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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I've explained it like three times. Maybe read everything instead of skimming. tl;dr is that you're able to get into current content and ultimately end game content WAY quicker than someone who didn't buy the level boost. Read the definition of advantage again because I'm starting to think you're not 100% on what the word means.
    No you fucking haven't. Here's other definitions, that I know you skipped over in google.....

    pay-to-win
    Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

    Pay to Win
    PTW is used in gaming with the meaning "Pay to Win" to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs (Non-Player Characters).

    And even your definition, DOES NOT have anything to do with WoW.

    There's no advantage. You just keep saying there is one. There isn't. Getting to endgame content 10 hours quicker does not give you an advantage. You are the one struggling with words. There's no achievement points for getting to 58 fast. There's no gear advantage. There's no end game advantage. There's no way to fucking WIN the game.

    Again, for WoW to pay to win, you'd have to be able to do something like buy gear or reach levels or buy abilities you couldn't get in game. THATs an advantage in wow. In fact, a very easy argument can be made that if 2 people who've never played wow before, each started and one leveled for real and one boosted, that the non boosted player would actually have an advantage in end game content because they'll have a better understanding of the toon's tool kit and likely have better gear by level cap and more gold.

    Following your "logic", buying a store mount is pay to win too.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    No you fucking haven't. Here's other definitions, that I know you skipped over in google.....

    pay-to-win
    Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

    Pay to Win
    PTW is used in gaming with the meaning "Pay to Win" to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs (Non-Player Characters).

    And even your definition, DOES NOT have anything to do with WoW.

    There's no advantage. You just keep saying there is one. There isn't. Getting to endgame content 10 hours quicker does not give you an advantage. You are the one struggling with words. There's no achievement points for getting to 58 fast. There's no gear advantage. There's no end game advantage. There's no way to fucking WIN the game.

    Again, for WoW to pay to win, you'd have to be able to do something like buy gear or reach levels or buy abilities you couldn't get in game. THATs an advantage in wow. In fact, a very easy argument can be made that if 2 people who've never played wow before, each started and one leveled for real and one boasted, that the non boosted player would actually have an advantage in end game content because they'll have a better understanding of the toon's tool kit and likely have better gear by level cap and more gold.
    I've stated the facts and you ignored them numerous times. You clearly have absolutely no idea what the word advantage means and I'm not going to explain it again. You have your opinion on what is and isn't P2W. your opinion is wrong but a lot of opinions often are. You've had three people explain it to you now and you have just stuck your fingers in your ears and refused to listen to logic.

    Whether you like it or not, character boosts are a textbook example of p2w.

    Also, if mounts weren't readily available without paying real money for it, then buying a store mount absolutely WOULD be pay to win.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I've stated the facts and you ignored them numerous times. You clearly have absolutely no idea what the word advantage means and I'm not going to explain it again. You have your opinion on what is and isn't P2W. your opinion is wrong but a lot of opinions often are. You've had three people explain it to you now and you have just stuck your fingers in your ears and refused to listen to logic.

    Whether you like it or not, character boosts are a textbook example of p2w.

    Also, if mounts weren't readily available without paying real money for it, then buying a store mount absolutely WOULD be pay to win.
    You have not stated a single fact.

    You haven't explained the advantage at all. i suspect it is because you cannot, but lack the fortitude to admit you're wrong.

    Your last sentence here proves just how fucking wrong you are with this, because while what you just said is true to mounts it is also the argument I'm making about leveling.

    You can readily get to level 58 in the game without a real money purchase, just as you can readily get a mount in the game without a real money purchase. You choose to call one pay to win and the other not. It is lack of understanding on your part.

    I challenge you again to explain this advantage in detail......
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    You have not stated a single fact.

    You haven't explained the advantage at all. i suspect it is because you cannot, but lack the fortitude to admit you're wrong.

    Your last sentence here proves just how fucking wrong you are with this, because while what you just said is true to mounts it is also the argument I'm making about leveling.

