin" undead are controlled and outside of Zellik and we have no idea if their use of Paladin abilities is their own volition or if it is forced on them by their controller. And also keep in mind that NPCs do not play by player rules (a common feature in RPGs). You have Thrall who is a Shaman in plate mail, Anduin who was a priest in plate, etc ... NPCs can break rules that PCs cannot. So, the NPC argument for me personally doesn't hold much weight.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Just keep in mind that ghosts play by different rules than Forsaken ... some become lobster like things, others maintain their appearance, others changed in other ways. The Forsaken that are all playable all fall under the same structure and are more uniform.

    And many of the "Paladin" undead are controlled and outside of Zellik and we have no idea if their use of Paladin abilities is their own volition or if it is forced on them by their controller. And also keep in mind that NPCs do not play by player rules (a common feature in RPGs). You have Thrall who is a Shaman in plate mail, Anduin who was a priest in plate, etc ... NPCs can break rules that PCs cannot. So, the NPC argument for me personally doesn't hold much weight.
    The Scarlet Crusade seems like the biggest hurdle here. While the Scalets in Stratholme and Northrend were under some level of control by Dreadlords, I'm not as sure to what degree - and especially the examples in Tyr's Hand that were given, for example, which I'm not sure even had a Dreadlord present. If anyone is aware of that line in question it'd help a lot.

    And while it is unfortunate if a lot of the would-be viable Forsaken-build could be all under Dreadlord control, it would also mean that at present time they wouldn't be as we have gone in and shut down thise operations and expelled the controlling Dreadlords, so these Forsaken would be free now. The Scarlet Crusade is zealous enough I think they make good candidates for the type needed to endure the pain.

  11. #211
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away
    Posts
    4,301
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    The Scarlet Crusade seems like the biggest hurdle here. While the Scalets in Stratholme and Northrend were under some level of control by Dreadlords, I'm not as sure to what degree - and especially the examples in Tyr's Hand that were given, for example, which I'm not sure even had a Dreadlord present. If anyone is aware of that line in question it'd help a lot.

    And while it is unfortunate if a lot of the would-be viable Forsaken-build could be all under Dreadlord control, it would also mean that at present time they wouldn't be as we have gone in and shut down thise operations and expelled the controlling Dreadlords, so these Forsaken would be free now. The Scarlet Crusade is zealous enough I think they make good candidates for the type needed to endure the pain.
    I agree. But, again, there is little info to why they are able to use the light. It would need to be expanded for a lot of people to accept it (see how people are STILL annoyed with Tauren Paladin despite explaining it is more Druidic magic that mimics Paladin powers in lore.)
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    I agree. But, again, there is little info to why they are able to use the light. It would need to be expanded for a lot of people to accept it (see how people are STILL annoyed with Tauren Paladin despite explaining it is more Druidic magic that mimics Paladin powers in lore.)
    I feel like it's a lot easier to understand with Forsaken because we know they believed in the Light and had Paladins in life, whereas the precedent for Tauren Paladins was more adjacent to another class so maybe not as obvious, though it was an original faith and take maybe because it was original and less generic it was harder to understand..?

    Since the Forsaken would revere and worship the Light in the same manner the Scarlets do as anti-undead zealots, maybe that's easier to understand because the early comparisons are there. A problem I see with that though is unless fallen Scarlets (like Voss was) recruited into the Forsaken due to humanity hunting them down it may be a hard sell for Forsaken to behave like their eternal foe the Scarlet Crusade - though they both already hate the Scourge - but if the Scarlet Crisade is absorbed, then those being Scarlets as outcasts in their own society seems more believable. Hard to imagine who could recruit the Scarlets -- Voss comes to mind as she was one and maybe could prove herself to those Scarlets and has to the Forsaken already.

    Might need to think about it more.

  13. #213
    Dreadlord Wolfrick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    ITALY, Tarren Mill
    Posts
    810
    I believe that Undead Paladins should never happen since in Lore the Light Hurts the undead...

    But...

    If you ask me,
    one of the best way to introduce Undead paladins would be with a system that changed all the "names and/or changed all the Colors of the spells of a class"

    Someone call this Class Skins or Class identity.

    So, we would have Undead Paladins with all the skills Paladins have but the class would be called something like Void Knight with the Label like this Void Knight (Paladin), This way there would not be Confusion what type of class it was at the base line.

    Same we could do with the Sunwalkers and Blood elf paladins... both of them are different kind of Paladins, so chaning their class label to Sunwalker (Paladin) and Blood Knight (Paladin) would be really cool an immersive.


    This change would also change the color or the spells.... not how the spell works or looks... but only the color... so that Blizzard did not have to do 100 hours of spell Redisign for each Class/race combo when it came to paladins.


