1. #2141
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post

    As I said, you have no idea what you are talking about. The actual dungeon loot is completely inconsequential, baring a Trinket or so, that you use if you are not getting it from the Vault. People that run +15 dungeons will not gain upgrades from a 210 item, the only upgrades they can get is from the Vault and to make sure they actually get something good, they need to unlock all 3 choices.

    So, what we have established is that you will not be satisfied with Normal raid quality gear given for free, it has to be Heroic level or better Mythic level and that you made comments about a system you do not understand at all.

    Probably best if the important decisions about the games economy and systems are made by people who actually care to understand these things.
    Its not exactly that, its simply lack of understanding how things work.

    Some people simply dont get it how easy it is for others to do some things and the "right order to do some things".

    Its like telling someone that simply they were taught wrong, and cant change, you go to a house, and you see them trying to boil water with the heat turned to 3/10, and you tell them

    "Maybe turn it to 10 so it boils in 5 mins and not 3 hours?" and they simply answer

    "No, 10 is dangerous it might burn me , this guide says to have it at 3", and you check the guide and its "How to slow cook goat in 48 hours".

    You dont understand the crazy behind it, and you cant change them, the game is the same.

    Someone was told that "Mythic 0" dungeons must be done after farming HC dungeons and your ilvl is high enough, then you go there, aka linear progression,

    So they waste 20-40 hours in LFG, which for them is literally a month of gameplay, queueing and trying to gear in Normal, then in HC dungeons, and eventually the "OMG MYTHIC 0, MY SOCIAL ANXIETY" when the reality of things is:

    You ding, you farm the basic gear around you can see, you hit anywhere near 150 ilvl cause thats you generally get 148 ilvl at just dinged questlines/world quests in the start of the expansion, and you go in M0 and cleave it the fuck down, and end up in 184 in a few hours, obviously there might be a wipe in there but eh.

    This is the problem with the majority of the game, most people arent "Bad" or "Stupid" or "Noobs", but they were never taught to have a proper thought process, and you simply cant change them.

  2. #2142
    Quote Originally Posted by roboscorcher View Post
    I was the 'token ret' in my guild, so I hear ya brother. Classic raids had a lot of problems which is why I left for Shadowlands. That said, I miss the simplicity of classic. I'm excited to play ret in TBC and not be a meme spec.
    The idea of maining a mage and just spamming frostbolt did appeal to me, I will admit. I'm not a great player and I do appreciate simplicity.

  3. #2143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    But then you get free loot for nothing on top of that every week. If that is not welfare i don't know what is.
    The funniest part is that that "welfare loot" is the only way to progress your character if you aren't a mythic raider, due to the massive nerfs to raids and (especially) M+ loot. Sure, they've walked them back a bit, but still.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

  4. #2144
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    The funniest part is that that "welfare loot" is the only way to progress your character if you aren't a mythic raider, due to the massive nerfs to raids and (especially) M+ loot. Sure, they've walked them back a bit, but still.
    Yeah no one is a fan of that it was a change for the investors not the players.

  5. #2145
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    As I said, you have no idea what you are talking about. The actual dungeon loot is completely inconsequential, baring a Trinket or so, that you use if you are not getting it from the Vault. People that run +15 dungeons will not gain upgrades from a 210 item, the only upgrades they can get is from the Vault and to make sure they actually get something good, they need to unlock all 3 choices.
    Yeah, great logic. I don't get enough loot from the spammable dungeons so i need free loot. If that is not welfare loot i don't know what is.
    By that logic give Vault loot for normal dungeons because "actual dungeon loot is completely inconsequential, baring a Trinket or so, that you use if you are not getting it from the Vault.".
    Not that i'm demanding that but by your "logic" that would be perfectly sound.

