What's Wrong with Simple Systems Expansion?

[Lurker1]

Since Legion, Blizz has been trying to add complex systems to the game that will last for an expansion and then throw it away.

This somehow worked for Legion as the Artifact system wasn't that complicated tbh.

But was a nightmare in BfA, we had the initial system, a new system in the first patch, a third system in the second patch, then there was the cloak at the end.

These systems over complicate the game, and delay it in a lot of ways, tuning them is another story.

Why can't we have an expansion like Wrath or BC or even Cata? they didn't have much complicated systems, yet they had more zones, raids, dungeons, the story was even better!

Once people get geared think wod they just raid log off.

[infinitemeridian]

What they should do is expand on things that have been tried and true.

Why not innovate on raids / dungeons / m+? Those are pretty on rails now. WQ 2.0? A new mount system? Profession revamp (And not just the stupid "iterations" they go through every expac where they still end up useless 90% of the time)?

The problem isn't systems and complexity. Those are needed. It's that they add them from the ground-up every expac and they never got improved on.

[Alanar]

M+ was Legion, which was only 2 expansions ago. Transmog was Cata, ~10 years ago.

Yea but, I count m+ same as rated pvp. Just an extension of an excisting feature. Transmog was a single feature that actually was a hit.

We have never seen anything like that as a stand alone feature afther that. Transmog was not even a expansion core feature, but something that got added midthrough.

Mage tower was close, but it was just one boss per spec and honestly altho fun for that time, if extended it would just look like a cooler version of brawling. Which is already a 1v1 and even group vs boss options. The arena it self and the wait time was never fun either.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem isn't systems and complexity. Those are needed. It's that they add them from the ground-up every expac and they never got improved on.

It is a problem when you have multiple systems on top of each other that feel hollow, pointless and add no new gameplay. To me it sounds so much better when you have 1 or 2 strong features that they can build upon and extend and even continue with after the expansion. Sure they can innovate on excisting features, but why is that not a standard thing every expansion?

Conduits, soulbinds, mission tables.. I mean why do we even have those? they are fire and forget, there is no real gameplay there and most of the stuff is gated behind a resource that is realy sparse. Wanting to keep players subbed is something, but not like this.

[Very rare pepe]

Blizzard feel they need to innovate with each new expansion, they don't, sunk cost has such a good hold on most of the playerbase, all they need to do is give out steady, good and fun content. No need for new systems every expansion.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Yet they make more money of the game than they used to before, so why can't they dedicate more developers to other stuff too?

And you see no correlation between them changing the systems per expansion and making more money than ever before...?

Because they most certainly do. There's your answer as to what's wrong with "simple systems expansions". They want people to always have a reason to remain subbed. That doesn't happen if it's raid-or-die and people can easily raid-log.

Simple enough.

[Redroniksre]

The problem with all those systems isn't only that it really sucks when you lose them, but also chances are that creating, testing and balance all those systems represents a huge overhead in development time. For example, SL had a fairly long beta (at least compared with BfA), and an appreciable amount of that time was dedicated to covenants/soulbinds/leggos shenanigans. I wonder what could devs have done with all that time instead - unless, of course, that the people in charge of all those systems cannot work anywhere else within the company.

I mean it is hard to say, you would most likely just get more systems in their place. Dungeons/Raids/Zones are handled by Encounter/Quest/Environment designers, which would of had only little to do with those systems so you wouldn't be seeing more of that.

[Wermys]

First AP/Azerite should NOT effect any ability. That is the first problem. Tying this in to a power gain of the character makes it so people who have alts just look at this and go fuck that I will wait for the next tier. That causes people to NOT want to start up mid tier or expansion.

What BC, Wrath and MOP did well was tie the badge system to gaining gear. That gear enabled people coming into the game to gear up and have an upgrade path independent of what they earned in dungeons raids etc. So that your character was always on a path of controlled progression. When they removed the ability to do this and instead tied it to gaining power over a single ability or weapon they essentially forced progression paths. Further they implemented the "legendary" item system and it was further RNG based and turned off a lot of people.

