1. #2041
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    I remember getting the best piece of gear in an expansion (legendary cloak) in MoP without ever doing the "hardest content". In fact, I did it completely in LFR and solo. And every step went at a slower pace for me because I was doing it in LFR.
    Ya, the 235 legendary is the best u can get. But when I refer to best gear, im talking like a full set, not 1 piece

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Nobody has claimed that they did. What we had was the second best gear in the game over a long period of time.
    The person I was originally talking to was talking about acquiring the best gear just at a slower rate. Not second best gear.

  2. #2042
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Raider, sure if you only want mythic ilvl in the vault... normal and HC is puggable. Especially now.
    M+ vault I did solo even though I'm in a mythic raiding guild because I sometimes prefer just to play "alone"... PvP I can't comment on.

    You don't need a guild for raiding(except mythic) or m+ though, that's just a myth that are putting up barriers for yourself.
    When folks say they're having trouble getting into pugs because of things like raiderio among others, the answer is always "find a guild". What is the solution when you can't find a guild, but are also having trouble with pugs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Dude he’s worried about being perma gibbed in random bgs due to low ilvl gear, of course entering them is free.
    Correct, but these people don't care. They think I should pay 15 a month to take beatings and be happy for them.

    Only way I'm doing that is if there's a guarantee the beating-givers are all female characters wearing black leather transmogs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    -snip-
    That sounds pretty cool, and yep that's precisely the kind of guild I'm looking for. One that's easy-going and inclusive, one where I don't have to worry about all the toxic elitism and exclusion on the outside. If I were a stronger minded person I could probably attempt to forge my own community out of nothing, and lead them to victory in this game, but I am not in the greatest of health and just thinking about attempting that is giving me headaches. I just want to join a good existing guild or community, is that much to ask?

  3. #2043
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    When folks say they're having trouble getting into pugs because of things like raiderio among others, the answer is always "find a guild". What is the solution when you can't find a guild, but are also having trouble with pugs?
    Everyone who pugs have trouble finding groups. Including "high rio" players... Depending on my luck I sometimes look for groups for 1h+ even at 1800 rio. Sometimes I find it instantly. In the end it's not about trouble, it's about if you can pug these things to get the gear you want, which you can. Don't get me wrong, looking for groups are boring af, but that's something everyone has to do.

  4. #2044
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    When folks say they're having trouble getting into pugs because of things like raiderio among others, the answer is always "find a guild". What is the solution when you can't find a guild, but are also having trouble with pugs?
    What about the people who do find a guild very easily, and casually pug everything without trouble? Why is it some people, with or without Rio, have no issues completing all content either with a guild, or pugging, and yet you, someone who has not even purchased SL, let alone played it, keep parroting this narrative of "i cant find any groups".

    Same goes for pvp - i know many people, myself included, who have a great deal of success and a hell of a lot of fun playing random bgs, even with an ilvl below 180. You know whats worse than getting killed by a 215 ilvl player when you are only 180 ilvl? Being on a 215 ilvl character and getting absolutely ruined by a skilled pvper on their 180 ilvl character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post

    Correct, but these people don't care. They think I should pay 15 a month to take beatings and be happy for them.

    Only way I'm doing that is if there's a guarantee the beating-givers are all female characters wearing black leather transmogs.
    No - we are telling you that your reality comes from a place of having never played SL, and people who actually DO play it are saying your concerns are unfounded, or at very least grossly exaggerated.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-04-29 at 10:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  5. #2045
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    The only way this was possible was if we would increase Raid Loot by 20 ilvls, and then allow everyone else to gear to 220 from other things. And you know what will happen then? People will hit 220 and the exact same arguments will come again. "I can't progress anymore, because picking flowers only awards 220 items! Why does Raiding give 233! I want 233!"
    Please don't pretend you don't know that this is the case. Everyone playing the game has a limit to how much they can progress. Be it choice or skill based. I am close to 226 now, after months of dungeoneering and raiding, but I will never see the juicy 233 items that drop from Stone Legion and Denathrius Mythic. A mixture of not being a Mythic Raider and not having the time to progress through Mythic.

