Undead Paladin?

[shoc]

I think it's time for next expansion to allow all races all classes combos. It's all "impossibru", until Blizzard inevitably puts in a loophole.

At this point it's about time they just take this step and recognize player characters as exceptional, as they are and allow combos that are not typical to otherwise plain grunts.

And ultimately yes, if there is Zeliek and Holy Undead Priests who get access to light because they are exceptional, imo it's fine no give undead paladins too and brand it as Zeliek type of wonder only few, PC among them, can pull out.

As a whole now that I think about it, light for undead being banned ship has sailed in 1.0 with undead priests, which I imagine was a necessity at the time. This lore fart I heard here about them somehow being "devoted bearing the pain" matches the paladin profile just as well.

It was basically an excuse to cover lack of time they had in Vanilla development to style undead priest holy spells and trees as shadow versions. Not blaming them, I imagine it was complex to the point of undead priests being a class of their own in those archaic times.

I don't think it has to be complicated to explain every possible class/race combo. They can just be trained by class trainers. Undead Monks were explained easily just by having a Pandaren make an appearance in the starting zone. Could just have an Undead Paladin show up explaining how he was a Forsaken Warrior who learned from the Priests a technique to wield the Light in a way that didn't tear them apart. Boom bam presto easy.

[Shadowferal]

Bad writing aside nothing is physically restraining Tauren from worshiping the Sun or using the light any Tauren could become one with the right training/faith.

Undead who use the light feel as if they are being fully engulfed in fire. Undead Paladins who are infused with the Light 24-7 would be constantly feeling the effects. They face an extraordinarily high barrier to overcome unlike any other race except perhaps Void Elves.

I agree on both points but on the former I'd alter the writing so tauren would have different abilities... Keep certain core priest/healer stuff...but change the terminology so the "flavor" isn't so "priestly."

As for "undead paladins" it's a ridiculous idea. Just because Blizz keeps writing shit doesn't mean they should keep rubberstamping more of the same.

[Dreyen]

Screw undead paladins, I want undead druids with undead animal forms.

[Shadowferal]

Screw undead paladins, I want undead druids with undead animal forms.

"Death druids?"
It's got potential. A corrupted form of the circle of life druid ideal. Writing it... I'd strictly limit it to the forsaken. And though the aesthetics would obviously appear very much a shapechanged corpsicle, game mechanics probably wouldn't change much beyond adding a disease factor.

[StillMcfuu]

They technically exist in game lore... and really they should exist for players. Justification wise, just the zeal and belief required to wield the light while it is also physically painful (sort of, more in a sec) to you is probably the most bad ass justification for allowing the Undead to be paladin.

As for the light "burning" them, it's not exactly that they are being damaged, it just feels that way. Another side issue is the prolonged exposure makes the user or person being healed feel as if they are "alive" again. Making them feel more, such as feeling the decay of their body, popping of bones, tasting undeath in their mouth. Undead light users are essentially those holy sects that beat themselves to be closer to God. It's extreme self-flagellation.

[Something Wicked]

Yes...lets make everything better by just being identical to one another!

Yes! That's exactly what will happen!

Unlike now where if you're Horde and want to be a druid, you're identical to the Tauren and Troll druids, because no one else can fucking be one! And GOD, all the variation of Demon Hunters out there. It's mind boggling, what with only one breed of elf per faction being able to be one. The diversity is AMAZING.

YOU NAILED IT! YOU UNLOCKED THE SECRET OF NOT BEING IDENTICAL TO OTHERS! Wow, I wish I had your level of ingenuity, inventiveness, and creative thinking! I'm SO jealous!!!

(That's sarcasm, if it wasn't obvious. And yes, it TOTALLY ruined Dungeons & Dragons when they did the same thing. Why, there's no variety whatsoever in that game. Nope. Everyone is a fucking clone of each other, what with literally HUNDREDS of variations possible just with the base races alone.)

[Soon-TM]

you can get cut off from the light.

Not when you are freaking imbued with it, as is the case of LF goats. I mean, it's in their very name.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes! That's exactly what will happen!

Unlike now where if you're Horde and want to be a druid, you're identical to the Tauren and Troll druids, because no one else can fucking be one! And GOD, all the variation of Demon Hunters out there. It's mind boggling, what with only one breed of elf per faction being able to be one. The diversity is AMAZING.

YOU NAILED IT! YOU UNLOCKED THE SECRET OF NOT BEING IDENTICAL TO OTHERS! Wow, I wish I had your level of ingenuity, inventiveness, and creative thinking! I'm SO jealous!!!

(That's sarcasm, if it wasn't obvious. And yes, it TOTALLY ruined Dungeons & Dragons when they did the same thing. Why, there's no variety whatsoever in that game. Nope. Everyone is a fucking clone of each other, what with literally HUNDREDS of variations possible just with the base races alone.)

Hey you.

Yeah, you.

I like you

- - - Updated - - -

Undead light users are essentially those holy sects that beat themselves to be closer to God. It's extreme self-flagellation.

I mean, us Hordies need to have an equivalent of a void elf DK when it comes to edgyness

[masterjc]

Bridenbrad would like to have a word with you about Paladins being immune to plague.

Also, Gilneas had to be evacuated because of the Blight. Not that that has anything to do with Worgen being able to revere the Light, as Worgen Priests exist and worship the Light as noted by the Priest Trainer in the starting zone.

according to blizzard lore, Paladins are immune to plagues, so while Gilneas might have Paladins, they remained human, and didnot turn into worgen, and paladins didnot turn into undead, while those paladins, who were corrupted/chose to join dark path, were turned into death knight

this was old lore, lots of stuff was fucked up recently

[Razion]

according to blizzard lore, Paladins are immune to plagues, so while Gilneas might have Paladins, they remained human, and didnot turn into worgen, and paladins didnot turn into undead, while those paladins, who were corrupted/chose to join dark path, were turned into death knight

this was old lore, lots of stuff was fucked up recently

Original DK units do have an old description that reads 'immunity to disease of any kind', and yet we see Paladins like Bridenbrad were victims of the Plague. Given that the Paladins in the DK unit text had been shunned by society as being perceived infected by the Plague, and also that they were corrupted on the way to the Frozen Throne and accepted the power at that point, I think it's fair to say that their perceived immunity to disease was false in the face of the Plague, that the Paladins thought themselves immune to the Plague but weren't as the citizens saw, and that that's what actually ended up corrupting them along their long crusade (tale of hubris). We know that the Plague has mind-rotting capabilities, that the citizens noticed their corruption, and that they got worse over time as if they were slowly succumbing to corruption (getting more resentful of the citizen's claims, presumably). We know also that Paladins can't directly cure the Plague when others are infected. Again, in Bridenbrad's quest we know that not really anything could stop the Plague, and you were only immune to it if you were already Undead. It seems when it comes to Paladins, they can perhaps keep their bodies whole, maybe heal physical damage caused by it, but they can't cleanse it entirely (Plaguelands and Quel'thalas' Scar would be cured, otherwise) or reverse things like the mind-rotting as it would still be a 'whole brain', just changing and different. (Plague being mutating or changing or adaptive in nature isn't unheard of.)

We know from many other examples like Scarlets in Stratholme, of Reanimated Crusaders near Scourgeholme, Zeliek, and more, that Paladins being raised into Undeath isn't uncommon and wielding Light-based abilities also isn't off the table. That much can't be disputed.

But it's a bit interesting with the Gilnean Paladins in regards to DKs. They could have been infected before they left, but under this chain of events eventually falling to madness, wouldn't have made sense for a player DK as they would have been Scourge-aligned and not willing to rebel against Arthas. The Arugal Worgen are unique in that they have the opportunity to have been killed without falling to corruption along the journey, so when the player as a DK turns against Arthas they weren't already corrupted and could turn. I think this plays into the mind-rot state of the Plague, and how necessary it is for a Paladin to have the Plague for a long time before they can be controlled unless they're just being slain and raised. Like we see with Zeliek, perhaps that was one example of a Paladin with a whole mind that could continue to rebel even if his body was under control.