What they need to do is this. Reintroduce tier items with the ability to purchase them with badges. Further they need to get rid of the empower system they have in place. Nuke it burn it to the ground and destroy it to never again pop up. Further what they need to do is introduce a Mythic badge system to encourage people to run those to get gear but if you run a lesser key mythics you get less badges per week but you STILL have access to that gear it will just require you to grind it out longer. So that mythic dungeon gear is obtainable even running a lower key but it is STILL the same gear just takes longer to get. Further item drops from different expansion tiers need to actually matter. There should always be 2-3 items that you can carry over that are actually going to remain in the latest tier of the game. Anyways there is a reason I don't play retail anymore and its because I can't be bothered to do the current systems and the way the different classes play. They really should replace whoever came up with these systems starting in WOD which is where they all originates from and where WOW got well, shitty.

[intenz]

It feels like there is nothing to do because they killed the open world. That seems kinda obvious to me. In TBC I spent most of my time farming open world, same in wrath. I was either in arena or farming. This was even more true in vanilla, we spent most of our time farming in the open world. No one farms in WoW, it's the only "MMORPG" where you can't farm because it isn't worth the time investment. It's better to do a daily calling and use that money to buy mats farmed by botters. It doesn't feel like a MMO at all, due to sharding and how everything is instanced. It's like a lobby game, and lobby games are no fun without friends.

All I want is to have farming back and an open world that doesn't feel like a contrived theme park. I want them to stop instantly nerfing any decent farm spots, fix professions so they're profitable again, and get players back out exploring the world. Like, isn't this really obvious to anyone else? You can all argue about systems all you want but they aren't what made the game fun and you're ignoring the elephant in the room.

[Masternap]

Because then people would stop playing just as quickly as they did stop playing Classic.

[iosdeveloper]

cuz such decisions are made in a meeting room, where it's not the best idea that wins, but one that sounds best
ofc a grindy retention-system sounds cooler to investors, than "new zones, new dungeons, new quests'

come to think of it, these grindy-systems are really working - it has to be a bit harder to quit, since you've invested time in current grind

[Resheph]

cuz such decisions are made in a meeting room, where it's not the best idea that wins, but one that sounds best
ofc a grindy retention-system sounds cooler to investors, than "new zones, new dungeons, new quests'

come to think of it, these grindy-systems are really working - it has to be a bit harder to quit, since you've invested time in current grind

You clearly know nothing about real life game development in general and specifically how things go at Blizzard.
For starters, the whole business world runs on "meeting rooms". Are many meetings a waste of time? Sure. But that does not mean all of them are, or that it's not the best system to get knowledgeable people together with decision makers to talk through policy.

What you fail to realize is that the main decisions of the game are not made in isolated meetings, but as part of a long, long process of meetings, work groups, reports and tests. And, crucially, the amount of data that Blizzard is collecting ans has a big staff analyzing helps them to guide these decisions based on what players really do.

So, shocking as it might be to you, but your opinions on the game are made insignificant by the data of millions of people playing it. They can measure all kinds of engagement and will have the historic data to see the effects of every little or big change they make.
And that is driving their design, not some mainly former players talking shit on some fan forum.

[Kokolums]

We don't just need *systems*, we need systems that incorporate heavy social interaction. That's why I believe the solution is "guild leagues" for raiding. You compete with rival guilds in your league to league-first raid boss kills and the like. Notifications can go out league-wide for boss wipes and boss kills, including number of attempts and % thru the encounter. implement a league-chat where people can talk about the league.

[czarek]

Actually we dont have must to grind system in here. Anima is just cosmetics. Renown is capped (should be capped acc wide lol). Soul ash? Ive made lego no need to farm it further.

[LordTakeo]

Idk... I enjoy the systems we have now. Legendaries make for fun gear swapping depending on boss/content like end-Legion Legendaries.
Covenants, while very restrictive, have fun powers too.
Soulbinds are neat per content, but I agree, if the covenant powers were just another talent tree choice, it would have fit far better.

I like it that they gave us these system asap, and promised not to add more during the expansion, as that was tbh the annoying part about them. If you returned after a few months, you were completely lost and behind, take Legions Argus mini soulbind, or essences from bfa.

If the systems atleast stay consistent this time around, I have no problem with them.

