1. #2161
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    When? I have been playing since the end of WoD and at no time since has there been a system that allowed people to skip dungeons and raids and still get the best loot in the game. I can't speak for the time before, but I very much doubt it since raids and dungeons are the core of the game since forever and even if, that would be 6-7 years ago, maybe time to let it go and find a game that gives you the free loot you so desperately crave.



    Strange, I only see threads from the other side loudly complaining that WQs and LFR do not award them with Mythic Raid gear. I personally haven't been complaining about anything in the game (apart from the story at times) because it works as intended and does so ever since Legion.
    Mythic Plus offers an endlessly playable system to do with my guild mates, Raids have been good, class balance is much better then in any other game and the QoL of the game is incredibly superior to all other MMOs I played. Of course I wouldn't mind better graphics and transmog options, but they are steadily improving.

    So, I am not the one that feels the entire system of the game needs to be changed to accomodate my wishes. It just needs to remain as it is, rewarding those that engage in playing and not those that feel entitled to BiS loot for paying their sub.
    Honestly i wonder if you even play World of Warcraft: Shadowlands because most of what you say about class balance, quality of life improvements and mythic+ is well just flat out wrong not to mention your incorrect comment about people wanting raid quality gear from world quests and LFR.

  2. #2162
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Not every person who gears themselves up is doing so to get into those "top tier" contents. There are tons of people who are just trying to get better gear just to get it. They have no desire to raid outside of maybe LFR. Many of them just want to do world activitives.

    So even if those players are "horrible", getting better gear will not magically make them better players. Those who have good gear and are good players will still shine above them.

    Your analogy is a bit of a stretch. Giving people a decent piece of gear now and then will hardly be the destruction of a community. I'm perfectly fine with casuals getting a good piece here and there over people paying for runs and getting vastly higher gear for no effort. I believe people in your crowd used to condescendingly call them "welfare epics."

    So again, just because someone lives in a game does not mean they automatically deserve everything.
    The problem is even with your horrible logic pointed out you refuse to see it. This isn't about the top end get your mind away from even raiders. You are over gearing people who are not ready to graduate from heroic dungeons to mythic to the point they can't realistically get a upgrade till mythic +7.

    They will naturally try to get into a mythic 7 not a mythic 0 with how your terrible mentality incentivizes the game. This isn't about some pecking order its knowing how people react and think. The only thing you accomplish with your thinking is to set up the people your trying to help with failure while adding a new hurdle for new players to overcome as they now have to establish themselves as not being part of the welfare crowd.

  3. #2163
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    The problem is even with your horrible logic pointed out you refuse to see it. This isn't about the top end get your mind away from even raiders. You are over gearing people who are not ready to graduate from heroic dungeons to mythic to the point they can't realistically get a upgrade till mythic +7.

    They will naturally try to get into a mythic 7 not a mythic 0 with how your terrible mentality incentivizes the game. This isn't about some pecking order its knowing how people react and think. The only thing you accomplish with your thinking is to set up the people your trying to help with failure while adding a new hurdle for new players to overcome as they now have to establish themselves as not being part of the welfare crowd.
    Goes both ways, pal. I think your logic is horrible and you refuse to see it.

    And who are you to determine who is or is not ready to "graduate" from a certain point in the game? I play for a long time, know the content them make an alt who gets said "welfare epics". I know I'm ready for certain content. Those epics help me skip the remedial stuff I don't need.

    You're making way too many assumptions about what people think and seem overly angry at the idea of people not following your personal chain of events.

  4. #2164
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Goes both ways, pal. I think your logic is horrible and you refuse to see it.

    And who are you to determine who is or is not ready to "graduate" from a certain point in the game? I play for a long time, know the content them make an alt who gets said "welfare epics". I know I'm ready for certain content. Those epics help me skip the remedial stuff I don't need.

    You're making way too many assumptions about what people think and seem overly angry at the idea of people not following your personal chain of events.
    The problem is my logic is well informed with what I admit is a somewhat pessimistic view and has been proven right more times then bares mentioning. Yours doesn't even really address the problems in your own example... if you just give out gear why would people play difficulties that reward worse gear?

    You can't just make a system and say "well its just for alts" that effects the entire playerbase. Your idea does and currently is actively harming the type of player your trying to help.

  5. #2165
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    The problem is my logic is well informed with what I admit is a somewhat pessimistic view and has been proven right more times then bares mentioning. Yours doesn't even really address the problems in your own example... if you just give out gear why would people play difficulties that reward worse gear?

    You can't just make a system and say "well its just for alts" that effects the entire playerbase. Your idea does and currently is actively harming the type of player your trying to help.
    Your logic wasn't proven by anything outside of anecdotes.

    You make it sound like somebody suggested just randomly giving out gear for no reason. Nobody is suggesting free high level gear for logging in today.

    And harming anyone is entirely your opinion.

    Your mentality is the reason this thread exists.

  6. #2166
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Your logic wasn't proven by anything outside of anecdotes.

    You make it sound like somebody suggested just randomly giving out gear for no reason. Nobody is suggesting free high level gear for logging in today.