    You can readily get to level 58 in the game without a real money purchase, just as you can readily get a mount in the game without a real money purchase. You choose to call one pay to win and the other not. It is lack of understanding on your part.

    I challenge you again to explain this advantage in detail......
    Mounts are readily available in game. To say they aren't is just dishonest.

    I've explained everything in detail. Either read my past posts or honestly stop replying to my posts because I'm not repeating myself anymore.

  5. #265
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    @Bodakane imagine the following situations.

    Player A is a complete, utter scrub who can barely tie his/her shoes. He/she will barely be able to gear up to ~200 ilvl, i.e. covenant set plus world quests loot.

    Player B is another lowly scrub, but buys a couple of tokens and pays for several HC CN/M+ boosts. After a couple of weeks, he/she will be sporting a lot of 213 pieces, unlike player A.

    As we can see, player B has an objective advantage over player A, one that was obtained through RL money, not through skill or dedication. And bear in mind that I'm not even talking about swiping your mighty credit card in order to buy mythic BoE's.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Mounts are readily available in game. To say they aren't is just dishonest.

    I've explained everything in detail. Either read my past posts or honestly stop replying to my posts because I'm not repeating myself anymore.

    Leveling to 58 is readily available too, just like mounts. I also never said mounts were NOT readily available, so stop lying.

    I've read your posts. You don't make an argument supported by anything. You just say getting to 58 by boost is an advantage. You don't; explain how or why it is. In fact you flat out refuse to do it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    @Bodakane imagine the following situations.

    Player A is a complete, utter scrub who can barely tie his/her shoes. He/she will barely be able to gear up to ~200 ilvl, i.e. covenant set plus world quests loot.

    Player B is another lowly scrub, but buys a couple of tokens and pays for several HC CN/M+ boosts. After a couple of weeks, he/she will be sporting a lot of 213 pieces, unlike player A.

    As we can see, player B has an objective advantage over player A, one that was obtained through RL money, not through skill or dedication. And bear in mind that I'm not even talking about swiping your mighty credit card in order to buy mythic BoE's.
    You are not describing the scenario I'm arguing at all.

    I'm talking solely about boosting a character to 58 through Blizz store. Not paying players to carry you through content.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  7. #267
    The Lightbringer
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    That effort is more important than ability.

    If I can do 95% of my potential without even remotely trying and 99% with a little bit of awareness in times I feel very switched on and attentive, all the while enjoying myself with no pressure and no ability to fuck anything up, I'm satisfied and absolutely believe myself superior to a drone that will obsessively follow a meta and try to play the way some other good player like myself plays. They rarely enjoy themselves outside of 'being competitive' and 'doing the best I can do' and other such things that are irrelevant to actually playing the game. They are middling players at best and will purport that their achievements, scores and other shit means they are good despite their very limited success coming entirely from effort, strain and doing lots of tedious unfun things to squeeze the tiniest possible advantage out of things- usually out of terror that someone else will do the same if they do not. Compare this to someone like me that turns up, mashes buttons and does roughly the same performance, take or give a % due to RNG and attention. Sweaters are a cancer on gaming in general, far worse than casuals ever were. They have ability level of casuals but rather than just getting good or playing better, they just play more and struggle as hard as they can for every tiny advantage to get anywhere and rather than show off their greatness will link scores, ratings and other shit because these empty things are all they have. It's pathetic.

    God I fucking hate sweaters so much. I remember telling bad players to get good for years and rather than that they just ruined the game by trying to redefine what "good" was and now what's "good" isn't playing well or being good at the game, it's doing tedious lopsided things for tiny advantages out of terror that someone else will get another tiny edge until it all becomes a chase towards some title or rating that means nothing. All I know is that casuals ruined the game for me and then sweaters ruined the game for casuals. It's only a matter of time before people start coming together to bully and laugh at sweaters and they get replaced by something almost certainly worse but I'll be glad to sit back and laugh at them from the grave of the game.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    There's 2 for me:

    1. Tauren's can't be rogues because they're too big and have hooves. As if the "realism" line should be drawn is before taurens being rogues but after elephants that can jump, anyone even gnomes can carry literally over a hundred pieces of armor and weapons, flying cities, etc. Its mind crushingly stupid.

    2. A member of a given race would never want to join the other faction or be X class. Fantasy and SciFi were more or less created to show how stupid race based rules are. My god, even the granddaddy of all sword and board and dragon stories was about a member of a non adventurous race being different and going on an adventure. All it does is flatten the created world by forcing it to be inhabited by 2D characters.
    ILU. Seriously. You said everything that I have been trying to explain for years. I just want my Tauren warlock. D:

    On topic, however: People who complain there is absolutely nothing to do in-game when there clearly ARE things to be done. Having nothing and choosing not to partake are two entirely different things. Like if you want to change your sentence to "There is nothing in the game I like doing" Is fine, just not. "THERE'S NOTHING TO DO D:" It literally makes me facepalm in anger.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Have you seen my posts over the past few days? You should be asking yourself why I'm alive, not why I don't have friends.
    Change is inevitable, Growth is optional.

  9. #269
    That Tracer is good and doesn't need any buffs.

    Wait... where am I?

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Leveling to 58 is readily available too, just like mounts. I also never said mounts were NOT readily available, so stop lying.

    I've read your posts. You don't make an argument supported by anything. You just say getting to 58 by boost is an advantage. You don't; explain how or why it is. In fact you flat out refuse to do it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You are not describing the scenario I'm arguing at all.

    I'm talking solely about boosting a character to 58 through Blizz store. Not paying players to carry you through content.
    Leveling to 58 takes time and effort. Therefore, paying to skip that time and effort is an advantage. The fact that you can't see that is actually blowing my mind.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Leveling to 58 takes time and effort. Therefore, paying to skip that time and effort is an advantage. The fact that you can't see that is actually blowing my mind.
    Ahhh i see what the problem is, you don't know what the fuck advantage means.

    I'll ask one last time, how is that an advantage?
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Ahhh i see what the problem is, you don't know what the fuck advantage means.

    I'll ask one last time, how is that an advantage?
    Advantage: any state, circumstance, opportunity, or means specially favorable to success, interest, or any desired end

    Paying to skip large swaths of content and jumping straight into the recent expansion and therefore having a headstart in jumping into endgame content is a huge advantage over a player who isn't spending $60 and has to level all the way to 58 and then finally start the new expansion then begin working towards endgame content.

    This is the last time I'm repeating myself. If you ask the same nonsense again, I will not be responding. Actually read what I'm posting rather than picking and choosing then getting hostile.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    anything suggesting that the Blizzard store is Pay to Win.

    I mean, we all know a matching Tmog boosts DPS by 10%, and a badass pet boosts it another 10%.

    Kappa
    Depends on what you define as winning. Not everyone in WoW is after raiding in new content.
    There are MANY people who just farm xmog.
    Much less people would have an issue with store mounts if they were not that unique. It is OK to sell a different colored invincible, it is not OK to have unique mounts in the shop, that you cannot obtain ingame, after you have paid for the game and playing a sub to play.

  14. #274
    It amuses me that you people actually believe that reaching level cap = winning

    LOL

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanu View Post
    that wanting quality of life changes and accessibility makes you 'lazy' and that you have to work for trivial yet time consuming bs
    MMOs are grinds at the end. If you take that away, WoD happens imo.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Advantage: any state, circumstance, opportunity, or means specially favorable to success, interest, or any desired end

    Paying to skip large swaths of content and jumping straight into the recent expansion and therefore having a headstart in jumping into endgame content is a huge advantage over a player who isn't spending $60 and has to level all the way to 58 and then finally start the new expansion then begin working towards endgame content.

    This is the last time I'm repeating myself. If you ask the same nonsense again, I will not be responding. Actually read what I'm posting rather than picking and choosing then getting hostile.
    You keep stating the same thing over and over and over all while thinking it is an explanation. You are also ignoring every logical point I've made.

    1. I've shown you it is NOT an advantage by explaining a person who boosts a character likely will play that toon worse than a person that levels and will also likely have worse gear and less gold.
    2. There's no competition in leveling. So getting to "endgame' first is not an advantage. Its not even an achievement. Its literally nothing but a benchmark you fucking made up. For fuck's sake, buying the game before you, gives me the same advantage you're claiming a boost gives. Did the act of simply purchasing the game make it a pay to win? Of course not.
    3. I've explained that wow has gone percentage based, so different levels don't actually have a noticeable difference until you get gear, which you have to earn in endgame content no matter if you boosted or not.
    4. If paying for a boost is an advantage, then so is paying for a mount.....for the exact same reasons.
    5. I've given you examples of things that would count as an advantage and leveling faster isn't one of them.
    6. The only thing WoW does that comes close to pay for win, is game time tokens, since they can be sold for gold. that's it, but gold has been mostly trivialized at this point.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  17. #277
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    MMOs are grinds at the end. If you take that away, WoD happens imo.
    Maybe they are, but for some reason I didn't find e.g. BC or WotLK to be as tediously grindy as early Legion or pre-8.3 BfA (farming essences /puke). Or getting your leggos in SL and upgrading them... !@#$ that @$%&
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by froschhure View Post
    Mythic raider getting hurt over wf /tf
    Quickly, Collect them tears
    WoW has already random loot that is on a weekly lockout, there is no need for another layer of randomness.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Maybe they are, but for some reason I didn't find e.g. BC or WotLK to be as tediously grindy as early Legion or pre-8.3 BfA (farming essences /puke). Or getting your leggos in SL and upgrading them... !@#$ that @$%&
    Because the mindset changed for many of us.
    In TBC and WOTLK there was mystery, wonder.
    Now everything is a spreadsheet.

    I think that is quite a big deal when it comes to how "grindy" a game feels.

    "I wonder what items drop in heroic dungeons/kara once I get in there" vs. "I need to farm soul ash for 4 weeks to get x BiS leggo". Atleast that is how it was for me.

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by froschhure View Post
    Mythic raider getting hurt over wf /tf
    Quickly, Collect them tears
    As a Mythic raider I agree with this actually. We get the best loot overall in the game, it doesn't hurt us in any way if little Jimmy gets a single nice item. We cried for years about something that was good for everyone else. It's okay if sometimes things in this game don't cater to us.
    AchaeaKoralin - Are you still out there?| retired.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    You keep stating the same thing over and over and over all while thinking it is an explanation. You are also ignoring every logical point I've made.

    1. I've shown you it is NOT an advantage by explaining a person who boosts a character likely will play that toon worse than a person that levels and will also likely have worse gear and less gold.
    2. There's no competition in leveling. So getting to "endgame' first is not an advantage. Its not even an achievement. Its literally nothing but a benchmark you fucking made up. For fuck's sake, buying the game before you, gives me the same advantage you're claiming a boost gives. Did the act of simply purchasing the game make it a pay to win? Of course not.
    3. I've explained that wow has gone percentage based, so different levels don't actually have a noticeable difference until you get gear, which you have to earn in endgame content no matter if you boosted or not.
    4. If paying for a boost is an advantage, then so is paying for a mount.....for the exact same reasons.
    5. I've given you examples of things that would count as an advantage and leveling faster isn't one of them.
    6. The only thing WoW does that comes close to pay for win, is game time tokens, since they can be sold for gold. that's it, but gold has been mostly trivialized at this point.
    I've explained how what you're saying is wrong. Your comments about it not being an advantage is wrong and shows you don't know what an advantage is. Getting to endgame IS competition because of things like the Hall of Fame. The fact that you're saying that getting to max level quicker by paying makes me think you don't even play the game.

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