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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    I don't have any friends and I'm just not that socially adept. M+ the first times I tried it were also extremely stressful. One wrong step equals a death and that screws over not just you, which means you get yelled at.

    I just want to do random battlegrounds and quest/gather on my own. But if I can't have a chance to survive then what place do I have in the game?
    Just had a few bad experiences, if you want to lock yourself out of the whole World (of Warcraft) because you will get yelled at by people you will probably never meet, that's your choice, but I can assure you it is not a good one.
    And about having your place in the game? The reason this game, and games of this genre are great, is the competition aspect. You want your place under the sun, you have to make it for yourself, or take it from someone (lol what?).
    Bottom line, you can do it.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    To make subsequent boss kills easier to do? Come on, it is not that difficult.
    So even average joe want that "tools" too! He need it because he's not so good at the game and with it maybe i can finish a baseline normal/hc!
    is this bad design??

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I've explained multiple times but you don't care. So ill ask the opposite. If gear you get from content you do is more than enough to do it easily, why do you care that other ppl are wearing slightly better gear? Why do you care what these other players are wearing?
    You actually never answered. You just keep finding new ways to say "IT SHOULDN'T BE THAT WAY" but you never explain how it will make the game worse. You just say it will somehow hurt your feelings.

    I care that ilvl inflation keeps screwing up the game and breaking it. I care that people who like to casually pvp are locked out of the mode because they get stomped by people with absurdly inflated gear. I care that a lack of sense of completion causes players to quickly get dissatisfied and quit. I care that real power rewards have been replaced with tons of cosmetics so that we can lock power rewards behind levels of difficulty that aren't fun for most players. I'd like to make power progress for doing the things I like doing.

    What you are basically telling me is that I should be happy with cosmetic rewards for the things I like doing in game, so that you and 17 of your friends can get whatever weird satisfaction you get out of me not having fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    That is ingame tho? in the form of great vault? you do your +14s weekly and you get 226 loot, and yes +14s are by far easier than mythic raiding as a whole, if you cant do +14, just do +12s and you gear yourself with 223 slowly until you can start doing +14s and so on, or wait, is this too slow for you and you want a better and faster system? getting mythic gear without mythic raiding isnt good enough for you?
    +14 is not average content. That is extreme content done by extremely few players. What a bizarre example
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarnage86 View Post
    So even average joe want that "tools" too! He need it because he's not so good at the game and with it maybe i can finish a baseline normal/hc!
    is this bad design??
    And blizz is aware of this, thats why they keep nerfing the raid + great vault existing, reading this forum i feel like people ignore stuff on purpose cause they dont fit their narrative xd

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    You wont get to him, its just another case of "i had a couple bad experiences so the content is awful and the community around it is awful and i wont partake in such an abomination", its almost like "i did 5 m+ with illidan players and they were toxic so everyone on illidan is toxic" which is stupid on every level, and yes some people believe this.
    Or maybe the game mode is inherently anti-social and toxic and playing it isn't fun for people who don't like being constantly kicked from groups and screamed at while learning?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I've explained multiple times but you don't care. So ill ask the opposite. If gear you get from content you do is more than enough to do it easily, why do you care that other ppl are wearing slightly better gear? Why do you care what these other players are wearing?
    Until player see a better "tools" (equip) they want it, thinking that is the reason they can't be their goals.
    If u give them the tools, in a slowy progress ways, at the end what remains is pure skill check, and there is where average joe will stop.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarnage86 View Post
    I mean,
    real skilled players can complete their goals even with not so good equip (very good player in normal gear can complete hc, with hc gear can complete mythic)
    while casual need that gear to pass that goals....
    Why skilled player got so mad about??? at the end of the day their are still better and skilled!
    Or after all this wow years we still make the same error and think gear should be a reward for skill instead that a pure instrument to a goal???
    What the heck a top 100-1000 player need mythic loot for, if they close raid/m+ in hc gear???
    It's like a professional driver/pilot going mad the normal driver can do the same route but with autopilot and a better car....
    Or football/soccer player going mad to sunday friendly bob about having better shooes and equipment....
    eeuuhhh simple to get to a higher skill level you need to break to certain levels of stats. knowing the tactics to a boss fight is 1 thing. But have enough hp as a tank to survive it is a other.
    And if that skilled player never gets drops and see a goof running around getting all the drops that makes him mad.