    And harming anyone is entirely your opinion.

    Your mentality is the reason this thread exists.
    What is it you propose then and go into tiny detail. How does one offer higher and higher rewards without difficulty being outpaced? I am picking apart your point not to be cruel but to show you how the seed of failure in it will always undermine it.

  7. #2167
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    What is it you propose then and go into tiny detail. How does one offer higher and higher rewards without difficulty being outpaced? I am picking apart your point not to be cruel but to show you how the seed of failure in it will always undermine it.
    Incremental rewards are perfectly fine and have been a thing in the game for a long time. New patch quest rewards, LFR, participation prizes, etc. None of which ruined anything.

    You're not picking anything apart, you're playing the devil's advocate so you can rationalize why casuals shouldn't get gear and you're failing to do so. Your comments have been easy to counter. All you're really doing is reinforcing the OP.

  8. #2168
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
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    I feel this thread is derailed very much from the original post, and actually even the OP post is somewhat vague on details.
    Topic says what is says, but I think no one really knows after 100 pages what are we even talking about.
    Many propably read the title and figure out "This player X doing pet-battles in orgrimmar demands 226 items given to them" while this is not the case(or that's what I think anyway).
    Also there is a lot of things to clear out before it even makes point debating. What is "good loot"? Are we talking about ilvl 200, or ilvl 226? Is mythic +5 and upwards considered casual content until +15, or is +15 still casual?
    Everyone propably has their own opinion, but after 100 pages I think we have to be on the same page(no pun intended), because this is nothing but "No u" for 100 pages now.

    So: What is considered good loot, and casual content?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
    Mr. Smith about the cost of Triple-spec
    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

  9. #2169
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Incremental rewards are perfectly fine and have been a thing in the game for a long time. New patch quest rewards, LFR, participation prizes, etc. None of which ruined anything.

    You're not picking anything apart, you're playing the devil's advocate so you can rationalize why casuals shouldn't get gear and you're failing to do so. Your comments have been easy to counter. All you're really doing is reinforcing the OP.
    So the idea that new players need to get to a minimum ilv above content they should be doing isn't only acceptable but ideal to you?

    The idea of swaths of people bickering fighting and raging at each other in low keys who are trying to leap frog content is just the way things should be?

    The problem with your... ideals is you don't seem to witness the issues they cause first hand so your left looking around unsure why there are so many obvious problems.

  10. #2170
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    I feel this thread is derailed very much from the original post, and actually even the OP post is somewhat vague on details.
    Topic says what is says, but I think no one really knows after 100 pages what are we even talking about.
    Many propably read the title and figure out "This player X doing pet-battles in orgrimmar demands 226 items given to them" while this is not the case(or that's what I think anyway).
    Also there is a lot of things to clear out before it even makes point debating. What is "good loot"? Are we talking about ilvl 200, or ilvl 226? Is mythic +5 and upwards considered casual content until +15, or is +15 still casual?
    Everyone propably has their own opinion, but after 100 pages I think we have to be on the same page(no pun intended), because this is nothing but "No u" for 100 pages now.

    So: What is considered good loot, and casual content?
    I'm sure many do not know but I do because I've seen this asked many times before. Simply people who self-proclaim themselves as "hardcore" feel they're the only ones who deserve loot and anyone else getting loot will be the downfall and destruction of the game (this page is a perfect example of that).

    Some people just cannot dread the thought of casuals progressing at all. This has been a thing since vanilla. Not sure how many here played vanilla for real (many people claim they did but didn't to make themselves look like veterans) but when 2.0 hit and purple gear was given out to casuals, there were so many threats of class-action lawsuits on the forums. "I worked my butt off, those scrubs didn't!" and all other kinds of bologna. No lawsuits went through, by the way...

    Heaven forbid a game be accessible and have something for everyone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    So the idea that new players need to get to a minimum ilv above content they should be doing isn't only acceptable but ideal to you?

    The idea of swaths of people bickering fighting and raging at each other in low keys who are trying to leap frog content is just the way things should be?

    The problem with your... ideals is you don't seem to witness the issues they cause first hand so your left looking around unsure why there are so many obvious problems.
    The problem with your "ideas" are that you're making up bad scenarios as you go and trying to pass that off as "look! This is why you can't do that!!"

  11. #2171
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Honestly i wonder if you even play World of Warcraft: Shadowlands because most of what you say about class balance, quality of life improvements and mythic+
    Well, I am just being truthful. The class balance is in acceptable parameters with outliers reigned in quickly. Of course not all classes are doing exactly the same damage, but it's still a difference that allows for class diversity in all but the absolutely hardest content.

    As for the QoL. You should try some of the other MMOs out. WoW offers a lot in this regard, much more then most of them. The allowance for nearly all kinds of addons alone is a very generous feature that most other MMOs do not offer.
    The reaction time to bugs is extremely low, usually just a few hours or a day. In SWTOR for example you might wait a WEEK on a game breaking bug to be fixed, they do not do Hotfixes there.
    Not to mention that the WoW servers are extremely more stable then with other games and the game runs smoothly even when huge crowds of people are in one spot. Try raiding with 16 people in SWTOR and watch your FPS fall to 10 and lower, not to mention constantly having huge lag spikes purely coming from the server.

    I know saying positive things about the game is hugely unpopular on this forum, but it's a simple fact that WoW is superior to other MMOs. Sure they win out in one or two categories (usually graphics and transmogging) but that does not change the fact that when the full package is considered, WoW is still the best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    your incorrect comment about people wanting raid quality gear from world quests and LFR.
    If you actually read this very thread you will see that several people have voiced that opinion. Those that have been told that the Covenant Campaign offers 197 loot which is extremely close to Normal Raid loot, have additionally made it clear that this is not enough and they want Heroic and Mythic gear for their efforts in picking flowers.

  12. #2172
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I'm sure many do not know but I do because I've seen this asked many times before. Simply people who self-proclaim themselves as "hardcore" feel they're the only ones who deserve loot and anyone else getting loot will be the downfall and destruction of the game (this page is a perfect example of that).

    Some people just cannot dread the thought of casuals progressing at all. This has been a thing since vanilla. Not sure how many here played vanilla for real (many people claim they did but didn't to make themselves look like veterans) but when 2.0 hit and purple gear was given out to casuals, there were so many threats of class-action lawsuits on the forums. "I worked my butt off, those scrubs didn't!" and all other kinds of bologna. No lawsuits went through, by the way...

    Heaven forbid a game be accessible and have something for everyone.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The problem with your "ideas" are that you're making up bad scenarios as you go and trying to pass that off as "look! This is why you can't do that!!"
    I am simply stating what happens... you not being aware of it doesn't make it fiction its the problem with "good idea fairies"

  13. #2173
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I'm sure many do not know but I do because I've seen this asked many times before. Simply people who self-proclaim themselves as "hardcore" feel they're the only ones who deserve loot and anyone else getting loot will be the downfall and destruction of the game (this page is a perfect example of that).

    Some people just cannot dread the thought of casuals progressing at all. This has been a thing since vanilla. Not sure how many here played vanilla for real (many people claim they did but didn't to make themselves look like veterans) but when 2.0 hit and purple gear was given out to casuals, there were so many threats of class-action lawsuits on the forums. "I worked my butt off, those scrubs didn't!" and all other kinds of bologna. No lawsuits went through, by the way...
    Heaven forbid a game be accessible and have something for everyone.
    Do you think people doing pet battles in orgrimmar get ilvl 226 loot?
    And no, I am definitely not trying to be an ass or sarcastic, I just want to know your opinion on this loot debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
    Mr. Smith about the cost of Triple-spec
    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

  14. #2174
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    This is not a thread about Final Fantasy 14 and the "Game vs. Game" argument is derailing the thread. Please return to the actual topic of the thread.
    Boy you people

  15. #2175
    The reason this argument is pointless is because there are a lot of geared people who do mythic raiding and are also terrible at the game, they think they are the ones who deserve it and can't fathom that they are also the terrible players who are annoying to deal with for the actually skilled players out there.

    This thread is essentially 109 pages of bad players arguing with other bad players about which version of bad is more deserving of loot. It's good for a laugh though, so please carry on.

  16. #2176
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarnage86 View Post
    Btw when i create this post, was because my brother that play wow in a mythic guild 8/10 get super mad at me back when i created this post because i dropped a good trinket from denathrius hc (that i have done with his help i admit), and he know that after i got my 10/10 hc i'll have frozen, so he got mad as hell.
    In respond to his madness i say to him "bro, if i can pass it i will for sure, but ffs why the best item that can have helped me before drop only at the end when i quit?"

    Sry for the wrong use of casual btw, i should have use bad player instead

    Bye all btw, i move as suggested to other game, and i find lootershooter a good home for me (the division 2 in particular)
    Just to return in-topic...

  17. #2177
    Warchief Lulbalance's Avatar
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    Very few skilled players actually no-life pve. Skilled players are usually skilled in other games and wow is casual for them, they arent the type to care about others having good loot because they're skilled.

    The ones who get mad about this are garbage players using gear as a crutch.. that's most raiders tbh. PVP is a little different but as any good pvper and they'll say gear should be streamlined so the competition is pure. They want to outplay you.

  18. #2178
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    Boy you people
    And the thread kinda died out right after that. No we're not allowed to suggest changes to WoW from other games, everything needs to be 100% original.

  19. #2179
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Did you just create a strawman for your strawman while inventing a strawman to use in your example?
    If that’s what you classify a real example as then sure

    It’s not like it’s even the worst thing about this thread I mean we still haven’t gotten an answer as to how the game is actually tailored against the casual players or how it favors the so called elitists

  20. #2180
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    If that’s what you classify a real example as then sure

    It’s not like it’s even the worst thing about this thread I mean we still haven’t gotten an answer as to how the game is actually tailored against the casual players or how it favors the so called elitists
    I guess its strawman inception... I admit its hard to argue with that.

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