[rowaasr13]

Why not? More means of alternative progression, so if you tried of just one basic - gear treadmill, you can work on another and then another? Yes, please, I'd like to have more of that. The only thing I hate is losing access to everything at end of expansion like they did with Legion artifact or by breaking MoP/WoD questline. Let it accumulate and work at least in old content as HoA does. At least I can have fun blasting stuff in old raids and timewalking with all those overpowered toys at once. Or just replay questline if I want to see it again.

[Hastis]

Its all because they deleted talents, i rly like sometimes give myself +3 dmg for x spell or something like that you work towards but systems like that should have an end

[Kumorii]

cuz such decisions are made in a meeting room, where it's not the best idea that wins, but one that sounds best
ofc a grindy retention-system sounds cooler to investors, than "new zones, new dungeons, new quests'

come to think of it, these grindy-systems are really working - it has to be a bit harder to quit, since you've invested time in current grind

? Sounds like blizzard is doing a good job then if they go by with which idea sounds best... not sure how else you can determine good ideas when brainstorming unless you go by ideas that sound good.

- - - Updated - - -

What they should do is expand on things that have been tried and true.

Why not innovate on raids / dungeons / m+? Those are pretty on rails now. WQ 2.0? A new mount system? Profession revamp (And not just the stupid "iterations" they go through every expac where they still end up useless 90% of the time)?

The problem isn't systems and complexity. Those are needed. It's that they add them from the ground-up every expac and they never got improved on.

Inc "Waaaah why did they change X and ruin it?". Raids is a good example because they get more and more bold on mechanics and such and try new things constantly. Some now complain they are too complex for the sake of complexity and want simpler fights.

[Soon-TM]

Raids is a good example because they get more and more bold on mechanics and such and try new things constantly. Some now complain they are too complex for the sake of complexity and want simpler fights.

Raids are pretty much the only of them getting "bolder". So bold that they are becoming more and more boring as time goes by, 23498561986 different, overlapping mechanics per boss /yawn

[Zorachus]

New game systems every expansion lately, is getting maddening. Blizzard just stop this already, Jesus guys.

Legion:
Artifact weapon, AP grind, Legnedaries, Netherlight Crucible, etc...

BfA;
Azerite gear, Azerite grind, Essences, Corruption gear, Cloak, etc...

Shadowlands:
Covenant gear, Anima grind, Soulbinds, Soul Ash grind, Legendaries, etc...


Holy cow Blizzard, stop this already. You develop a new expansion with all these new game systems, and then the very next expansion you toss all this stuff in the garbage, and create brand new systems again for the new expansion, and then 2 years later, throw it all away and start over. WTF, we don't need these crap systems in WoW.

Or if you are going to have it, keep the good stuff the player base likes, and revise it and continue it through the next expansion, don't throw it away and build all new systems from the ground up, there's just no point.

[VinceVega]

I don't really see shadowlands as a system heavy expansion.
Conduits just come while playing. Renown is laughable easy to farm from next to EVERY content there is.

And Leggos.... meh... not much behind it either.

Raid, PvP, Dungeons are actually fun. So i do that. Raidlogging and the occasional mythic+. Quite allright with that tbh right now. I don't think we will get more than MAYBE a .2 patch with nothing but story followups and the then the next expansion in 2023 after a year of nothing at al in 2022.

There are ZERO mandatory grinds in SL. Not a sinlge one. Soul ash does not really count as a grind as you only have to do it a few times and forget about it if you don't like it.

The problem is: They did not really upped the story content. What actually happend in SL? We went there. We got to know a few people. Main story of the expansion i.e. jailor had nothing at all. Substories like the moonwarrior is also dripfeeded and there is still no resolution. Kaelthas and Kelthuzad are back... ok... what happens with them? One gets snatched one gets freed.... Lady Vashj gets wasted. Ysera acts as a flying taxi.
The only thing that happend that is of any consequence is uthers misstep and redemption and Anduins domination. And even here we got a few storysparce ingame "cinematics" with a jump cut to him getting that one key from the archon.

The actuall best story in the game right now is the development of the Kyrians. Explaining WHY they give up on their memories and them not knowing what to do with the arbiter gone (remember her? Yeah... she is also... there...)