Page 16 of 19 FirstFirst ...
6
14
15
16
17
18
... LastLast
  1. #301
    Pay 2 win is a shit term that applies to very specific games (where you literally pay the devs for an advantage in game). But wow is a nebulous grey area. Paying for carries is weird. Its SUPER MMO in that you have to give a player a bunch of gold for said carry (or maybe even real life currency you naughty boost sites that have been around since my bestie decided that he hated leveling in vanilla and paid a site to boost him to 60 - who then jacked his card about 2 years later). This isnt Pay2win per se, you gain no advantage over the hardcore playerbase. But its pay to something. Pay2Boost? Kinda feels too limiting. Pay2advantage... we're kind of getting closer... I genuinely dont know what this is. It sucks though. But i suck, so i want all sucky players to solidarnosci with me.

    It still feels like its cheating a bit though. I dont know how to describe it. And im in awe at devs who have put me in this position of confusion. I mean, its basically gaining an in-game advantage, right? We know that, right? They are using real world money to buy tokens converting to in game gold, paid into balances used for blizzard credit... you cant transfer this into cash in any way? Its just blizzard shop bs? Theres no chargeback system or balance refund available? Its like a store discount system? Honestly, i havent looked into the loopholes. So im assuming that the only way to transfer that blizzard balance is through blizzard products. So its not... pay2win. But its super weird (or super nebulous), right? Its pay2Kotics3rdyacht?

    Let me simplify it: Pay2win: You give the devs direct cash. You get an in-game advantage.
    Pay2Kotic: You buy a token (giving the devs direct cash), someone buys the token, you get an in game currency, you then use that currency in the in game market to buy a carry, that garners you an advantage (we've satisfied half the argument, well, maybe two thirds, since blizzard also have their cash, but now we have a middle-man)). That person then needs to turn that in game currency into actual real direct material cash. If they can do this, the loop is complete. If they cant, despite everyone (you, blizzard and the middle man garnering an explicit advantage) its not pay2win, but pay2kotic. Which is pay2win with a single extra step. But also not, because the middle man cant redeem that service into physical payment...

    Bernie sanders needs to be on this (he doesnt). But what advantage in or out of game are the third party garnering from this shoddy deal? Then we can understand what this even is, (then we can name it and cast it back into hell where it belongs).
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-03-30 at 12:35 PM. Reason: nebulosity and demonology

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrim View Post
    The thing that pisses me off the most is the typical WoW-player syndrome:

    "My class is so complicated yet sucks, while the rest are overpowered and piss easy!"

    Yeah, right...

    And what's worse - good luck explaining to these people how they lack enough experience and knowledge to properly judge classes. Because in their own eyes, they are the wunderkinds of WoW.
    As somebody who mains a Havoc DH since Legion, I feel this so much it hurts.

  3. #303
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Epic Premium
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    45,577
    This thread is about opinions/arguments that annoy people, not specifically about boosting. It's fine for that to be someone choice of annoying opinion, but let's drop the rolling and derailing argument about whether boosting constitutes Pay-to-Win in WoW.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  4. #304
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Strasbourg
    Posts
    1,439

    Red face

    Perhaps I'll look a little more "freaky" for this thread in general, but still... "characters' appearance can be on toggle in graphics settings - it's just cosmetics and nobody really cares about it". Those who're more or less familiar with my work here, knows what this all is about
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2021-03-30 at 04:15 PM.
    __---=== IMHO(+cg) and MORE |"links-inside" ===---__

    __---=== PM me WHERE if I'm unnecessarily "notifying" you ===---__

  5. #305
    X is fine because people will do it anyway unless Blizzard enforces their rule, which they won't.

    This is particularly applicable to the WoW Token. It's a friggin' disaster, people are buying gold then buying boosts and the communities are many of them likely flipping that gold for money to keep operations going.

    The whole thing should be stopped immediately, but it just isn't happening.

  6. #306
    Then on topic, i really hate 'if you dont raid you dont need the gear'.

    And im going to put forward a three pronged attack to explain it.

    Prong 1: Why does the end boss in any expansion drop gear? Cheap point, ill grant you, but the counterargument is this: "to reward you for beating the content". So necessity isnt the only factor in attributing gear? Rewards in themselves are important too?
    Prong 2: Why does the vault even exist? Why do we have another complicated matrix to balance around? Ipso facto you defeated said boss. Why are you now upon reset being granted an item way (10+ilvls) above your current gear level? So you can 'progress'? But what if you're satisfied with that progression? What if you DONT WANT TO raid mythic? what if you're happy farming keys at 10-15 because you like the dungeons and are happy with your heroic denathrius kill. Has the game asked you? Yet still you get a massive gear reward "you dont need!". I guess its not just reward but also the POSSIBILITY you might want to CONSIDER (you dont have to) progressing that drives loot values in game? So its not just a reward in itself, but also a means to encourage you (not 'compel you') to push forward. Im not seeing much necessity thus far.
    Prong 3: What if this game isnt just designed around the idea that there are 4 little islands where the playerbase exclusively quarantines themselves? And what IF gear functions ALSO (on top of the other two propositions) to give you a crutch (diminishing as you scale the ladder like a tax bracket), incentivising you to follow the path DESIGNED by the devs? "What if gear functions as an INCENTIVE to encourage players to try their hand at content they KNOW they suck at but with some stabilisers (or a crutch), may feel less anxious about their low performance? (ie. gear as an incentive to progress).