    Do you see me complaining that my progression is stopped at this point? No, because it is my choice not to participate in Mythic Raiding, just as it is the choice of the folks in this thread not to participate in group content. It's their choice and their resposibility. The game is not at fault for their decisions.



    First of all, the world adjusts around your gear and character level, so mobs are stronger if you engage them at 226 then at 200. Granted it's still pretty easy to kill them, but in a high level zone like the Maw even a highly geared character can still die if they pull stupid. Torghast recently had an Ilvl recommendation added, which tells you which floor you should try.

    But otherwise ... I mean yeah, people with higher gear have an easier time then those with lower gear... that is kind of the point of an MMO. The only way to remove this is by removing gear as a factor entirely and that is terrible.
    Not to mention that if people would be judged entirely by their skill in playing you would still see a significant divide, because the people that are sporting 226 ilvl gear now are in general better players specifically because they have applied themselves and put effort into being good enough to earn their gear.
    In my experience that was never that much of a problem as it is now.
    In previous expansions they usually gave out some epics for the plebs that made the world content trivial for everyone. It's only this exp that they are even stricter with the gear and they turned the welfare gear around so that only the rich get richer and the poor are fucked. Just like in the real world

    Yes Ion may say "it's only 20%" but it's 20 more damage, 20% more hitpoints, 20% more selfhealing, 20% more crits, 20% faster casting and so on. That is a lot in the end.

  6. #2046
    Brewmaster Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roboscorcher View Post
    In a real-world society, you can argue that a pure capitalistic model (no catchup systems) works. I think it has many flaws, but that's beside the point. In a videogame though, if you have no safety net for people slipping through the cracks of the meta, they will quit. They do not have the real-world incentive to continue toiling away at the bottom to pay the bills. They will simply leave once the meta leaves them behind, and the community will shrink significantly. This affects the economy as the market shinks, and there are less people to group with.
    I agree but that's a different system. Catch up mechanics are different than high end rewards. Rewards in the game are equal to effort involved. You can see the same content in LFR and be rewarded for it. The rewards are just scaled appropriately for the effort involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by splatomat View Post
    You think the average CEO of a company puts in more effort than their frontline employees, huh. LOL okay

    Plus, your analogy doesn't actually support your position. In your analogy, both the CEO and the mail room assistant progress using the same currency. The mail room assistant just does it more slowly. If both of them want to buy a fancy suit, they probably both can. One just has to save a lot longer.

    That's actually what I'd love to see in this game: a system that rewards all playstyles, and just does it in scale. Valor could have been that system, but was instead a half-baked mess (but then that's keeping in theme with SL entirely).
    I think they do yes, I know I don't work 80 hour weeks etc in a full time job. Shit in a previous guild I was in a fella I knew was only a bank manager and he took his work home with him. He'd be doing it in breaks and between raid wipes.

  7. #2047
    Why does it even matter? Your gear, mount, titles says nothing these days. I have no idea how skilled people are in this game anymore, cause theres no obvious tellings except for maybe the arena mounts at high level.

    People use boosts left and right for PvE & pvp, without doing shit. People boost for mounts, titles, gear.

    Theres also very little need of actually having to communicate with others and bond connections. Its just get into content you wanna do with randoms, hope it works out well, leave. Move onto next.

    How it affects anyone, at any level of this game, that others have good gear is pointless. In fact, the more people with good gear, the potential bigger playerpool for higher content.

    We are months into SL with no new patch in sight, thats more of an issue.

  8. #2048
    Brewmaster Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Why does it even matter? Your gear, mount, titles says nothing these days. I have no idea how skilled people are in this game anymore, cause theres no obvious tellings except for maybe the arena mounts at high level.

    People use boosts left and right for PvE & pvp, without doing shit. People boost for mounts, titles, gear.

    Theres also very little need of actually having to communicate with others and bond connections. Its just get into content you wanna do with randoms, hope it works out well, leave. Move onto next.

