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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I havnt seen this very often, but I really dont understand it. I remember getting DST VERY early in the expansion, and that was super cool and a real buzz - I still remember it vividly, however I couldn't care less how many other people have it then, later in the expansion, and CERTAINLY not in later expansions. What i remember is the buzz i got getting the item, how fun that day was, rejigging my toon to work with the new item etc etc etc.

    Now obviously that item others cant see, but i feel exactly the same about mounts, or any xmog. Im happy when i get it, and dont care who else gets it.
    This. As long as you're trying for it, you'll always be able to take on challenges for new rewards. Almost every expansion offers new mythic mounts, transmogs, etc.

    You really don't need to retire any, because the old ones just become less special and there'll be new special ones to make up for it.

    Regardless, let's take Challenge Mode armor for example. I'm not saying it should be steamrollable, but it's an example of content that I think should still be available if you put in the work for it. Maybe with the use of some scaling tech.

  2. #222
    For me, it’s the argument that LFR is what allows them to make raids. I know a blue post implied that years ago but it’s just obviously untrue.
    Every single wow player should always try to make their own groups. Then you'd just have thousands of groups in group finder, without a single applicant.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Arewn View Post
    Recently, it would be "The slippery slop argument is a fallacy!"

    Yea, it is. That doesn't mean that that's not exactly what's going on. You know what else is a fallacy? Argument from fallacy.
    Yes, but it typically is used in ridiculous fashion: "if they change the water in classic, they will be adding flying next, and LFR!". This is the most common place i see people talk about a slippery slope - changes in classic. The other is when people compare Classic (2004) to SL (2020) and then try to claim the same level of iteration that occurred over those 15+ years will occur over the duration of SL alone.

    So to be clear, when i see someone claim "if they make even a single change to Classic, they will start adding flying, and LFR, and probably Demon hunters next! its a slippery slope!" then i will call it out.

    But if someone says "hey im just worried that if they start making these little changes, they might iterate a little too much and we end up in a pattern of small changes all adding up to a different experience to what i remember" - this is fine - and i somewhat agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.

  4. #224
    Stood in the Fire Karreck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arewn View Post
    Recently, it would be "The slippery slop argument is a fallacy!"

    Yea, it is. That doesn't mean that that's not exactly what's going on. You know what else is a fallacy? Argument from fallacy.
    Too many people on the internet love to accuse others of fallacies, but they themselves do not understand what the cited fallacy, or fallacies in general, actually means.
    Princesses can kill knights to rescue dragons.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    For me, it’s the argument that LFR is what allows them to make raids. I know a blue post implied that years ago but it’s just obviously untrue.
    And i hate it when people misinterpreted or misunderstand what is being referenced here. The fact is it would be far more difficult for them to justify the time spent creating raids if only a tiny percentage of players participated. If it was only mythic raids, and they remained as exclusive as they are now, there is no way they could justify the time and money spent designing and balancing them. Of the other difficulties, LFR has by far the highest participation rate, in particular people who exclusively participate in LFR and no other form of raiding.

    Instead of looking at it as black/white - LFR or NO more raids - look at the core message being delivered - any activity in wow needs to have high enough participation from the player base to justify the time/money put into development. I think this is a real strength of M+, and part of the reason it is highly likely to remain a core part of every expansion. Due to its scalable nature, participation is no doubt VERY high. Sure, not everyone is doing a +15, or even a +4, but i have no doubt it has very high participation overall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    This. As long as you're trying for it, you'll always be able to take on challenges for new rewards. Almost every expansion offers new mythic mounts, transmogs, etc.

    You really don't need to retire any, because the old ones just become less special and there'll be new special ones to make up for it.

    Regardless, let's take Challenge Mode armor for example. I'm not saying it should be steamrollable, but it's an example of content that I think should still be available if you put in the work for it. Maybe with the use of some scaling tech.
    Agree - I do understand those players POV - I just dont agree with it. I earned some pretty cool and "rare" items over 15+ years of playing wow, but i couldnt give a rats arse if everyone else had it, certainly not later on. MT is another example - if they reintroduce this again, they should have a way to unlock the older ones too - maybe once you have unlocked the NEW skin, you have the chance to redo the challenge again but for the old legion skins.