  6. #2146
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Yeah, great logic. I don't get enough loot from the spammable dungeons so i need free loot. If that is not welfare loot i don't know what is.
    By that logic give Vault loot for normal dungeons because "actual dungeon loot is completely inconsequential, baring a Trinket or so, that you use if you are not getting it from the Vault.".
    Not that i'm demanding that but by your "logic" that would be perfectly sound.
    Again, how is it "free loot" when I run 10 dungeons for ONE RANDOM piece of loot. How is that welfare in any way? If anything the game is asking a lot of effort for this one piece. Not sure how this point is so complicated for you. The difference between "earning" and "welfare" indeed seems to be well beyond you.

    Must be because you never set foot in a M+ dungeon, so you have no idea what kind of effort every last one is and thus you can completely dismiss it. Yet for a reason that only you know, despite having not the slightest clue how the system works, you feel qualified to decide what should be changed.

    Probably @potis is right and you can't even help it, you somehow picked up something you think is true (or want to believe is true because it shifts the responsibility from you) and are running with it no matter how many people tell you it's wrong. So I have little hope to convince you.

    My hope is just that the Devs never listen to this completely uninformed and plainly wrong feedback, because the day they do will be the end of WoW.

  7. #2147
    The loot system of Shadowlands completely eludes me, I admit.

    We're now on the epilogue of the longest first patch ever. Valor got tacked in as a system that will undoubtedly work better by next patch, and that makes you work way more if you have to upgrade lower pieces of gear, disincentivizing farming or punishing bad rng with loot because if you drop your bis in a 0 or +2 you then have to spend whole caps to bring it up to speed.

    Furthermore, the only gearing moment that seems to matter is now the Vault. You load your vault and hope for the best, the loot is anemic and there's no sensible reason for it to be so. There's no parallel progression and nothing but rage towards PvP and its gearing system where a currency could fix a lot of problems. Something for players to work towards if the Vault in its infinite wisdom gives you the vaunted Boots of Sidegrades or the long coveted Bracers of This Upgrade Does Not Move My Secondaries.

    The overall concept of welfare gear in m+ in regards to raid is at an absolute low too. Raid does not drop anything, anima is decent but overall useless to player power, and m+ yields less rewards overall than raiding. At least m+ rewards players for completing the key in time and have a chance for added loot at the end, but this loot is made weaker for no apparent reason. We could argue on difficulty, but the mythic cosmetics have value, albeit loaded on their patch or expansion of relevancy.

    I don't know. It looks like the overall threadmill broke as the machine of death.

  8. #2148
    It's simple, it devalues your own efforts and loot when you bust your ass 3 weeks on the same Mythic boss and some guy comes with the same ilvl out of a lucky chest drop.

    If everyone is rich no one is.

  9. #2149
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Yeah, great logic. I don't get enough loot from the spammable dungeons so i need free loot. If that is not welfare loot i don't know what is.
    By that logic give Vault loot for normal dungeons because "actual dungeon loot is completely inconsequential, baring a Trinket or so, that you use if you are not getting it from the Vault.".
    Not that i'm demanding that but by your "logic" that would be perfectly sound.
    You don't seem to understand how m+ loot worke so hopefully this explanation helps.

    Raid was the traditional gearing process. You can kill a boss 1 time per week (per difficulty) and have a chance at loot. This limit hard caps the amount of loot you are earning per week.

    M+ has no hard cap like this. You could clear m+ 50 times a week if ud like. So even if they are tuned to the same difficulty, it would be very unfair to allow m+ players to get the same ilvl loot from that m+. To counter this, they dropped the ilvl of loot in m+ by about 16 ilvls. This means 210 for +15 and up. To make m+ at least somewhat rewarding, they shifted the loot to come from the great vault. The great vault acts as the hard cap each week. Because raids can kill the boss and get a reward from the vault, m+ felt a little weak when it came to gearing pace. So they added in valor so u cld upgrade a few pieces a season up to 220.

    So no, its not welfare loot. Its literally the only piece of loot u get each week thats the appropriate ilvl for the difficulty it is.
    Last edited by ellieg; 2021-05-04 at 10:44 AM.

  10. #2150
    I saw today that there is gear in 9.1 that is acquired in casual content that will be upgradeable to near-Heroic raid level over quite a bit of time. If so, that's nice for those still playing.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  11. #2151
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    I saw today that there is gear in 9.1 that is acquired in casual content that will be upgradeable to near-Heroic raid level over quite a bit of time. If so, that's nice for those still playing.
    yep gonna be like benthic when it comes to upgrading

  12. #2152
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    You do dungeons for loot from the bosses within. Thats it. As far as i know M+ bosses do drop loot, don't they?
    But then you get free loot for nothing on top of that every week. If that is not welfare i don't know what is.
    This screams "im not good enough to do that content" yet you give your missinformed laughable opinion, amazing.

  13. #2153
    Because for some people, they only feel proud if they have something someone else doesn't and a simple achievement doesn't enough.;
    Which is funny because it's primarily WoW players with this personality fault. Look at many other games and you'll find it's not the case. People play because they enjoy the game -- not the rewards.

    So if everyone had an averaged iLevel -- their pride would suffocate because an chievement, pet, or mount just isn't enough for their ego.

    This is why no one takes WoW's seriously in competitions. It's simple entertainment and won't ever, really, go beyond that because they specifically want RNG to matter more than skill.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    It's simple, it devalues your own efforts and loot when you bust your ass 3 weeks on the same Mythic boss and some guy comes with the same ilvl out of a lucky chest drop.

    If everyone is rich no one is.
    Except you seem to imply gear is the only rewards the game offers, which is false.

  14. #2154
    you see i think that people believe "skilled players" means the players that clear mythic really quick or even top 1500 guilds

    truth is those players dont care about gear and whether little jimmy gets it or not. The players who do care are the ones that go into lfr and brag about carrying the group or they go into a heroic and tank it in dps spec complaining when they get called out. There are the "woot gear is the end game" crowd and the "boss kills are the endgame" crowd

  15. #2155
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    you see i think that people believe "skilled players" means the players that clear mythic really quick or even top 1500 guilds

    truth is those players dont care about gear and whether little jimmy gets it or not. The players who do care are the ones that go into lfr and brag about carrying the group or they go into a heroic and tank it in dps spec complaining when they get called out. There are the "woot gear is the end game" crowd and the "boss kills are the endgame" crowd
    Did you just create a strawman for your strawman while inventing a strawman to use in your example?

  16. #2156
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    I saw today that there is gear in 9.1 that is acquired in casual content that will be upgradeable to near-Heroic raid level over quite a bit of time. If so, that's nice for those still playing.
    I hope it's not too late and the casuals who left for other games are willing to return. Do you have a link where I can read about it? It sounds interesting.

  17. #2157
    Quote Originally Posted by ElDoorO View Post
    Because for some people, they only feel proud if they have something someone else doesn't and a simple achievement doesn't enough.;
    Which is funny because it's primarily WoW players with this personality fault. Look at many other games and you'll find it's not the case. People play because they enjoy the game -- not the rewards.
    And another that doesn't know what they are talking about. I do not mind in the least if other people have the same ilvl as myself. In fact I hope they do, because otherwise running Raids and M+ would be rather difficult, no? My pride lies in completing hard content with my friends and that involves passing around loot if you don't need it.

    What I do mind is the attitude displayed by many here that think they should just be given loot because they pay their sub.

    So if you earn your gear like anyone else, I have not the slightest problem with it, but if you demand a handout because you can't be arsed to do the content yourself but still want to be at the same gear level as a Mythic raider then then I will fight your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElDoorO View Post
    This is why no one takes WoW's seriously in competitions. It's simple entertainment and won't ever, really, go beyond that because they specifically want RNG to matter more than skill.
    *snort* And all the competitions around the world with price money on the line are not serious I guess? MDI, Arena Championship? No?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElDoorO View Post
    Except you seem to imply gear is the only rewards the game offers, which is false.
    It's the only reward that improves your characters power once you reach max level. The only other "reward" of that category is the skill that you pick up along the way.
    Cosmetics are nice, but they won't allow me to push ever higher in M+ dungeons which need you to improve your gear and your skill. Gear alone will not make you survive if you have no clue how to play and skill alone will not keep you alive if you get one shot from boss abilities.

    The question you should ask is why people that have no interest in Raiding or M+ need higher gear.

  18. #2158
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    What I do mind is the attitude displayed by many here that think they should just be given loot because they pay their sub.
    I'm part of the crowd who believe everyone should get loot, not just those who play the game 23 hours a day however, I agree with this part.

    Back when I started playing MMOs, this type of attitude was rare. The newer generation gamers are (in my opinion) are what's mostly killing off social aspects of gaming. I'm all for "consolation prizes" as we all have strings of bad luck but the ones that feel they deserve awesome loot simply for logging in, etc rub me the wrong way.

  19. #2159
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I'm part of the crowd who believe everyone should get loot, not just those who play the game 23 hours a day however, I agree with this part.

    Back when I started playing MMOs, this type of attitude was rare. The newer generation gamers are (in my opinion) are what's mostly killing off social aspects of gaming. I'm all for "consolation prizes" as we all have strings of bad luck but the ones that feel they deserve awesome loot simply for logging in, etc rub me the wrong way.
    I am the crowd that believes you are entirely and absolutely wrong. Worst part is we see the harm of your destructive philosophy but it doesn't phase you.

    When you hand out gear for simply spending time in game the only thing you have ever accomplished is adding a time grind for new players as they desperately try to get over the "freebie gear" limit. You flood the community with over geared horrible players who constantly try to go into difficulties beyond them because they have been artificially boosted past where they should be in the game.

    Who can blame them? I wouldn't want to run heroic dungeons with 200 ilv even if the only content I could clear is heroic dungeons its no longer rewarding and its your mentality that is at fault.

    Let gear reflect the difficulty there is a reason why almost every single game made works under this concept forget its principle at your peril.

    To put a real world example to it... your the man feeding birds rice thinking he has given them a tasty meal while ignorant of the pile a of dead birds behind him with blown out guts.

  20. #2160
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I am the crowd that believes you are entirely and absolutely wrong. Worst part is we see the harm of your destructive philosophy but it doesn't phase you.

    When you hand out gear for simply spending time in game the only thing you have ever accomplished is adding a time grind for new players as they desperately try to get over the "freebie gear" limit. You flood the community with over geared horrible players who constantly try to go into difficulties beyond them because they have been artificially boosted past where they should be in the game.

    Who can blame them? I wouldn't want to run heroic dungeons with 200 ilv even if the only content I could clear is heroic dungeons its no longer rewarding and its your mentality that is at fault.

    Let gear reflect the difficulty there is a reason why almost every single game made works under this concept forget its principle at your peril.

    To put a real world example to it... your the man feeding birds rice thinking he has given them a tasty meal while ignorant of the pile a of dead birds behind him with blown out guts.
    Not every person who gears themselves up is doing so to get into those "top tier" contents. There are tons of people who are just trying to get better gear just to get it. They have no desire to raid outside of maybe LFR. Many of them just want to do world activitives.

    So even if those players are "horrible", getting better gear will not magically make them better players. Those who have good gear and are good players will still shine above them.

    Your analogy is a bit of a stretch. Giving people a decent piece of gear now and then will hardly be the destruction of a community. I'm perfectly fine with casuals getting a good piece here and there over people paying for runs and getting vastly higher gear for no effort. I believe people in your crowd used to condescendingly call them "welfare epics."

    So again, just because someone lives in a game does not mean they automatically deserve everything.

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