    How it affects anyone, at any level of this game, that others have good gear is pointless. In fact, the more people with good gear, the potential bigger playerpool for higher content.

    We are months into SL with no new patch in sight, thats more of an issue.
    I don't know about that. Some of the old raiding titles and mounts which were removed I still dig. Death's Demise, Grand Crusader, Champion of the Naaru/Hand of A'dal and Amani War Bear etc. Some of the removed titles you couldn't buy or pug as they were server first kills.

  9. #2049
    Gladiator titles used to be the most prestigious, before they was nerfed to be a simple achievement..

  10. #2050
    I think bigger problem is with gear system because there is simply none. PVP gear is fastest to obtain and quality is same as PVE or even better in some points. Now they do deiced to make crazy restrictions about upgradin ur PVP gear in 9.1 (take and keep rat and win a least 1 match on same rat or above). Ok i feel it but this change will cut out totally gearing up ALTs if you dont wanna pay for freakin boost. Boosts are cancer that is eating this game so badly. PVE gearing its ok. PVP its dumb atm. There is no brakcets for PVPers. No changes between PVP/PVE gear at all. This is nuts. Imo PVP gear should downgrade -10ilvl in PVE and same PVE downgrade -10ilvl in PVP (+-). There should be brackets is u got for example 1660 rat u can play max vs 1799. Next bracket over 1800 etc.

  11. #2051
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    In my experience that was never that much of a problem as it is now.
    Well, this might just be because the complaints over the game are constantly increasing. People enjoy drama and the unsatisfied are the loudest. So many people even in this thread are not even playing the game, but complain about the systems just because they feel good about infecting others with their hate and making them quit the game too.
    And as I pointed out before, yes, I also feel this is newish. The mindset of players seems to be radically changing. Earning rewards is no longer something many people are interested in. They just want to be given stuff for free without effort, without aquiring necessary skills, just because they want them. It's a call for equality but in a warped way, where people that do the work, should not be treated differently then those that refuse to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    In previous expansions they usually gave out some epics for the plebs that made the world content trivial for everyone. It's only this exp that they are even stricter with the gear and they turned the welfare gear around so that only the rich get richer and the poor are fucked. Just like in the real world
    Again, you get free epics from your Covenant Story, which you can upgrade by doing WQs to ilvl 197, which is extremely close to Normal Raid gear. World Content is not becoming trivial because the world increases in difficulty as you increase in power. A system that has been in place since Legion to allow you to level anywhere you like and have a decent challenge even if you are highly geared.

    And I still do not understand what you mean with this nonesense of "welfare for the rich". The "rich" are WORKING for their gear. My Vault is not scanning my Item Level and then fills itself... I still very much have to do 10 M+14 (at least) to get my 3 226 choices and even that is no guarantee that I will get an upgrade, last week I got so much crap I opted for the Stygia.
    Do I have an easier time running +14s? Yes, because I am in a guild of friends and we have fun running stuff. I understand it's harder if you want to play completely solo, but how is that not the players own fault? This is a multi-player game, guilds and groups are readily avaiable for anyone that wants to join them. Not wanting to be social is a decision and it does not entitle people to an easier path to loot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Yes Ion may say "it's only 20%" but it's 20 more damage, 20% more hitpoints, 20% more selfhealing, 20% more crits, 20% faster casting and so on. That is a lot in the end.
    It's actually a lot less then you think, because individual player skill plays a huge part. Yes, the sim will tell you this is the case, but the sim assumes that both the 220 and 200 player are doing their rotations perfectly, without any mechanics involved. Basically on a dummy with an AI pushing button exactly on time. No human player can achieve that in actual combat.
    Because of this you have an incredible variance between people, even if they are on the same gear level. For a really good player making up a 20% gear difference to a bad players is no problem. Just look at the WF Races. The players there are always undergeared, brutally so, but their performance allows them to still beat bosses that other people need 20 Ilvls more for.