    What if gear isnt just about necessity, but also a vehicle to both reward and encourage you to step beyond your self contained boundaries? I mean, you dont have to, but it gives you the option... the key word there, by the way is BOTH. Because thats the literal point of gear; to both reward you AND encourage you.

    What you people are advocating is multiple gear systems with non interconnected progression systems. You are literally advocating for a game where mythic plus, pvp, raiding, and world game have their own independent progression paths and own independent, non-connected gearing systems. Thats cool, i suppose, but its not wow and has never been wow. But maybe its exactly the game the single player mmo truly needs? If you want that, and have thought it through, im on your side. But if you want a single progression system (with raiding/arena king of the hill) and are telling people about 'necessity', I dont think you really understand what youre advocating for.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-03-30 at 11:52 PM. Reason: Necessity

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Snufflupagus View Post
    Look it up, ya might learn something
    Oh i know what false equivalence is. I just haven't seen the post your referencing.
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Then on topic, i really hate 'if you dont raid you dont need the gear'.

    And im going to put forward a three pronged attack to explain it.

    Prong 1: Why does the end boss in any expansion drop gear? Cheap point, ill grant you, but the counterargument is this: "to reward you for beating the content". So necessity isnt the only factor in attributing gear? Rewards in themselves are important too?
    Prong 2: Why does the vault even exist? Why do we have another complicated matrix to balance around? Ipso facto you defeated said boss. Why are you now upon reset being granted an item way (10+ilvls) above your current gear level? So you can 'progress'? But what if you're satisfied with that progression? What if you DONT WANT TO raid mythic? what if you're happy farming keys at 10-15 because you like the dungeons and are happy with your heroic denathrius kill. Has the game asked you? Yet still you get your dumb reward. I guess its not just reward but also the POSSIBILITY you might want to CONSIDER progressing that drives loot values in game? So its not just a reward in itself, but also a means to encourage you to push forward. Im not seeing much necessity thus far.
    Prong 3: What if... i mean, me personally, im tier 5 casual, but WHAT IF this game isnt just designed around the idea that there are 4 little islands where the playerbase exclusively quarantines themselves, but is instead built on a progression system accepting the idea that to be good at something you probably need to do it. And what IF gear functions ALSO (on top of the other two propositions) to give you a crutch (diminishing as you scale the ladder like a tax bracket), incentivising you to follow the path DESIGNED by the er... designers? What if gear functions as an INCENTIVE to encourage players to try their hand at content they KNOW they suck at but with some stabilisers (or a crutch), may feel less judged by their low performance?

    What if gear isnt just about staying in your dumb lane in your dumb island game, but actually a vehicle to reward, encourage, and help you (crutch) to progress beyond your self-contained limits onto the next step of the ladder? What if gear isnt just a mathematical system with a very high margin of failure to help you beat an enrage timer? What if gear functions on multiple levels (physical and psychological) to encourage players to step out of their comfort zone? What if (as point 1) its just a reward for doing the content? What if its just a way to keep you enjoying, immersing and participating in the game (sub) and not a straight jacket reminding you (prog) of your absolute limits in game?

    What if gear isnt just about necessity, but also a vehicle to both reward and encourage you to step beyond your self contained boundaries? I mean, you dont have to, but it gives you the option... the key word there, by the way is BOTH. Because thats the literal point of gear; to both reward you AND encourage you. Its built into it.

    What you people are advocating is multiple gear systems with non interactive progression systems. You are literally advocating for a game where mythic plus, pvp, raiding, and world game has their own independent progression path. If you want that though, and have thought it through, im on your side. But if you want a single progression system and are telling people about 'necessity', I dont think you understand what youre actually advocating for.
    There is nothing stopping you from getting the gear tho except yourself. Its not as if you log on and the game tells you that your character specifically can go get fucked. You yourself are locking yourself out of it.

    The game was originally raid or die. Then pvp system was introduced and improved upon to where it is now. Then m+ was added as yet another alternative gear path. All 3 giving at least 226 ilvl rewards depending on how far you progress. Each getting progressively harder. For "casuals" and alts they gave u the opportunity to catch up to normal raid ilvl within like a week or less. Literally only 2 difficulties behind the top. This gear is way over inflated in the ilvl it gives and the speed in which you can acquire it. But for some reason, certain "casuals" decide this is where they stop increasing their "difficulty", then complain that their gear stops here too. Why is that?