Anyway, in terms of what this says about Worgen Paladins, there isn't actually anything I can find that says Paladins are immune to the Worgen Curse. And at the very least, Priests and Warriors are susceptible and even normal Paladins aren't immune to the Plague either - whether it be from mind-rot or if they're too weak to hold it off from their wounds, or otherwise.

[slime]

"Death druids?"
It's got potential. A corrupted form of the circle of life druid ideal. Writing it... I'd strictly limit it to the forsaken. And though the aesthetics would obviously appear very much a shapechanged corpsicle, game mechanics probably wouldn't change much beyond adding a disease factor.

They were born when Sylvanas burned the tree.

[malasio]

This thread is the perfect example of how shit the writing has become.

[Shadowferal]

They were born when Sylvanas burned the tree.

Hmm..okay, now you got me with an opposing faction with NE involvement.. I can work with this!

[masterjc]

Original DK units do have an old description that reads 'immunity to disease of any kind', and yet we see Paladins like Bridenbrad were victims of the Plague. Given that the Paladins in the DK unit text had been shunned by society as being perceived infected by the Plague, and also that they were corrupted on the way to the Frozen Throne and accepted the power at that point, I think it's fair to say that their perceived immunity to disease was false in the face of the Plague, that the Paladins thought themselves immune to the Plague but weren't as the citizens saw, and that that's what actually ended up corrupting them along their long crusade (tale of hubris). We know that the Plague has mind-rotting capabilities, that the citizens noticed their corruption, and that they got worse over time as if they were slowly succumbing to corruption (getting more resentful of the citizen's claims, presumably). We know also that Paladins can't directly cure the Plague when others are infected. Again, in Bridenbrad's quest we know that not really anything could stop the Plague, and you were only immune to it if you were already Undead. It seems when it comes to Paladins, they can perhaps keep their bodies whole, maybe heal physical damage caused by it, but they can't cleanse it entirely (Plaguelands and Quel'thalas' Scar would be cured, otherwise) or reverse things like the mind-rotting as it would still be a 'whole brain', just changing and different. (Plague being mutating or changing or adaptive in nature isn't unheard of.)

We know from many other examples like Scarlets in Stratholme, of Reanimated Crusaders near Scourgeholme, Zeliek, and more, that Paladins being raised into Undeath isn't uncommon and wielding Light-based abilities also isn't off the table. That much can't be disputed.

But it's a bit interesting with the Gilnean Paladins in regards to DKs. They could have been infected before they left, but under this chain of events eventually falling to madness, wouldn't have made sense for a player DK as they would have been Scourge-aligned and not willing to rebel against Arthas. The Arugal Worgen are unique in that they have the opportunity to have been killed without falling to corruption along the journey, so when the player as a DK turns against Arthas they weren't already corrupted and could turn. I think this plays into the mind-rot state of the Plague, and how necessary it is for a Paladin to have the Plague for a long time before they can be controlled unless they're just being slain and raised. Like we see with Zeliek, perhaps that was one example of a Paladin with a whole mind that could continue to rebel even if his body was under control.

Anyway, in terms of what this says about Worgen Paladins, there isn't actually anything I can find that says Paladins are immune to the Worgen Curse. And at the very least, Priests and Warriors are susceptible and even normal Paladins aren't immune to the Plague either - whether it be from mind-rot or if they're too weak to hold it off from their wounds, or otherwise.