    On that topic i tried to tell everyone during Legion that although the MT was exceptionally fun for me personally, Blizzard obviously didnt see it as a success, as they didnt carry it on. for dozens of pages i was told i was an idiot and they would absolutely, 100% be introducing a new MT later in BfA. Then i was told it would 100% be launched in SL - and yet here we are......years later with no sign of another MT.

    I often wonder why, but all i can think is it was too much work compared to the participation numbers, which is a shame, because i really liked it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    And i hate it when people misinterpreted or misunderstand what is being referenced here. The fact is it would be far more difficult for them to justify the time spent creating raids if only a tiny percentage of players participated. If it was only mythic raids, and they remained as exclusive as they are now, there is no way they could justify the time and money spent designing and balancing them. Of the other difficulties, LFR has by far the highest participation rate, in particular people who exclusively participate in LFR and no other form of raiding.

    Instead of looking at it as black/white - LFR or NO more raids - look at the core message being delivered - any activity in wow needs to have high enough participation from the player base to justify the time/money put into development. I think this is a real strength of M+, and part of the reason it is highly likely to remain a core part of every expansion. Due to its scalable nature, participation is no doubt VERY high. Sure, not everyone is doing a +15, or even a +4, but i have no doubt it has very high participation overall.

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    Agree - I do understand those players POV - I just dont agree with it. I earned some pretty cool and "rare" items over 15+ years of playing wow, but i couldnt give a rats arse if everyone else had it, certainly not later on. MT is another example - if they reintroduce this again, they should have a way to unlock the older ones too - maybe once you have unlocked the NEW skin, you have the chance to redo the challenge again but for the old legion skins.

    On that topic i tried to tell everyone during Legion that although the MT was exceptionally fun for me personally, Blizzard obviously didnt see it as a success, as they didnt carry it on. for dozens of pages i was told i was an idiot and they would absolutely, 100% be introducing a new MT later in BfA. Then i was told it would 100% be launched in SL - and yet here we are......years later with no sign of another MT.

    I often wonder why, but all i can think is it was too much work compared to the participation numbers, which is a shame, because i really liked it.
    Agreed that it’s a continuum. I’m not advocating for LFR’s removal, but raiding survived just fine for 4 expansions without it.

    To me, the idea that wow would have continued sans raiding without LFR just seems really silly.

    I don’t know how much it costs to make a raid but I’d be skeptical if it’s over $10 million, and it’s certainly not $100 million. Obviously this is complicated because assets are reused between different forms of the game, but again, there’s no way it’s a big number, and if you have 1 million raiders who stay subbed, you make about $100 million in revenue from those players every year just from sub and box costs. It’s very hard to come up with a combination of numbers that suggests raiding is not viable without LFR. Is it more profitable with LFR? Sure.

    But don’t buy the sucker’s argument that blizzard is scraping together nickels and dimes to make a dollar here.
    Every single wow player should always try to make their own groups. Then you'd just have thousands of groups in group finder, without a single applicant.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    So does this mean you finally agree it is not a lore issue, but gameplay design issue?

    At first you said it was lore issue. Then you said it was philosophy issue. Now it seems you agree its none of those and just a simple game development choice to not let all races be all classes.
    You want absolution, which is a bit funny. I had stated they are outliers, rather than something that's common. These races are still bound to follow guidelines.

    DHs for example. There were Orc, Draenei and even Human DHs, but they weren't trained by Illidan. The DH PCs are Illidari, DHs trained by Illidan himself. The same Illidari that got locked away with him following his defeat at the Black Temple.

    That's a lore-specific reason why DHs are locked to Night and Blood Elves. The same case goes for Dwarven Shamanism. Following Magni's ritual to commune with the elements that turned him to solid diamond, the Dwarves took to Shamanism to find the same answers Magni was seeking.

    The list goes on and on and I could continue to go on and on if need be, but my point is proven enough as it is. Bottom of the line is, there's multiple factors that play into why classes are race locked. Vs your one factor for why they shouldn't be.

    Just keep begging Blizz for whatever combo it is you'd like. I'm sure if there's enough demand, they'll get around to it and present a lore reason for it. No matter how silly it is, like with the Gnomes and Tauren.

  8. #228
    "You want things handed to you" when I criticise bloated grind systems and say I want collecting things to be faster and easier on each alt I have.

    I collected all the non-instanced mogs, pets, mounts and toys in Legion during Legion, and did the same in BfA zones during BfA, including all the mage tower appearances for every spec aside from the healers (damn you, Australian latency)... but I want things "handed to me" because I think the anima grind is way too long when you add extra characters into the mix and wish the amount we got would scale up based on our Renown.

    Then they say "you don't need those things, they're optional", but they'll complain for literal expansions about titanforging, which they don't need to finish raids or dungeons. They'll complain about having to grind artifact power or azerite traits, even though those aren't necessary to succeed in dungeons and raids. Yet suddenly it's an important, critical issue they can't get away from, but I never had any of those problems because I didn't raid or do mythic dungeons. Almost like they're choosing a playstyle and have criticisms about the systems. Like me with my playstyle. That they claim "doesn't matter" because "it's optional". In a game they choose to play.

    Hypocrites.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    You calling me a liar is actually pathetic of you. I was speaking the truth. Every server I have toons on is packed 24/7. Just cause it is more popular than your little mind likes; does not mean I am a liar.

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    I was not pretending, perhaps you are though. Every server I play on is always packed 24/7
    What servers are these. I have had a look around on the highest pop Oceanic server on prime time and I'm seeing about 15 or so bored 60s and a couple of low levels. I login to my current leveling guy in Feralas I think it's called and I type who and there's 2 people. I try to get a little chat going in LFG channel and I get no response. Is this what it means when the servers are packed? It's dead. I was there when it was packed. I was there 6 months later and it was packed and the server my classic main was on was pve which meant it was one of the less populated ones.

    I am calling you a liar. I don't know what your agenda gains from lying but it's pretty easy to see that you are not telling that truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keelr View Post
    I'm sorry but if you think someone who boost to level 50! rn is gaining advantage on you, then I'm seriosly sorry for you. The level boost isn't a pay to win feature because in WoW in 2021 levelling in older expansions is not a relevant content nor does it effect the power of your character on max level. You don't gain advantage on others by skipping 10 hours of levelling.
    If it isn't an advantage then why do it? You get a complete set of gear better than what you would get if you levelled. You are closer to the end goal of 60. You get a complete set of bags. By the time the other guy gets to 60 you've already played 10 hours at 60 and have far superior gear. Those are four advantages right there. It doesn't matter if the advantages are small they still exist. That means that it's a form of P2W.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    For me, it’s the argument that LFR is what allows them to make raids. I know a blue post implied that years ago but it’s just obviously untrue.
    Do we listen to the armchair developer or do we listen to an officially sanctioned and endorsed message from the company. It wasn't implied. It was stated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cozzri View Post
    I just want to add to this, if flying is such a huge problem for a certain part of the player-base, why not just add NO-FLY servers for them so everyone else doesn't have to suffer pathfinder for 10 years.
    Every server is a no fly server if you want it to be. Just don't fly. It is that simple. No need to make a server no fly for those 47 people that don't like flying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by MMOTherapist View Post
    For me:
    When there is a generalization to defend every kind of Timegating instead of critically thinking on a case by case situation.
    The exact quote that triggers me immensely is:

    "If it wasn't for timegating you would clear the game very fast, be bored, complain and unsubscribe"

    <------- me
    The one where people tell me how i should play the game and that i shouldn't be asking for more solo content that is easy harder or hardest for world quests those guys are super annoying and im happy i can think for myself and not listen to others.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    But don’t buy the sucker’s argument that blizzard is scraping together nickels and dimes to make a dollar here.
    Difference is that pre LFR, raids were often cobbled together with existing assets, whereas nowadays raids feature far often more unique architecture / assets.
    Look at any of the raids from Classic to Cata, most of them were largely cobbled together from existing assets, (barring some exceptions such as BT).

    If you then look at raids such as ToT, it features far more unique assets and enviroment.

    The production quality for raids has most certainly stepped up, the irony however that due to their "play the patch" design, Blizzard now throws those very unique enviroments into the bin every 6 months.
    I think most of that money just goes into assets and unique interior, where i frankly question the value of that or whether raiders above the LFR difficulty would really reject that entire thing if Blizzard would just re use their assets more cleverly, as they did in the past.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    None of them piss me off. Quite a few amuse me however, for example:

    -People who deny this game has some pretty significant, developer endorsed P2W elements.
    -People who claim that wanting a "fast smooth run" is something other than wanting to be carried.

    That sort of thing.

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    It is. BfA was an absolute dumpster of an expansion.
    And so is shadowlands but somehow more boring.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    This is an objectively terrible argument. That is not pay to win at all. You sound foolish.
    Except it's the definition of p2w because it gives you an advantage over players who don't spend that $60. It doesn't need to be a huge gamebreaking thing. It just needs to be an advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keelr View Post
    I'm sorry but if you think someone who boost to level 50! rn is gaining advantage on you, then I'm seriosly sorry for you. The level boost isn't a pay to win feature because in WoW in 2021 levelling in older expansions is not a relevant content nor does it effect the power of your character on max level. You don't gain advantage on others by skipping 10 hours of levelling.
    It doesn't matter if it's a "10 hour advantage" or however little you quantify it. It's still an advantage and therefore falls within the definition of p2w

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Except it's the definition of p2w because it gives you an advantage over players who don't spend that $60. It doesn't need to be a huge gamebreaking thing. It just needs to be an advantage.
    No. No one has an advantage. That’s 100% wrong. You really don’t understand the concepts you’re speaking about.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    No. No one has an advantage. That’s 100% wrong. You really don’t understand the concepts you’re speaking about.
    Advantage: any state, circumstance, opportunity, or means specially favorable to success, interest, or any desired end

    Just because you think leveling is easy doesn't mean the level boost isn't an advantage. Another player not spending the money would have to work through other parts of the game before getting to current content. Someone paying $60 gets to skip all that, therefore making it an advantage. The only person who is wrong and doesn't understand what p2w is would be you and other people saying it's not an advantage.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Difference is that pre LFR, raids were often cobbled together with existing assets, whereas nowadays raids feature far often more unique architecture / assets.
    Look at any of the raids from Classic to Cata, most of them were largely cobbled together from existing assets, (barring some exceptions such as BT).

    If you then look at raids such as ToT, it features far more unique assets and enviroment.

    The production quality for raids has most certainly stepped up, the irony however that due to their "play the patch" design, Blizzard now throws those very unique enviroments into the bin every 6 months.
    I think most of that money just goes into assets and unique interior, where i frankly question the value of that or whether raiders above the LFR difficulty would really reject that entire thing if Blizzard would just re use their assets more cleverly, as they did in the past.
    While this is true, I think there's a distinction between "this is what our bosses allow us to spend" and "this isn't profitable anymore". And agreed, I don't think they need to spend as much as they do on raid assets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    This is an objectively terrible argument. That is not pay to win at all. You sound foolish.
    Maybe trying making an actual argument instead of just calling someone dumb? And "objectively" is one of those words that people use on the internet to sound smart but it actually means nothing and usually should just be removed from a sentence, as is true of your statement.
    Every single wow player should always try to make their own groups. Then you'd just have thousands of groups in group finder, without a single applicant.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Agreed that it’s a continuum. I’m not advocating for LFR’s removal, but raiding survived just fine for 4 expansions without it.

    To me, the idea that wow would have continued sans raiding without LFR just seems really silly.

    I don’t know how much it costs to make a raid but I’d be skeptical if it’s over $10 million, and it’s certainly not $100 million. Obviously this is complicated because assets are reused between different forms of the game, but again, there’s no way it’s a big number, and if you have 1 million raiders who stay subbed, you make about $100 million in revenue from those players every year just from sub and box costs. It’s very hard to come up with a combination of numbers that suggests raiding is not viable without LFR. Is it more profitable with LFR? Sure.