    On top of that, I still don't see the problem even if in an ideal world your character is 20% weaker then a Mythic Raider's. None of the content in the world requires this high gear. WQs will be easily done at 200 and even in the Maw you just need to be smart about how you pull things and interrupt what needs to be interrupted, gear does not changes this drastically. If I barge into Perdition's Hold at 226 and pull halve the area I will still die in seconds, I might live 20% longer but that makes very little difference.

  12. #2052
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    When folks say they're having trouble getting into pugs because of things like raiderio among others, the answer is always "find a guild". What is the solution when you can't find a guild, but are also having trouble with pugs?
    I'm one of the few people from the RIO community who are objective. "Find a guild" is just a very poor response. It's like when someone tells a homeless guy "just go get a job, you lazy bum!" without knowing all the circumstances surrounding that person. While it sounds all easy to do, some tasks are not as feasible for some.

  13. #2053
    Id throw in "list your own key" as well. Listing your own key means running mythic zero. Running mythic zero means engaging with lfg. To players in lfg, this isnt a big deal. To players not running lfg its a gigantic step up, psychologically.

    And i should add: Both answers are absolutely correct (which is super annoying). The issue is that LFG has a reputation in the community for toxicity, and blizzard do an incredibly poor job of explaining "This ISNT a massive leap into the abyss! You got this!"
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-04-30 at 12:05 PM.

  14. #2054
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    I don't know about that. Some of the old raiding titles and mounts which were removed I still dig. Death's Demise, Grand Crusader, Champion of the Naaru/Hand of A'dal and Amani War Bear etc. Some of the removed titles you couldn't buy or pug as they were server first kills.
    yeah, the old ones still hold up, I agree on that. But does the newer ones do? As with alot of things in retail wow, theres so much of it going around it almost loses meaning. So many mounts, so many titles. I barely notice mounts anymore, titles? pff cant recall myself looking at a title. They are a dime a dozen.

  15. #2055
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Id throw in "list your own key" as well. Listing your own key means running mythic zero. Running mythic zero means engaging with lfg. To players in lfg, this isnt a big deal. To players not running lfg its a gigantic step up, psychologically.

    And i should add: Both answers are absolutely correct (which is super annoying). The issue is that LFG has a reputation in the community for toxicity, and blizzard do an incredibly poor job of explaining "This ISNT a massive leap into the abyss! You got this!"
    Mythic 0 isn't to bad its the 5-13 level keys that will make the most stalwart "every class and spec works and the I play for fun" player turn into a raider io nazi.

  16. #2056
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Mythic 0 isn't to bad its the 5-13 level keys that will make the most stalwart "every class and spec works and the I play for fun" player turn into a raider io nazi.
    i dont play lfg. For reasons. I dont know what they are. I just dont. But even i know that (based on forums) mythic zero is super easy (especially when you have literal +6 mythic gear handed out to you) ...until a discussion comes up about mythic zero on lfd and then i know its the most complicated dungeon experience in game.

    The community are kinda trash. I moaned about torghast just the other minute on the same grounds. LFG IS the obvious step up from mythic. Why heroic dungeons dont just become mythic zero 2 months after release of a new expansion boggles my mind. Just give them a key, throw it in their bags. Make them look at that key over 2-4 weeks. Make them think 'screw it, i'll list it'. Let them list it as "i dont care if we time this crap?!". Time the key! Get people invested in the system.

    Instead we have: Ive finished LFD. Ive got awesome gear way above the content im doing. Queue for LFG? No thanks.

    "goodbye wow! (another unsub thread)".

  17. #2057
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    i dont play lfg. For reasons. I dont know what they are. I just dont. But even i know that (based on forums) mythic zero is super easy (especially when you have literal +6 mythic gear handed out to you) ...until a discussion comes up about mythic zero on lfd and then i know its the most complicated dungeon experience in game.

    The community are kinda trash. I moaned about torghast just the other minute on the same grounds. LFG IS the obvious step up from mythic. Why heroic dungeons dont just become mythic zero 2 months after release of a new expansion boggles my mind. Just give them a key, throw it in their bags. Make them look at that key over 2-4 weeks. Make them think 'screw it, i'll list it'. Let them list it as "i dont care if we time this crap?!". Time the key! Get people invested in the system.

    Instead we have: Ive finished LFD. Ive got awesome gear way above the content im doing. Queue for LFG? No thanks.

    "goodbye wow! (another unsub thread)".
    To be frank while mythic 0 is easy bosses gain the ability to kill people who outright ignore them. That level of difficulty was proven to much for the average wow player back in cata,

  18. #2058
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I've played every xpac for 16 years. Thats great that you don't care because u raid. But that dsnt change the fact that casuals have never had a gearing process that allowed them to work towards the best gear at a slower pace without doing the hardest content
    I never said anything about casuals getting the best gear, that's what you projected. In the past we've had systems where casuals could get the second best gear in the game essentially drip fed through things like reputations or badges/valor points. I don't think most reasonable people would ask for something to return and then demand that what we had wasn't good enough. One piece of the second best gear every 1-2 weeks depending on the slot (some slots were more expensive than others) from a currency that you can cap weekly from doing LFG/LFR/WQ content, the casuals just want that back since it gave them a clear and satisfying progression path. Other very popular MMORPGs are doing it successfully without the hardcore players getting furious, why should WoW be any different?

  19. #2059
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I never said anything about casuals getting the best gear, that's what you projected. In the past we've had systems where casuals could get the second best gear in the game essentially drip fed through things like reputations or badges/valor points. I don't think most reasonable people would ask for something to return and then demand that what we had wasn't good enough. One piece of the second best gear every 1-2 weeks depending on the slot (some slots were more expensive than others) from a currency that you can cap weekly from doing LFG/LFR/WQ content, the casuals just want that back since it gave them a clear and satisfying progression path. Other very popular MMORPGs are doing it successfully without the hardcore players getting furious, why should WoW be any different?
    Let's recap. Someone made an analogy about how a CEO gets better stuff than a mailbox clerk. Someone responded saying that the mailbox clerk still earns money and this can get nice stuff too just at a slower rate. I reply to that comment saying the mail room clerk will never have a mansion, yacht, and Lamborghini like the ceo does. You reply that CEO analogy is silly and other games have systems that allows players to casually acquire gear. Based on the fact that u were replying to my comment about never having the best stuff, I assumed u were talking about earning the best gear thru a casual system. I replied thar this has never been the case in wow and u shld play those other games instead.

    As for the other part of your comment, ~200 ilvl gear u acquire now casually, is on the same tier as gear u would've earned woth badges. And instead of 3 or so pieces, u get 9. The problem with it is you acquire it entirely too fast. Which I made a thread about slowing the rate down and got nothing but pushback lol
    Last edited by ellieg; 2021-04-30 at 01:37 PM.

  20. #2060
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    To be frank while mythic 0 is easy bosses gain the ability to kill people who outright ignore them. That level of difficulty was proven to much for the average wow player back in cata,
    What say you if i said we have upwards of 20 difficulty levels with whatever difficulty curve you wanted to apply (linear/exponential, a mix of the two?). Im a teacher (well, crypto teacher - esl - but with 15 years experience), and my job is literally to provide early success and raise the bar/challenge (in mythic plus terms - im gonna congratulate you for those first 5 levels from a) using any english, to understanding what you're getting at. b) making a sentence, to making a grammatically correct sentence; and c) making a complex but understandable sentence to punishing you for incredibly mild grammatical errors.)

    Linear is dumb. 'It demotivates 'the players'. Exponential is correct. It's appropriate and reward success at lower levels (i understood you). At the medium level, i can do this! (keep encouraging them!). At the highest level they dont want to be patronised and will see through it. They WANT to be tested. They want to show their ability.

    Below this, you shut them down and hold them to that standard, they gonna shut down (you can critique, but you need to be nevertheless, encouraging). At the lowest level, any critique is... FUCK YOU. FUCK THIS. I DONT EVEN KNOW WHY I BOTHERED!

    Thats the exponential curve.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-04-30 at 01:43 PM.

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