  9. #309
    Any opinion that indicates WoW can return to its former glory in subs. It is over a decade old game on an ancient engine. The fact it has lasted this long is mind blowing to me.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    There's a reason that WoWs competitors grows substantially in times like these. The elitists who are always catered to in some form tells the casuals to quit, so they do. A lot of them don't come back.

    Blizzard are working really hard on making sure that WoW becomes Wildstar.

    Did you just compare WoW to Wildstar?? Ummmmmmm. ok
    Be careful who you chat it up with here on these forums. If you are NOT for WoW and about WoW, people will report whatever you say and get you banned

  11. #311
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    10,842
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggressive View Post
    Did you just compare WoW to Wildstar?? Ummmmmmm. ok
    Wildstar's mindset was similar, very similar, DISTURBINGLY similar to SL's. Just saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Wildstar's mindset was similar, very similar, DISTURBINGLY similar to SL's. Just saying.
    I mean... How is wow not more casual friendly now than ever before? When was it more casual friendly? Since m+ casuals can get gear way above their difficulty once a week and they don't even need to grind like they had to in WotLK to get those daily two marks of frost for 6 months every day. Since SL they don't even have to grind AP to get power and can do raid in 4 difficulties.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    X is fine because people will do it anyway unless Blizzard enforces their rule, which they won't.

    This is particularly applicable to the WoW Token. It's a friggin' disaster, people are buying gold then buying boosts and the communities are many of them likely flipping that gold for money to keep operations going.

    The whole thing should be stopped immediately, but it just isn't happening.
    The people who are buying boosts are not using the WoW token for gold. It's okay to dislike the token for whatever imaginary insecurities you have about it but constructing flimsy conspiracy theories to support your coping mechanicsm is hardly productive.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Wildstar's mindset was similar, very similar, DISTURBINGLY similar to SL's. Just saying.
    A more incorrect collection of words has never been strung together. Congratulations, I guess?

  14. #314
    That casual is synonomous with bad. I know some awful no lifer players, and some amazing players that only play a few hours a week.
    RETH

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    The people who are buying boosts are not using the WoW token for gold. It's okay to dislike the token for whatever imaginary insecurities you have about it but constructing flimsy conspiracy theories to support your coping mechanicsm is hardly productive.
    I’ve bought WoW tokens so that I can afford glory run achieves. I have friends that have bought WoW tokens for similar, in fact I don’t think I know anyone that’s bought a boost that’s done it with their own gold.

    Obviously plenty farm the gold, but to say that nobody buys the tokens for it, especially with such conviction, is nuts.
    Last edited by DechCJC; 2021-03-30 at 02:27 PM.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    I’ve bought WoW tokens so that I can afford glory run achieves. I have friends that have bought WoW tokens for similar, in fact I don’t think I know anyone that’s bought a boost that’s done it with their own gold.

    Obviously plenty farm the gold, but to say that nobody buys the tokens for it, especially with such conviction, is nuts.
    Nice anecdote.

    Nobody gives a shit if you spend 100k on a token then buy some meaningless achievement. Most gear boosts (which is what the dude I quoted was referring to) are millions of gold. If you're buying millions of gold through the WoW token instead of the plethora of *ahem* more affordable alternatives then you simply have far more money than you do wit. The vast majority of these boosts are not paid for by gold obtained through WoW tokens. (I'd wager most of it is through RMT that's conveniently converted to gold through one of the dozens of "boosting communities.")

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Nice anecdote.

    Nobody gives a shit if you spend 100k on a token then buy some meaningless achievement. Most gear boosts (which is what the dude I quoted was referring to) are millions of gold. If you're buying millions of gold through the WoW token instead of the plethora of *ahem* more affordable alternatives then you simply have far more money than you do wit. The vast majority of these boosts are not paid for by gold obtained through WoW tokens. (I'd wager most of it is through RMT that's conveniently converted to gold through one of the dozens of "boosting communities.")
    Edit

    Just saw the Mod comment, won’t be discussing it further.
    Last edited by DechCJC; 2021-03-30 at 03:45 PM.

  18. #318
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    10,842
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    A more incorrect collection of words has never been strung together. Congratulations, I guess?
    Both games take a huge dump on casual players, and are (or were, in the case of Wildstar) more raid or die than even freaking Vanilla. But denial is totally a thing, I can't really blame you.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  19. #319
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Somewhere where canon still exists
    Posts
    9,476
    That "WoW isn't a MMORPG anymore" opinion

    Oh and the "Tinker and Engineer profession" are the same argument....I guess it's too hard for some people understand a combat class would be different from a crafting profession.

  20. #320
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    10,842
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    The vast majority of these boosts are not paid for by gold obtained through WoW tokens.
    Source: my ass.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •