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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarnage86 View Post
    That's why pvp in a MMO is rubbish... Pure pvp is skill vs skill. Remove equip factor and see who is the better player XD
    LOL even blizzard do that in arena championship!!!
    beat me to it. I can't stand mmo pvp. GW2 did it best, with everyone having the same level / gear level.

  2. #402
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Lighter View Post
    Are they? covenants have usually 80% plus for bis damage covenants.

    If anything the " I do what I wanna do" is the provable minority of a minority.
    Psssst. You aren't taking into account the 50 millions or so of pet battle lovers that the defenders of the statu quo have magically pulled out of their collective behind. IT UzNt RePrUZUnTeTiVE!1!!1!, even when the data was taken directly from the Blizzard API lmao.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Then you havent seen this thread, people legit want a way to progress towards 226 bis gear, a path easier ofc than great vault, and thats what people argue about, if some1 cant see that ilvl is very limited (the clear example being covenant gear capped at 200) then thats another issue and honestly idk why people cant upgrade that gear, or wq gear until 207 or 210 or so.
    They are just moving the goal posts - they probably exist, but i have not seen a single person claim "casuals" shouldn't get any gear beyond leveling gear. I HAVE seen people say "if you want mythic raid gear, go raid mythic". And i absolutely have seen people say I dont want to do mythic, but i should be able to get the same gear and same ilvl".

    I have advocated for years for a causal gearing path - something that better suits the way they play the game. If a player typically gets gear from WQ, they can use WQ to work towards a set with bonuses that do things like increase mounted speed, remove dismounting, faster hearth or second hearth - etc etc - things that directly benefit them in their chosen gameplay path. This I am all for, and as i said, have pushed for since god knows when, even though i wasnt playing causally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  4. #404
    Effort vs reward. Obviously how one measures effort and dictates reward varies. There will always be those who place a lot of value over which many would find worthless.

    I am a supporter of alternative methods of progression as long as the effort to reward ratio is somewhat maintained. Someone who spends less time doing less difficult stuff should get rewards that match. Meanwhile someone who has just as little time was does more difficult stuff should get better rewards to match. Someone spending more time doing more difficult stuff should get even better rewards.

    As a theme park MMO there should be multiple paths of progression while rewarding those who put more effort into the game. Also casual does not equal unskilled. Hate how many use casual in such a demeaning way while speaking on behalf of them.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarnage86 View Post
    So even average joe want that "tools" too! He need it because he's not so good at the game and with it maybe i can finish a baseline normal/hc!
    is this bad design??
    Why do you pick WoW then?
    I don't get it. Some people want x changes in WoW, but those things already exist in other games.
    Why just not play those games.

    You want the best stuff, because you know it is hard to get. If it weren't it'd be meaningless. Maybe not this time around, but 2 patches down the line.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarnage86 View Post
    That's why pvp in a MMO is rubbish... Pure pvp is skill vs skill. Remove equip factor and see who is the better player XD
    LOL even blizzard do that in arena championship!!!

    its not even just gear, its class balance, etc too. Thats why all of the PvP focused MMO's are dead or on life support. The MMO community of people that actually play and enjoy PvP is incredibly small. Remove PvP from WoW and the game lives on. Most hardcore PvPers will move on but the game continues. Remove PvE content from WoW and we probably don't see another expansion post shadowlands.



    Thats why most of the competitive scene is around shooters/fighter games. Everyones equal.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Effort should reflect reward... otherwise what incentive is there to do harder content?

    And don't give me the typical bullshit response of doing it for the 'fun' of it.
    10+ years of raiding, after so many gear resets and there are people who are still doing it for the gear?

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarnage86 View Post
    I mean,
    real skilled players can complete their goals even with not so good equip (very good player in normal gear can complete hc, with hc gear can complete mythic)
    while casual need that gear to pass that goals....
    Why skilled player got so mad about??? at the end of the day their are still better and skilled!
    Or after all this wow years we still make the same error and think gear should be a reward for skill instead that a pure instrument to a goal???
    What the heck a top 100-1000 player need mythic loot for, if they close raid/m+ in hc gear???
    It's like a professional driver/pilot going mad the normal driver can do the same route but with autopilot and a better car....
    Or football/soccer player going mad to sunday friendly bob about having better shooes and equipment....
    You obviously have no clue how tightly the higher level M+ and Mythic Raids are tuned. Outside of the top 0,1% that raid for World First everyone needs to gear up to do them.
    So for most it is not just about skills, it's about the effort put in to aquire gear and then reach the point where they are able to push higher content and complete their goals. Sure there were a few hundred people reaching KSM in 200 gear in week two, but everyone else had to put the work in. They ran key after key until they got routes down, got used to SL changes to their characters and until they reached an appropiate gear level.

    In short people invested a lot of time and effort into getting to the gear and skill level they need to push for their end goals.

    Casuals (or specifically those Casuals that post on this forum) don't want to put that effort and time in. But they want the rewards for it. Why? Not because they need them, WQs and LFR can be easily done with free Covenant gear. No they want them because they want them and they feel it is unfair they aren't just given whatever they want. It's entitlement and lazyness in it purest form.