I think old lore was pretty fucked up (probably paladin immunity spell - divine shield - was inspiration for pallies being unable to be plagued. I wont take brindebrad seriously, as it was mostly for person's reference and not a "true lore"

anyway, lore is pretty much fucked up. and gameplay>lore

for example, Hearthstones are very rare, while all of us have several hearthstones in-game, etc

thus I think it is still possible to make playable Forsaken paladins, but it will further ruin this faction

they had pretty unique background since classic. now paladins will make them more "humanized" and it sucks
from my POV, it ruins game

[Shadowferal]

thus I think it is still possible to make playable Forsaken paladins, but it will further ruin this faction, they had pretty unique background since classic. now paladins will make them more "humanized" and it sucks from my POV, it ruins game

I agree.
If someone insists on playing forsaken then he shouldn't want to play a paladin.

[Razion]

I think old lore was pretty fucked up (probably paladin immunity spell - divine shield - was inspiration for pallies being unable to be plagued. I wont take brindebrad seriously, as it was mostly for person's reference and not a "true lore"

anyway, lore is pretty much fucked up. and gameplay>lore

for example, Hearthstones are very rare, while all of us have several hearthstones in-game, etc

thus I think it is still possible to make playable Forsaken paladins, but it will further ruin this faction

they had pretty unique background since classic. now paladins will make them more "humanized" and it sucks
from my POV, it ruins game

Scarlet Crusade shows that there can be darker takes on Paladins. Forsaken, even if they believe in the Light, don't have to be lawful good about it. They could be crazy zealots in their own way with their own faith or take on religion, they don't have to copy humans.

[Kuja]

Dark Paladin. Kinda like a melee shadow priest, death knight or regular paladin with a twist.

[Maljinwo]

Undead and void elf paladins

After entering the world for the first time, your character screams out of pain and die 5 seconds later, automatically deleting the character

[Nosnogard]

Scarlet Crusade shows that there can be darker takes on Paladins. Forsaken, even if they believe in the Light, don't have to be lawful good about it. They could be crazy zealots in their own way with their own faith or take on religion, they don't have to copy humans.

Another good example of less than lawful good paladins are the Blood Knights in TBC. Their Charger quest is literally to help burn down the chapel in Stratholme. They also abuse a being of light for their own goals (Muru)

[Razion]

Undead and void elf paladins

After entering the world for the first time, your character screams out of pain and die 5 seconds later, automatically deleting the character

Is there actually any example of an Undead Paladin dying to their own power this way?

I think it's a little interesting you frame it that way, as compared to all the Undead Paladins that exist that haven't, that is, you'd think all the examples where this isn't the case would be a pretty clear indicator that this isn't the norm if it can even happen like this at all.

[masterjc]

Scarlet Crusade shows that there can be darker takes on Paladins. Forsaken, even if they believe in the Light, don't have to be lawful good about it. They could be crazy zealots in their own way with their own faith or take on religion, they don't have to copy humans.

cult of shadows, or whatever the name is, was created by Forsaken, who were rejected/abandoned by light (or felt so), and embraced shadows
also, there are lots of void an d even fel-based spells used in-game, as healing, by npcs of Burning Legion and Old God factions

we can assume, that all forsaken can go Shadow/Void priests, Kaldorei priests go Arcane/nature, alliance races go Disciple/Holy priests, Rendoirei go Void/shadow priests, etc

and for gameplay reasons, they use same mechanics

for example, Tauren Priests and Paladins are one class named Sunwalkers, who are Sun Druids
Blood elven Paladisn are Blood Knights, who are some kind of Plate weating Mages, who use Holy spells as power, instead of Arcane/frost/fire

and so on

for gameplay reasons, all do same stuff
I'd love to see lore for classes extended
similar to Fel Fire tome of warlocks, why cant different races of same class have different aestethics for same spells? would make greater impact, instead of limiting class/race combinations


before adding DK race, I made a thread long time ago, offering some sort of "prestige class"
adding new race/class combo for each race
for example, forsaken would have paladins, named Death Knights (similar how WC3 DKs were anti-paladins), whos spell would have different aestethics, but would do the same
Tauren paladins and so on