What's Wrong with Simple Systems Expansion?

[Erous]

Since Legion, Blizz has been trying to add complex systems to the game that will last for an expansion and then throw it away.

This somehow worked for Legion as the Artifact system wasn't that complicated tbh.

But was a nightmare in BfA, we had the initial system, a new system in the first patch, a third system in the second patch, then there was the cloak at the end.

These systems over complicate the game, and delay it in a lot of ways, tuning them is another story.

Why can't we have an expansion like Wrath or BC or even Cata? they didn't have much complicated systems, yet they had more zones, raids, dungeons, the story was even better!

Yet their arguments for shortening talent trees and eliminating spell ranks was something along the lines of "too complex and difficult to understand and manage for the less hardcore and new players." Once the cloak + corruption + neckpiece combos came out, I knew it was all just excuses.

[Niwes]

Absolutely agree, good points.

These new systems every expansion are turning me off from modern WoW. Annoying and pointless to have in the game.

And then the stupid AP or Azerite or Anima farming needed for these systems is like a job and work, not fun.

i would agree to yours and the poster you quoted (@Zorachus) if you just had not forget the main thing:

that „systems“ and „features“ are factor 20 more cheap for Blizz than creating content. since its all itembased, think about, what they really need for it:

- DB entries (items are just database entries)
- simple lua/game UIs (look at your Covenant Pacts, or Covenant Anima Reservoir, or your Heart of Azerite)

what they DONT need are these very expensive things:

- GFX
- World
- Game engine changes
- Game engine logic

The simple reason why they do lots of that stuff and less „real“ content is: its just waaaaay cheaper. and your very high quality GFX designers, world creators, music ppls, etc can be used for other games.

this is known as cost effective development (build complex looking stuff with least possible input/effort). aka: milk the cow mode.

its all about $$$. and the simple reason why there are many „systems“ instead of „content“ the last years is: „systems“ safes more $$$ and create a more long looking feature list. simple as that.

[Kokolums]

Honestly I’m a bit tired of it too. Granted Shadowlands is a gigantic step in the right direction as far as mandatory systems go. The only grind I kinda can’t stand anymore is soul ash. It was simple enough on my main but running Torghast on all my alts now has just sucked any enjoyment out of it whatsoever. I honestly think at this point for legendaries I’d prefer the rng drop system of Legion although with a way to target specific ones.

Torghast is 1000000% awful content. It is Diablo 3 rifts, which was unimaginably horrible. I'm shocked they actually tried rifts in WoW. I screamed when they announced it. I warned that it was absolutely soul-sucking awful content in beta. It went in anyway. And now people can't stand it. What a surprise.

[GreenJesus]

Obviously, because that is what people wanted.

In Legion, people cried over having to grind AP for each spec seperately, so in BFA we have one necklace for all.

In BFA people cried about having to do grinding at all, so in SLs we do not have a grind anymore.

Now people complain they have nothing to do but Raid and M+ and I feel like facepalming every time I read it.

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I don't even know what the heck you are talking about. I am pretty sure you haven't played SLs. The only one character progression system that requires "grind" is Soul Ash, and that is maybe 1 hour a week and by now you can easily have 1 Rank 4 Legendary for every spec. Anima is completely unimportant now.

Unless of course you consider running dungeons for better gear as "locking character power behind a progression system".

Yes, having to actually play the game to progress your character is suuuuch a bother. Why do they not just send me a set of full 226 when I reach 60 with manually adjustable stats and all transmog options unlocked, so I can stand in my Sanctuary and pick my nose.

Seriously, the entitlement and lazyness of players is getting out of hand. 70% of the complaints these days are "Why do I have to work for rewards?".

If the relation between "effort" and "character progression" is too complex, there is always Fortnite.

Different groups complain about different things news at 11. Raiders love shadowlands because there is no grind. Casuals that only do the world content are probably bored out of their mind or unsubbed since they "cant" advance their item level.

[Zorachus]

i would agree to yours and the poster you quoted (@Zorachus) if you just had not forget the main thing:

that „systems“ and „features“ are factor 20 more cheap for Blizz than creating content. since its all itembased, think about, what they really need for it:

- DB entries (items are just database entries)
- simple lua/game UIs (look at your Covenant Pacts, or Covenant Anima Reservoir, or your Heart of Azerite)

what they DONT need are these very expensive things:

- GFX
- World
- Game engine changes
- Game engine logic

The simple reason why they do lots of that stuff and less „real“ content is: its just waaaaay cheaper. and your very high quality GFX designers, world creators, music ppls, etc can be used for other games.

this is known as cost effective development (build complex looking stuff with least possible input/effort). aka: milk the cow mode.

its all about $$$. and the simple reason why there are many „systems“ instead of „content“ the last years is: „systems“ safes more $$$ and create a more long looking feature list. simple as that.

YEP. I think your on to something there. Blizzard s like a sports team, not wanting to spend the money anymore after winning the Championship, the owners are fine coasting for awhile, making money again, and not spending it on expensive athletes and stuff anymore.

WoW as we knew it is pretty much gone and ancient history. The last time WoW was "Fun" and "addicting to play 24/7" was in Legion and MoP. Certainly not this and the last expansion, they are devoid of any "fun" whatsoever.

[Nhiosis]

The game is just old. You can only put a new coat of paint on something so many times. It's on a semi stable financial model of milking players for sub money just enough to keep them coming back. Not tryin to fight just calling a spade a spade here. There is no big reinvention coming. This is it. Like it or leave it.

[Magnificent Madmartegan]

What's wrong with simple systems expansion??!? Probably because the current player base would burn straight through it and then complain about having nothing to do.

[arkanon]

The game is just old. You can only put a new coat of paint on something so many times. It's on a semi stable financial model of milking players for sub money just enough to keep them coming back. Not tryin to fight just calling a spade a spade here. There is no big reinvention coming. This is it. Like it or leave it.

Why? Series such as CoD, Battlefield, and other multiplayer games have gone through extensive changes even later in life than WoW - I dont see any reason to believe the same could not happen with WoW. One thing i do not believe will ever happen is WoW:2 - something many people seem to think would be required for drastic changes. I see absolutely no reason they couldnt try something COMPLETELY different with an expansion, especially if they were very open about it and communicated that they wanted to try something a bit different.

Although I dont have ANY numbers to back it up, I think WoW is in a position its at very least breaking even and paying for itself, although how profitable it is will remain a mystery for all time. I certainly dont think its the cash cow many think, and I often have a laugh at people who simultaneously claim everyone has left wow for FF14, while also saying it is a good earner for Blizzard.

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What's wrong with simple systems expansion??!? Probably because the current player base would burn straight through it and then complain about having nothing to do.

That sounds like a difficulty problem, not a systems problem.

[Varaben]

I enjoyed it at first and when I capped a new character it was fun to go in there and see the ridiculous powers I could get. But that excitement quickly wore off the 3rd, 4th, 5th time I was in there. I wish it had been more of an optional sorta thing though I don't know how would you make people wanna do it optionally. For a bunch of cosmetics I guess? I dunno. I just know I absolute hate running it and pretty have decided to leave half my alts without legendaries because I can't be bothered to do it again.

I don't know what happened to Torghast, but it lost its way somewhere in the development cycle. It's just not fun, it's not rewarding enough, and so many of the powers are not interesting or fun. It's just blah.

[infinitemeridian]

Why? Series such as CoD, Battlefield, and other multiplayer games have gone through extensive changes even later in life than WoW - I dont see any reason to believe the same could not happen with WoW. One thing i do not believe will ever happen is WoW:2 - something many people seem to think would be required for drastic changes. I see absolutely no reason they couldnt try something COMPLETELY different with an expansion, especially if they were very open about it and communicated that they wanted to try something a bit different.

Although I dont have ANY numbers to back it up, I think WoW is in a position its at very least breaking even and paying for itself, although how profitable it is will remain a mystery for all time. I certainly dont think its the cash cow many think, and I often have a laugh at people who simultaneously claim everyone has left wow for FF14, while also saying it is a good earner for Blizzard.

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That sounds like a difficulty problem, not a systems problem.

WoW 2 is inevitable. It may happen in 50 years, but it's going to happen. WoW will eventually shut off its servers in our lifetime (either due to financial or technical reasons), and then Blizz will announce WoW 2 either immediately after or years after for the hype.

[Kokolums]

I enjoyed it at first and when I capped a new character it was fun to go in there and see the ridiculous powers I could get. But that excitement quickly wore off the 3rd, 4th, 5th time I was in there. I wish it had been more of an optional sorta thing though I don't know how would you make people wanna do it optionally. For a bunch of cosmetics I guess? I dunno. I just know I absolute hate running it and pretty have decided to leave half my alts without legendaries because I can't be bothered to do it again.

Yes that is the exact problem with god mode. The fun wears off quickly.

As I've said about Diablo I in 1996, the entire game was on your computer, so the first thing everyone did was hack the game files, give themselves god mode, kill Diablo in 5 minutes, feel a rush of adenaline and then say "this game sucks!" and quit. Early development of Torghast was similar in that they just threw beta tresters god mode pretty much with crazy powers. OF COURSE they would enjoy that for a little bit. But not for long.

Torghast is like rifts though. Its mindless solo content.

[kaid]

Those expansions had gimmicks, they were generally just ones that lasted longer than one expansion. Wrath = vehicles. BC = flying mounts and heroic dungeons. Cataclysm = world revamp, and so on.

they're still taking ideas from past expansions, they've just realized that dumping more and more abilities onto players makes them feel samey after a while, hence the legion prune, but have been trying to find that balance since.

Yup they want some hooks to interest people in playing but figured out that you can't just keep adding new powers every expansion or you lose any class differences over time. They went overboard on the ability squish though and have been ramping it up. Right now its in a pretty good spot but that leaves us with what do you do for the next expansion. This is why they kinda went into the system method because it gives you something you can use for an expansion but you don't carry over so it does not just bloat into infinity. It just feels weird though going from one expansion to another. I don't know that there even is a good answer for it. A lot of mmos just accepted radicicolous levels of ability bloat like starwars the old republic or FF14 or eq2 where you just have hotkeybar upon hotkeybar for stuff. Even wow in its current state for a lot of classes is bordering on more stuff you are required to do quickly than you have fingers to access.

[arkanon]

WoW 2 is inevitable. It may happen in 50 years, but it's going to happen. WoW will eventually shut off its servers in our lifetime (either due to financial or technical reasons), and then Blizz will announce WoW 2 either immediately after or years after for the hype.

So just to be clear, you feel Blizzard will keep running wow until it is no longer financially viable, and then release a sequel to a game no one is playing anymore?

Ill ask you the same question i ask everyone when they make this claim - what could they do with WoW:2 that they couldnt do with an expansion?

[deenman]

Yet they make more money of the game than they used to before, so why can't they dedicate more developers to other stuff too?

becuz bobbyz yachs dont come cheap boi

[infinitemeridian]

So just to be clear, you feel Blizzard will keep running wow until it is no longer financially viable, and then release a sequel to a game no one is playing anymore?

Ill ask you the same question i ask everyone when they make this claim - what could they do with WoW:2 that they couldnt do with an expansion?

Because almost every media trend (see star wars, HP, etc.) is that every big IP that goes "dormant" will remain so for almost a decade or two, then get a "reimagining" or "reboot" after. So yes, if Blizz shuts down WoW at some point, you can be that later down the line, be it 10 years or 30, there will be another WoW.

They will get up on that stage, the lights will go dark, the warcraft theme / drums will play and the words "a new legend awaits..." or something like that. And it will sell like hotcakes.

[arkanon]

Because almost every media trend (see star wars, HP, etc.) is that every big IP that goes "dormant" will remain so for almost a decade or two, then get a "reimagining" or "reboot" after. So yes, if Blizz shuts down WoW at some point, you can be that later down the line, be it 10 years or 30, there will be another WoW.

They will get up on that stage, the lights will go dark, the warcraft theme / drums will play and the words "a new legend awaits..." or something like that. And it will sell like hotcakes.

You didnt answer my question - what could be done in wow:2 that couldnt be done with an expansion? Here is a counter pov for you:

The lights go dark, the warcraft theme / drums will play, and the words "a new legand awaits..." the crowd cheers! and then a hush falls over the crowd. The first person steps up to the mic - the very first question about their newly announced game - "what about my old character? i have spent 15-25 years growing and building this character, now you are sweeping him aside and making us start again? Is it April? Why cant this just be an expansion?"


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This question will not get answered.

Just as nobody answers the question how Blizzard (and especially everybody's favourite guy to hate Bobby Kotik) is making MORE money by creating a shit game that "everyone" hates with less developers that are also inferior to the old team.

And no "because whales" is really not an argument. Even if ppl hate the token and the shop....there are not enough crazy multiboxers in this game to explain it.

I tend to point out how SW:toR apparently made a billion dollars in 10 years and that made the company behind it so happy, they continue the game. Hm...WoW made that much in 1 year of WotLK from box sales and subs. And with SW:ToR we are after all talking bloody Star wars. And there is a LotR online game that should have been massive with THOSE books and THOSE films backing it.

Yet after 16 years, SL sells at least 4 million copies...rakes in 200 million dollars just from box sales (a fifth of the ENTIRE lifetime earnings of SW:toR) - then if those 4 million play only for a month (after the free month that I think comes with the sale?) - another 60 illion dollars - pretty impressive for a game that apparently does everything wrong for ages according to...let me check...yeah, there is usually about 250 ppl online here that can post and like 50 of them try to convince us how the World of warcraft is just a big mess.

I think this is why I also like these "will Blizzard abandon SL" videos on youtube recently. Then again..we had "will Blizzard abandon BfA" before that...so clickbait and all that.

At one point i thought they might try an entirely new IP or an entirely new MMO based in another one of their IP's - Diablo or Starcraft being the obvious ones. But once we saw what D3 was like, with all the multiplayer aspects, i ruled that out. And once we all saw what happened to project Titan, which we all know became HOTS, i ruled it out entirely. What i can NEVER see them doing is WoW:2 - their expansion system is already well established and in place, and if they wanted to do something drastic, such as an entirely new graphics engine, and entirely new art style, new class system, new combat system etc etc etc, there is absolutely nothing stopping them doing that in an expansion.

Secondly, the attachment players have to their accounts and its characters, their mains, their alts, their mounts, transmog, achievements - the results of their time invested, is far too strong to ignore, and creating "wow:2" would destroy all of that. The counter argument i see with this? "oh, well obviously you could carry your characters over to WoW:2, thats just obvious!" - oh, you mean.........[drum roll].......EXACTLY like an expansion?

[Elias1337]

Why can't we have an expansion like Wrath or BC or even Cata? they didn't have much complicated systems, yet they had more zones, raids, dungeons, the story was even better!

Becouse only expansion out of those 3 only TBC had no content draught. Do you want to know why Blizzard start adding this new systems? Becouse of WoD. Game no longer could sustain any longetivity due to Blizzard push after acessability and covinience. Game content start being consumed so fast that Blizz couldnt keep up anymore. And players on the forums cryed "please give us more content, something to do,etc.." But Blizzard isnt cappable of creating enough content with such high acessability and covinience. Players will end up consuming it always faster then Blizzard is able to create. So only asnwer was to add new alternative way of progression.

COVINIENCE AND ACESSABILITY made playerbase burn trough wow content. TBC or Vannila had no LFG, LFR, no difficulty levels, no all the covinience of current game so content took way more time to consume than now thats why old expansions didnt need these systems.

[Varaben]

Becouse only expansion out of those 3 only TBC had no content draught. Do you want to know why Blizzard start adding this new systems? Becouse of WoD. Game no longer could sustain any longetivity due to Blizzard push after acessability and covinience. Game content start being consumed so fast that Blizz couldnt keep up anymore. And players on the forums cryed "please give us more content, something to do,etc.." But Blizzard isnt cappable of creating enough content with such high acessability and covinience. Players will end up consuming it always faster then Blizzard is able to create. So only asnwer was to add new alternative way of progression.

COVINIENCE AND ACESSABILITY made playerbase burn trough wow content. TBC or Vannila had no LFG, LFR, no difficulty levels, no all the covinience of current game so content took way more time to consume than now thats why old expansions didnt need these systems.

TBC though had a MOUNTAIN of content at launch. Didn't we get T4 and 5 AND Hyjal all available at launch? And like 15 dungeons or something? I mean just leveling and gearing up for T4, then T4, then T5 took months and months. So even if it did have the accessibility stuff it would still have lasted so long.

But agree though, they end up creating this cycle where each raid consumes the prior. Each patch brings catch-up in Retail so there's no reason to do the prior raid content. Whereas in TBC/Vanilla there was always a raid treadmill. New guilds/players always had to push through MC and then BWL, there was no way around that. And this did start in TBC where they added badge gear that was extremely strong later on in the expansion. But even then you'd run Gruul for DST or T5 for specific gear pieces that were super strong even in T6. Plus you'd have to get people attuned and stuff, so you always had a reason to run that old stuff.

On retail, there are so many versions of each raid that there's no reason to run old raids once the new one comes out. The gear scaling is ridiculous and that's part of why PVP is so dead right now. New players with 25k hp get absolutely stomped. Gear scaling is out of control for whatever reason, and that happened in older expansions too, but not in a single raid tier. Like full MC gear didn't do some crazy DPS increase that you couldn't get outside of raids from dungeon blues and crafted stuff.

[wargone]

A simple system expansion would never work..
First of all " Here is new land, with X raids and Y dungeons" Does not bring people back.

Massive features like Torgcast, or faction war.

If blizzard just make 10.0 " The big bad light lords" - Here is 2 minor raids and 1 Raid for X.0, And 11 Dungeons, with 6 zones.
that does nothing.

[rrayy]

For me...

I’d love it if each expansion gave a new spell or two to add to the rotation. You can prune spells later on, spells that would minimize dot/hot upkeep etc but continuously add something that makes you stronger or more versatile.

You just described exactly what Shadowlands does.