    It's like a professional driver/pilot going mad the normal driver can do the same route but with autopilot and a better car....
    But if that skilled pilot after all of his training has to do it in a beaten down cesna plane or a lada ( car) and the normal pilot/driver who works the same job keeps getting tesla's, bmw etc he might get mad.

    Or football/soccer player going mad to sunday friendly bob about having better shooes and equipment....
    soccor player for the BIG club gets no shoe's or broken down shoe's from the club, needs to play in his own bought clothing but gets the same money as friendly bob...who gets from the same club ( but he is a the sunday "dad" team) but gets shoe's etc.


    Let me explain it in WoW terms. There was a raid 2 or 3 expansions ago. I was still raiding mythic. As gaurdian tank ( worst tank at that moment). But in our guild there was no one else to tank. There was a boss we had a hard time with. Because even with all CD used to negate 1 phase (and all external cd) it did not work. Looked to forums and all. Only worked after i got a big boost in stats gotten from gear. that was very low drop for me.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    +14 is not average content. That is extreme content done by extremely few players. What a bizarre example
    Did you miss the "and so on" part? probably you did, if you cant do +14s atm you slowly start climbing up until you reach that point, do you think mythic raiders started the patch being 226+? or they started throwing themselves to content with shitty heroic dungeons gear? i can assure you its the later.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Effort should reflect reward... otherwise what incentive is there to do harder content?

    And don't give me the typical bullshit response of doing it for the 'fun' of it.
    Ya, it really irks me too when people try to use words like fun and video games in the same sentence. It's like who out there actually plays video games for fun?

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by loppy88 View Post
    Just had a few bad experiences, if you want to lock yourself out of the whole World (of Warcraft) because you will get yelled at by people you will probably never meet, that's your choice, but I can assure you it is not a good one.
    And about having your place in the game? The reason this game, and games of this genre are great, is the competition aspect. You want your place under the sun, you have to make it for yourself, or take it from someone (lol what?).
    Bottom line, you can do it.
    I'm not a competitive person and PvE is supposed to be a cooperative activity. I just wanted to find a group that treats it that way. But yeah bad experiences might keep a person from trying again. Is that so weird?

    What was wrong with letting me do what I used to do and still have fun? It didn't hurt anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Or maybe the game mode is inherently anti-social and toxic and playing it isn't fun for people who don't like being constantly kicked from groups and screamed at while learning?
    Thank you for that.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Prove it.
    And how? How TF do you prove something like this if you don't have the data. Just like any of your "opinions", it cannot be proven if you do not have the data. And even if you have it, you can hardly compare this game RN to back in the day, and know if things just correlate or have a causal connection. Especially since the demographic of who plays WoW might be plenty different, which we also do not know.

    You keep talking about how know about game design concepts, so did the OG devs, and so do the devs now. Seems like it is not so clear cut what is right or wrong, huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I like dungeons. I like normal pvp. I like the occasional raid. That said, I stopped playing retail (as did all of my friends) because the game has increasingly catered to people like you and told the rest of us "lol heres a new battle pet". Way back in the day I did progression raid and push cutting edge content, but my tastes as a gamer changed and the content became so absurdly, comically difficult that I find it unimmersive and annoying more than difficult.
    You can still progress your character. You play less, ergo you get less gear. Why is this an issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    And most of them would have more fun if they could also enjoy getting new gear.
    And you are game dev? Character progression on its own is good for nothing. It is about the experience, the feelings of a person. Getting the item has only value if it is perceived valuable. Work, and maybe even a bit of frustration need to balanced with frequency of loot, to give you dopamine kicks often enough but not too often to keep going.
    Handing out loot for logging in and doing a world quest literally changes nothing.

    How often have you done content, which could not give you an upgrade in some form, without friends?

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Did you miss the "and so on" part? probably you did, if you cant do +14s atm you slowly start climbing up until you reach that point, do you think mythic raiders started the patch being 226+? or they started throwing themselves to content with shitty heroic dungeons gear? i can assure you its the later.
    The average player does not want to play breakneck extreme difficulty content, much less play it with the type of condescending, elitist, toxic psychopaths that populate the upper echelons of that content. My wife quit wow after the *third* rape threat doing dungeons, and went back to FF14 where people don't do that shit. That's just reality, and if you maniac gatekeepers keep getting your way the game is going to keep having fewer and fewer resources dedicated to it until you are getting a patch every 8 months if you are lucky to expand your 3-zone expansion that only has two raid tiers.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  13. #233
    I don't think everyone needs mythic raid gear, but I do think everyone of every type of style of play needs a progression path that lasts longer than a couple of weeks. As is, only high end raiders, mythic+ players, and high end PVPers get that. Most content is rendered kind of pointless and that's a shame.

    The MoP model was best, at least for PVE. Just throw more dungeons and maybe get rid of hiding badge gear behind rep gates, and it'd be perfect. Everyone had an endgame in MoP, pretty much.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    I'm not a competitive person and PvE is supposed to be a cooperative activity. I just wanted to find a group that treats it that way. But yeah bad experiences might keep a person from trying again. Is that so weird?
    Yeah, locking yourself out of content from a couple of bad experiences means you are generalizing and yes, this is weird and a mistake, just like the "i played with illidan players in 5 m+ and they were toxic so everyone on illidan is toxic" example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The average player does not want to play breakneck extreme difficulty content, much less play it with the type of condescending, elitist, toxic psychopaths that populate the upper echelons of that content.
    The elitist and toxic guys you mention dont populate the "upper echelons" at all, they are actually playing with average joe, the difference is that these average toxic players think themselves as good players when they actually arent so they trash anyone that they consider worse than them, the toxicity when playing high end is actually minimal and the toxic guys that play on high end are well known in every server xd but you wont believe me anyways until you actually play with these people and realize that what you say is wrong, sorry for your wife experiences but it was worth to clarify that you were wrong.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    And how? How TF do you prove something like this if you don't have the data. Just like any of your "opinions", it cannot be proven if you do not have the data. And even if you have it, you can hardly compare this game RN to back in the day, and know if things just correlate or have a causal connection. Especially since the demographic of who plays WoW might be plenty different, which we also do not know.
    Yeah, probably shouldn't say shit you can't prove, huh?

    You keep talking about how know about game design concepts, so did the OG devs, and so do the devs now. Seems like it is not so clear cut what is right or wrong, huh?
    The devs now clearly don't have a very coherent direction. What a silly point. You think professionals can't make mistakes?

    You can still progress your character. You play less, ergo you get less gear. Why is this an issue?
    This has nothing to do with time investment. In fact, the argument being made here is that someone who raid logs for mythics should get BiS but someone that plays the game 4 hours per day and does all kinds of non-extreme content should never get BiS.

    And you are game dev? Character progression on its own is good for nothing. It is about the experience, the feelings of a person. Getting the item has only value if it is perceived valuable. Work, and maybe even a bit of frustration need to balanced with frequency of loot, to give you dopamine kicks often enough but not too often to keep going.
    Handing out loot for logging in and doing a world quest literally changes nothing.
    I agree that world quests shouldn't give BiS rewards. World quests should, however, be a path to leveling reputations that could unlock some BiS.

    How often have you done content, which could not give you an upgrade in some form, without friends?
    How often have a done content that can't give me upgrades, when no friends were present? Pretty rarely. But more often than that I've declined to do content because the rewards were insufficient or uninteresting. For example, even when I could get upgrades from random PvP in SL, I didn't bother because I knew the rewards would be outgeared by other content in a trivial amount of time compared to what it took to upgrade them with honor. If random BGs could eventually get me some BiS, I might still be playing retail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Yeah, locking yourself out of content from a couple of bad experiences means you are generalizing and yes, this is weird and a mistake, just like the "i played with illidan players in 5 m+ and they were toxic so everyone on illidan is toxic" example.

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    The elitist and toxic guys you mention dont populate the "upper echelons" at all, they are actually playing with average joe, the difference is that these average toxic players think themselves as good players when they actually arent so they trash anyone that they consider worse than them, the toxicity when playing high end is actually minimal and the toxic guys that play on high end are well known in every server xd but you wont believe me anyways until you actually play with these people and realize that what you say is wrong, sorry for your wife experiences but it was worth to clarify that you were wrong.
    When you invent a magic wand to tell those people from the "good people" when doing a PUG, let me know. Until then, your delineation is meaningless. It's like saying "Not every chocolate on this plate is poison, so don't be afraid". Well, that's nice, but if you can't tell me which is poisonous I don't want your fuckin chocolate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    I'm not a competitive person and PvE is supposed to be a cooperative activity. I just wanted to find a group that treats it that way. But yeah bad experiences might keep a person from trying again. Is that so weird?

    What was wrong with letting me do what I used to do and still have fun? It didn't hurt anyone.

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    Thank you for that.
    Unfortunately, some of these guys actually derive an excessive and distressing amount of pleasure from the fact that the game is ruined for you. Nothing makes them happier.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You actually never answered. You just keep finding new ways to say "IT SHOULDN'T BE THAT WAY" but you never explain how it will make the game worse. You just say it will somehow hurt your feelings.

    I care that ilvl inflation keeps screwing up the game and breaking it. I care that people who like to casually pvp are locked out of the mode because they get stomped by people with absurdly inflated gear. I care that a lack of sense of completion causes players to quickly get dissatisfied and quit. I care that real power rewards have been replaced with tons of cosmetics so that we can lock power rewards behind levels of difficulty that aren't fun for most players. I'd like to make power progress for doing the things I like doing.

    What you are basically telling me is that I should be happy with cosmetic rewards for the things I like doing in game, so that you and 17 of your friends can get whatever weird satisfaction you get out of me not having fun.

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    +14 is not average content. That is extreme content done by extremely few players. What a bizarre example
    So the gear you get is more than capable for the content you do so ilvl inflation doesn't actually affect you. I think ppl also over inflate the issues of casual pvp in bgs. In bhs there are a few highly geared players but most are fresh 60s trying to get some easy 197 gear.

    You can't strawman that it's me and 17 ppl lol.

    I said before, I think there is value in the prestige of the best players gearing the best gear. Fun fact, thats not me before you try and paint me as an elitist again. I think ppl that put the time and effort into the hardest contest deserve the easiest time in other content. Its my opinion. You're prob about to fire back with some statements about my opinion being factually wrong

  17. #237
    wtf ... it's like saying dumb people should have better salaries cause smart people manage it better

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    When you invent a magic wand to tell those people from the "good people" when doing a PUG, let me know. Until then, your delineation is meaningless. It's like saying "Not every chocolate on this plate is poison, so don't be afraid". Well, that's nice, but if you can't tell me which is poisonous I don't want your fuckin chocolate.
    I mean, you dont play on high end, i do, yet you somehow know better than me how toxic the high end environment is, ok i guess?

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    So the gear you get is more than capable for the content you do so ilvl inflation doesn't actually affect you. I think ppl also over inflate the issues of casual pvp in bgs. In bhs there are a few highly geared players but most are fresh 60s trying to get some easy 197 gear.

    You can't strawman that it's me and 17 ppl lol.

    I said before, I think there is value in the prestige of the best players gearing the best gear. Fun fact, thats not me before you try and paint me as an elitist again. I think ppl that put the time and effort into the hardest contest deserve the easiest time in other content. Its my opinion. You're prob about to fire back with some statements about my opinion being factually wrong
    The best gear you can get from random BGs will have you getting your teeth kicked in by anyone who does extreme content.

    You don't seem to fundamentally understand the difference between restating your opinion and making an argument:

    "I said before, I think there is value in the prestige of the best players gearing the best gear."

    Yes, I know, you've said this 500 times in this thread, but you still refuse to explain what that value is and why that value can't be gained from getting the best gear faster than other people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    I mean, you dont play on high end, i do, yet you somehow know better than me how toxic the high end environment is, ok i guess?
    Hint: Toxic people don't see a toxicity problem, because they feel right at home in the sewer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    wtf ... it's like saying dumb people should have better salaries cause smart people manage it better
    I too play video games to emulate the experience of my office job.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    This has nothing to do with time investment. In fact, the argument being made here is that someone who raid logs for mythics should get BiS but someone that plays the game 4 hours per day and does all kinds of non-extreme content should never get BiS.
    So its not really about casual. You're talking about unskilled players. You're talking about "bads"

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