    So, this would give us the Undead paladins... but make it something like a Void Warrior where all of the spells would do void damage and have a void taint to it... but every spell would look and feel like the paladin.

    This would make the Lore people like me happy and the people that only care to play undead paladins for show and looks happy ^^
    Last edited by Wolfrick; 2021-04-19 at 02:42 PM.
    -

    One Learns most when Teaching others!

  14. #214
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    8,360
    Racial themed skins for spells? Sign me in please, that would be so !@#$ing awesome
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    She will lead us down the path to Forsaken Paladins...


    ...but I won't say her name since it whips this forum up into a frenzy, much like saying Slyvanus.
    if you are talking about Calia. she is a different undead than the playable Forsaken.

    they were raised differently.
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  16. #216
    The Lightbringer KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)╭∩╮
    Posts
    3,346
    Quote Originally Posted by The Council View Post
    if you are talking about Calia. she is a different undead than the playable Forsaken.

    they were raised differently.

    Yeah I know and it's that same reason why I think they will use her as the catalyst to introduce light-infused Forsaken, and by extension Forsaken Paladins.


    Almost, but not quite, similar to the Void Elf situation. Alleria transformed into a Void Elf by consuming/fusing/merging/absorbing a Void naaru while the rest of the Void Elf race became Void Elves by being infused with the Void.


    In both cases, a naaru was involved. I just wonder...
    Last edited by KOUNTERPARTS; 2021-04-19 at 10:08 PM.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    Yeah I know and it's that same reason why I think they will use her as the catalyst to introduce light-infused Forsaken, and by extension Forsaken Paladins.


    Almost, but not quite, similar to the Void Elf situation. Alleria transformed into a Void Elf by consuming/fusing/merging/absorbing a Void naaru while the rest of the Void Elf race became Void Elves by being infused with the Void.


    In both cases, a naaru was involved. I just wonder...
    Calia is a slave to the light. she just doesnt know it yet
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  18. #218
    Yes, the one class that would attract individuals willing to endure endless torment and pain in service of their faith is definitely not a class that would ever attract individuals willing to endure endless torment and pain in service of their faith.

    Also, undead holy priests casts all kinds of Light spells on themselves and other undead without any problem. Including long term (effectively permanent) buffs that fill them with light.

    But who cares about any of that? Random people who think racial restrictions aren't at all an outdated concept (and has been for decades, just like all RPG's granddaddy figured out back in 2000) say "well dey couldn't be one before, so there MUST be a reason for it, and anyone saying they should be able to be one is just wrong for Reasons(tm)!" And, apparently, that's gospel no matter how utterly ridiculous an argument it is.

    Undead Paladins would be the most paladiny paladins of all paladins in the game, simply for their willingness to endure the (alleged) pain.

    Also you guys should look up self-flagellation and similar real-world religious practices sometime, too.
    Last edited by Something Wicked; 2021-04-20 at 04:06 AM.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Something Wicked View Post
    Yes, the one class that would attract individuals willing to endure endless torment and pain in service of their faith is definitely not a class that would ever attract individuals willing to endure endless torment and pain in service of their faith.

    Also, undead holy priests casts all kinds of Light spells on themselves and other undead without any problem. Including long term (effectively permanent) buffs that fill them with light.

    But who cares about any of that? Random people who think racial restrictions aren't at all an outdated concept (and has been for decades, just like all RPG's granddaddy figured out back in 2000) say "well dey couldn't be one before, so there MUST be a reason for it, and anyone saying they should be able to be one is just wrong for Reasons(tm)!" And, apparently, that's gospel no matter how utterly ridiculous an argument it is.

    Undead Paladins would be the most paladiny paladins of all paladins in the game, simply for their willingness to endure the (alleged) pain.

    Also you guys should look up self-flagellation and similar real-world religious practices sometime, too.
    Self-flagellation does seem like a very Forsaken thing to do, given some of the Forsaken's penchant for being emotionally mute, or emotionally dull to anything besides pain. It seems incredibly on-brand for their kind of faith to be kind of metal in the sense that they're suffering more. Especially, as "what joy is there in this curse," and all that. Undeath isn't a very happy-go-lucky situation, and if faith would be a kind of reprieve on that it would kind of lessen the Forsaken's situation as then people could just turn around and go, "well just worship the Light if you want to have a good Undeath." Having even that be kind of torturous, like the rest of their existence, brings it a bit more gravity to their situation, like there really is no recourse for death and that it is really kind of like a living hell. But most importantly of all I think there is definitely a point to be made that this kind of angle is pretty bad-ass in a way that is very Forsaken.

  20. #220
    The Lightbringer KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)╭∩╮
    Posts
    3,346
    Quote Originally Posted by The Council View Post
    Calia is a slave to the light. she just doesnt know it yet

    That would be an interesting development.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •