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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by KSM899 View Post
    Why can't we have an expansion like Wrath or BC or even Cata? they didn't have much complicated systems, yet they had more zones, raids, dungeons, the story was even better!
    Becouse only expansion out of those 3 only TBC had no content draught. Do you want to know why Blizzard start adding this new systems? Becouse of WoD. Game no longer could sustain any longetivity due to Blizzard push after acessability and covinience. Game content start being consumed so fast that Blizz couldnt keep up anymore. And players on the forums cryed "please give us more content, something to do,etc.." But Blizzard isnt cappable of creating enough content with such high acessability and covinience. Players will end up consuming it always faster then Blizzard is able to create. So only asnwer was to add new alternative way of progression.

    COVINIENCE AND ACESSABILITY made playerbase burn trough wow content. TBC or Vannila had no LFG, LFR, no difficulty levels, no all the covinience of current game so content took way more time to consume than now thats why old expansions didnt need these systems.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Becouse only expansion out of those 3 only TBC had no content draught. Do you want to know why Blizzard start adding this new systems? Becouse of WoD. Game no longer could sustain any longetivity due to Blizzard push after acessability and covinience. Game content start being consumed so fast that Blizz couldnt keep up anymore. And players on the forums cryed "please give us more content, something to do,etc.." But Blizzard isnt cappable of creating enough content with such high acessability and covinience. Players will end up consuming it always faster then Blizzard is able to create. So only asnwer was to add new alternative way of progression.

    COVINIENCE AND ACESSABILITY made playerbase burn trough wow content. TBC or Vannila had no LFG, LFR, no difficulty levels, no all the covinience of current game so content took way more time to consume than now thats why old expansions didnt need these systems.
    TBC though had a MOUNTAIN of content at launch. Didn't we get T4 and 5 AND Hyjal all available at launch? And like 15 dungeons or something? I mean just leveling and gearing up for T4, then T4, then T5 took months and months. So even if it did have the accessibility stuff it would still have lasted so long.

    But agree though, they end up creating this cycle where each raid consumes the prior. Each patch brings catch-up in Retail so there's no reason to do the prior raid content. Whereas in TBC/Vanilla there was always a raid treadmill. New guilds/players always had to push through MC and then BWL, there was no way around that. And this did start in TBC where they added badge gear that was extremely strong later on in the expansion. But even then you'd run Gruul for DST or T5 for specific gear pieces that were super strong even in T6. Plus you'd have to get people attuned and stuff, so you always had a reason to run that old stuff.

    On retail, there are so many versions of each raid that there's no reason to run old raids once the new one comes out. The gear scaling is ridiculous and that's part of why PVP is so dead right now. New players with 25k hp get absolutely stomped. Gear scaling is out of control for whatever reason, and that happened in older expansions too, but not in a single raid tier. Like full MC gear didn't do some crazy DPS increase that you couldn't get outside of raids from dungeon blues and crafted stuff.
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  3. #123
    A simple system expansion would never work..
    First of all " Here is new land, with X raids and Y dungeons" Does not bring people back.

    Massive features like Torgcast, or faction war.

    If blizzard just make 10.0 " The big bad light lords" - Here is 2 minor raids and 1 Raid for X.0, And 11 Dungeons, with 6 zones.
    that does nothing.

  4. #124
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post

    At one point i thought they might try an entirely new IP or an entirely new MMO based in another one of their IP's - Diablo or Starcraft being the obvious ones. But once we saw what D3 was like, with all the multiplayer aspects, i ruled that out. And once we all saw what happened to project Titan, which we all know became HOTS, i ruled it out entirely. What i can NEVER see them doing is WoW:2 - their expansion system is already well established and in place, and if they wanted to do something drastic, such as an entirely new graphics engine, and entirely new art style, new class system, new combat system etc etc etc, there is absolutely nothing stopping them doing that in an expansion.

    Secondly, the attachment players have to their accounts and its characters, their mains, their alts, their mounts, transmog, achievements - the results of their time invested, is far too strong to ignore, and creating "wow:2" would destroy all of that. The counter argument i see with this? "oh, well obviously you could carry your characters over to WoW:2, thats just obvious!" - oh, you mean.........[drum roll].......EXACTLY like an expansion?
    Yes...very much in agreement here

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Weeps View Post
    For me...

    I’d love it if each expansion gave a new spell or two to add to the rotation. You can prune spells later on, spells that would minimize dot/hot upkeep etc but continuously add something that makes you stronger or more versatile.
    You just described exactly what Shadowlands does.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    You just described exactly what Shadowlands does.
    It goes away after Shadowlands. Which is not what I want. I want things to be permanent as you develop.