    But don’t buy the sucker’s argument that blizzard is scraping together nickels and dimes to make a dollar here.
    Sorry but all those numbers are absolutely, completely, 100% made up, therefore everything you said is entirely baseless. Blizzard have made it clear that LFR is a large factor in the justification for time dedicated to creating raids - you are gently trying to disagree, with entirely fabricated numbers. $10m? $100m? 1m players? all entirely fabricated.

    If you have literally zero knowledge of the actual numbers, and your argument is strong without them, leave the numbers out. It just feels like you threw some completely random numbers down to try and bolster your argument. You are essentially attempting to say "i disagree with blizzards comments about LFR" but have literally zero evidence to support it, other than "it survived for 4 years without lfr". This comment in itself is not "wrong", but very misguided. It survived so long without it because for the most part, the raids were not far off modern LFR difficulty to begin with, and certainly didnt even come close to current normal/heroic, let alone mythic.

    There also seems to be some weird idea that when we discuss the time/cost justification for raids, people seem to focus almost exclusively on assets - while ignoring the bulk of the time - planning, boss encounter design, abilities, tuning, testing etc etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Every server is a no fly server if you want it to be. Just don't fly. It is that simple. No need to make a server no fly for those 47 people that don't like flying.
    I believe its down to 43 now - a few moved on to other mmos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Advantage: any state, circumstance, opportunity, or means specially favorable to success, interest, or any desired end

    Just because you think leveling is easy doesn't mean the level boost isn't an advantage. Another player not spending the money would have to work through other parts of the game before getting to current content. Someone paying $60 gets to skip all that, therefore making it an advantage. The only person who is wrong and doesn't understand what p2w is would be you and other people saying it's not an advantage.
    I find it extremely frustrating that some people refuse to accept the reality - it absolutely is an advantage, and by definition, that makes it P2W. Now, as i have said before, that does NOT mean i am against it - im just saying how it is. Its always the same thing - cherry picked scenarios to justify it NOT being P2W, while ignoring all others. Lets present the other side of the argument:

    Players 1 & 2 missed out on TBC first time around, and are very excited to try it when it comes out. They have no interest in vanilla. Launch day comes - one pays for the boost, one does not (either because they cannot afford it, or cannot justify the spend). How can anyone seriously claim the person who paid for the boost is not at an instant advantage over the other player?

    People try some crazy mental gymnastics to try justify it - "oh they should just sub in prepatch and level" "the guy who cant afford it should sub a month earlier and level up!" sure, fine, but that does not change the fact that the player who is paying for a boost is at an advantage - even if the other person levels one first, this guy could do the same, then have TWO lvl 60s at launch, another advantage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.

  18. #238
    "Blizzard should listen to what the fans say."

    "Flying is the only reason I still play this game. Traveling sucks."

    "Casuals shouldn't be able to get (insert item here)."

    And the list goes on and on.
    Still calling them out, one infraction at a time.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    "Blizzard should listen to what the fans say."

    "Flying is the only reason I still play this game. Traveling sucks."

    "Casuals shouldn't be able to get (insert item here)."

    And the list goes on and on.
    I can honestly say i have never seen ANY of these arguments, certainly not presented in the way you present them here. I HAVE seen people say "Blizzard should listen to player feedback during beta phases" which is not a bad thing to say, considering the significant levels of feedback Blizzard have received on certain topics, only to push forward unchanged and then try to Band-Aid fix it later in the expansion - admitting the things said during beta were in fact accurate.

    I have seen people say flying is a factor in their enjoyment of tedious tasks like WQ and the like, and they wished it was unlocked from day 1. I have not seen a single person say flying is the only reason they play the game.

    I have seen people say rewards should match the effort and difficulty of a certain activity, but i have not seen anyone claim "casuals shouldn't be able to get XYZ"

    The topics are accurate, but the way you presented them is not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.

  20. #240
    "I'm not coping, but..."

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