  7. #127
    I think SL is a good expansion and gives a proper balance between working for your gear, and not being forced to grind something day in and out.

    My only grief would be that M+ ilvl drops are kinda low regarding their difficulty and compared to heroic raiding, which you can basically PUG. And then you kinda hit a ceiling, that you can only breach by waiting for a week to upgrade your item once through the vault if you're lucky to get what you need.

    Of course you could always try mythic raiding but even there you're out of luck if the item you need doesn't drop there. Like proper crit & haste hands for frost mages.

    If they could raise +15 drops to 213 at least, that would be plenty enough to fix basically all problems I have with this expansion.

  8. #128
    I don't care if a system is simple or complex. I don't care if there's 1, 2 or 17 systems. I don't care about whether the systems we have are built upon or replaced with every other patch.

    All I care about is whether or not the systems are fun. Covenants/Soulbinds/Conduits aren't fun. The Maw isn't fun. Legendaries are laughably unfun. Valor farming isn't fun. At this point, m+ is no longer fun. Even raiding isn't really fun anymore considering how much you have to put into it if you wanna be done with it within less than 4 months. The game is simply less fun than it was a couple of years ago. Not because it's more or less complex, not because it's more or less intricate, not because there's more or fewer systems, solely due to the systems we're having being awfully uninspired, boring, stupidly unbalanced, stupidly unflexible, stupidly gated and simply not fun.

    A simple single extra talent row per spec in MoP was more fun than like 90% of the most recent systems we got. Can't wait for 9.1 to give us... another oneshot Torghast power that makes our autohits hit for 30000% more damage. Or the new zone being a random timegated worldquest rep grind. Or the new soulbinds/conduits/legs/whatever there's gonna be all to be nothing but *your attacks have a chance to deal 500 extra damage and increase your vers by 200*. Can't wait.

  9. #129
    I don't believe it's a matter of whether or not the systems in a new xpac are complex or simple. The common denominator of the systems in Legion, BFA and Shadowlands is they are all xpac long term synchs. Blizzard designs new xpacs for WOW largely, but not solely based on time synchs. The longer a player is playing WOW, the happier Blizzard is because there's more of a chance they'll purchase a microtransx, continue to pay a sub and it looks better on their quarterly metrics.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Varaben View Post
    TBC though had a MOUNTAIN of content at launch. Didn't we get T4 and 5 AND Hyjal all available at launch? And like 15 dungeons or something? I mean just leveling and gearing up for T4, then T4, then T5 took months and months. So even if it did have the accessibility stuff it would still have lasted so long.

    But agree though, they end up creating this cycle where each raid consumes the prior. Each patch brings catch-up in Retail so there's no reason to do the prior raid content. Whereas in TBC/Vanilla there was always a raid treadmill. New guilds/players always had to push through MC and then BWL, there was no way around that. And this did start in TBC where they added badge gear that was extremely strong later on in the expansion. But even then you'd run Gruul for DST or T5 for specific gear pieces that were super strong even in T6. Plus you'd have to get people attuned and stuff, so you always had a reason to run that old stuff.

    On retail, there are so many versions of each raid that there's no reason to run old raids once the new one comes out. The gear scaling is ridiculous and that's part of why PVP is so dead right now. New players with 25k hp get absolutely stomped. Gear scaling is out of control for whatever reason, and that happened in older expansions too, but not in a single raid tier. Like full MC gear didn't do some crazy DPS increase that you couldn't get outside of raids from dungeon blues and crafted stuff.
    You forgot having to be attuned to all of those though (and not just you, everybody in the raid group had to be attuned)... you couldn't even get into a heroic dungeon until you got the keys from the Quartermasters for being revered or exalted (can't remember which). So while it was all there it was rep-gated/timegated. Loot drops were also insanely smaller and raids were either 10(normal) or 25(heroic)... there was no flex. Add all that up together and flying being locked behind max level and you get content that lasts "forever". Look how people cry behind the current "time-gates", could imagine the uproar if they brought back attunements....

  11. #131
    I think a new class would be enough of a draw if they said they were going maximum with zones / dungeons / raids. 2 raids at launch, 15 dungeons, 8 leveling zones + 2 endgame zones (one is story-heavy ala nighthold, the other is Maw + Argus + Nazjatar).

  12. #132
    Stood in the Fire Mightytasty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaben View Post
    On retail, there are so many versions of each raid that there's no reason to run old raids once the new one comes out. The gear scaling is ridiculous and that's part of why PVP is so dead right now. New players with 25k hp get absolutely stomped. Gear scaling is out of control for whatever reason, and that happened in older expansions too, but not in a single raid tier. Like full MC gear didn't do some crazy DPS increase that you couldn't get outside of raids from dungeon blues and crafted stuff.
    PvP gear was not handled smartly. It should have been modeled after WoD’s dynamic scaling system. There only needs to be 2 tiers of gear: honor and conquest. They added 4 tiers of rating-locked gear on top of the base conquest gear and the inflation got extremely out of control.

  13. #133
    there's no problem, in legion was okay, we are suppose to be OP and its look like the wow ending with big vilan (Sargeras)

    but now, for some reason, they think that after Legion, everything needs to be huge, while I think bfa should have been a much simpler expansion, where we would be weaker after sacrificing so much

    and things like war faction, would only work if it was well worked out and had a lot of development time, trying to start and finish one in the same expansion seems very arrogant, 2 years is very little time,

    Since they do not want to work faction war, giving the deserved time could at least, leave only for the pvp

  14. #134
    The Lightbringer docterfreeze's Avatar
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    In SL they let loot be loot, you'll have to wait til next expansion to let classes be classes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Joe who?

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnificent Madmartegan View Post
    You forgot having to be attuned to all of those though (and not just you, everybody in the raid group had to be attuned)... you couldn't even get into a heroic dungeon until you got the keys from the Quartermasters for being revered or exalted (can't remember which). So while it was all there it was rep-gated/timegated. Loot drops were also insanely smaller and raids were either 10(normal) or 25(heroic)... there was no flex. Add all that up together and flying being locked behind max level and you get content that lasts "forever". Look how people cry behind the current "time-gates", could imagine the uproar if they brought back attunements....
    there was no normal and heroic, it was like vanilla with a single raid size that changed from raid to raid. Then came Wotlk with 10/25 normal and 10/25 heroic. 10 was less forgiving then 25.

    edit : actually, i think 10/25 normal and 10/25heroic came with icc, as I cleary remember ulduar having "hard mode" and not heroic.
    Last edited by jsrfuture; 2021-04-11 at 04:18 AM.

  16. #136
    Legendary! Logwyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSM899 View Post
    Since Legion, Blizz has been trying to add complex systems to the game that will last for an expansion and then throw it away.
    This one and done way have been Blizzard's MO since Vanilla. I wonder if their developers are capable of creating content that spans expansion after expansion at his point. One reason we do not have housing and may never will. The Blizzard development team may not have the ability to pull it off.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Source please. You seem to be very well informed about Blizz's modus operandi, so I'd love if you could share that info

    @OP I agree. I'd play even !@#$ing Cata rather than this jumbled mess of systems that are EXTREMELY annoying to deal with, especially after another overengineered expansion as was BfA.
    Sure. I can give you a source,

    Load up WOW and in the bottom left of the character screen click "menu" and then select "credits". You will see how many specialists they have for every area of the game. Even the artists all have specific areas of the game they are assigned to. Some specifically work on dungeons, others environments, others props. They have seperate individuals f0r sound, animation, seperate game engineers, seperate game engine engineers, systems engineers. There are people who specifically work on dungeon / raid boss encounters (Ion used to be lead encounter designer back in the day).

    The list goes on and on.

    Omar Gonzalez who recently left Blizzard, one of the senior software engineers that worked on the early prototype of Classic WoW, had no role in deciding where the story was going or how much anima a world quest should give...

    Christie Golden didn't help programme the graphics or design the sound for The Maw.

    Ion wasn't doing concept art for Vulpera ahead of BFA.

    They are all completely different jobs.

    I guess that someone like Ion, as game director, has some oversight of many different areas of the game but most others work exclusively on specific and very niche parts of the game.
    Last edited by Paulosio; 2021-04-11 at 05:43 AM.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Mightytasty View Post
    PvP gear was not handled smartly. It should have been modeled after WoD’s dynamic scaling system. There only needs to be 2 tiers of gear: honor and conquest. They added 4 tiers of rating-locked gear on top of the base conquest gear and the inflation got extremely out of control.
    Totally agree, this looked good on paper, but noone realized how gear scaling was going to play out. There's also a weird thing happening with rating deflation where 1800 in 2s is like 2200 or something in BFA. So I think it's just complicated and for whatever reason Blizz can't seem to (or won't) fix it.
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