    If Casuals want better gear for whatever reason they will have to do it the same way everyone else is. Through effort. If they can't be arsed to do that, too bad.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    but that is a terrible comparison, becasue you are talking about results rather then the tools. gear is a tool. normal driver using the same car as a professional, is NOT going to be able to get the same result, the same finesse, the same speed. because they do not have the skill, so even giving them exactly the same tools is not going to make them as good. and THAT is the point. being salty over casual players getting good gear is NOT taking away from your skill. you will STILL have an edge. tools do not make a master. a master can take even shittiest tools and create a masterpiece. an amateur could be given the most amazing, highest end tools and their result is going to look worse then a master using crappy ones. so the only thing that this gatekeeping of gear shows is that people who are doing it realize that they are not nearly as skilled as they pretend to be.
    It's a good comparison. You have gear that increases your power but you also have nerfs to the content comming all the time (talking raids here). The nerfs could be translated to driving assist for the none professional, whereas gear would be the car.

    If one player did 3/10 mythic the week mythic was open and another player did it at the end of the patch then they would be treated equal. Despite the first player having worse gear and having to deal with overtuning and in general just more difficult fights.

    Anyway, we're agreeing on the general thing about gear not taking away from skill, "shittiest tool and make a masterpiece" etc.

    My point was more about it being a psycological thing that lessen the precived skill of a player (like my 3/10 example).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    I don't think that's true. I'm a huge Beatles/Led Zep fan, but I appreciate and enjoy the music I hear at my local bar or wherever just as much.
    That was a generalisation. It doesn't apply all the time nor is it the only truth :P But it could be one reason why some react in that way.
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    why do casuals think they deserve full 226 when they dont run high keys, high rated pvp, or mythic raiding?
    He says this now, but then he's probably demanding $20 minimum wage for walmart greeters and a universal income.

    If someone pays for the game they are entitled to enjoying the entirety of the product they paid for without artificial gates being put in place that restrict those who do not have all day, every day to spend on a game. Neither rating nor rated pvp are anything more than mechanisms to create a fake sense of progress where there is no. What do you do? Repeat the same thing over-and-over... A rated BG may allow you to cherry-pick a team and set up voice comms, but if you were truly a skilled player you'd just know what to do and help the team do it. Raids are a joke and a tired, worn-out "end game" gate that really are far out of touch with with the current state of these types of games.

    It really makes no sense from a business standpoint either - if you receive the best gear for completing quests or readily available group content (i.e. dungeons or world boss type objectives) then there is a reason for players to resub... but if you hit a wall at 200 ilvl and either have to slog through arena/RBGs or raids then there's no incentive to continue paying as you are effectively done.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Casuals (or specifically those Casuals that post on this forum) don't want to put that effort and time in. But they want the rewards for it. Why? Not because they need them, WQs and LFR can be easily done with free Covenant gear. No they want them because they want them and they feel it is unfair they aren't just given whatever they want. It's entitlement and lazyness in it purest form.

    If Casuals want better gear for whatever reason they will have to do it the same way everyone else is. Through effort. If they can't be arsed to do that, too bad.
    Give your sanctimonious screeching a rest, dude. You may be priviledged enough to have 8+ hours a day to devote to an old game but that's just you. And I'd wager nobody has a problem actually playing the game. It's not hard or challenging in any way, and if you believe it is, you've set the bar awfully low. What most people have a problem with is trying to organize 10-15-20+ groups to do content. Nobody paid for the game and the fee to sit in queues for minutes to hours. LFR tosses you a bone but fails to offer the best gear. Why? Why is it that raiding through LFR should drop inferior gear to manually organized raids?

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    How does gear distinguish good players from bad, though?
    I can go buy a CE full run right now, if I wanted, and I would have 226s and the achievement.
    You would have no idea that I purchased it (unless ofc I told you), so now you have a false understanding that I'm "good".
    Exactly. but there is still a lot of people who make the mental equation of better gear = better player. As higher r.io = better player. And so on.

    These same players are the ones that don't want "casuals" to get their same gear because they're not "as good as them". Maybe it wasn't clear in my post, but i don't agree with the points i made above, since my mentality is now to play the game because i enjoy it and be content with whatever i can bring home. Gear/rewards are literally the last thing i worry about (or better i know that gear make my character better so i invest time into being a better player as much my skills allow me to be).
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    You may be priviledged enough to have 8+ hours a day to devote to an old game but that's just you.
    You need 8 hours a day of raiding to get cutting edge? color me surprised and in the meantime tell me which guilds are those so i never go there.

  13. #413
    I'm not a particularly skilled player, but I am a mythic raider so I am on the extreme end of the gear curve.

    I don't mind less-focused players getting more gear, but not when those alternate gearing paths end up as expected content by raid guilds. A few months into the tier once our gear grind is done, you can all have full 226 from World Quests for all I care, so long as there's never a point where I myself have to do world quests

    I'm 100% for the return of Titanforging. Super minority opinion amongst the crowds I've raided with since WoD, but I really, really enjoyed the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    You need 8 hours a day of raiding to get cutting edge? color me surprised and in the meantime tell me which guilds are those so i never go there.
    It's a bit mad eh? The best thing about Shadowlands is you don't need to play much (if at all) outside of raids/maybe dungeons anymore to be up to snuff gear-wise. I'm currently playing 7 hours a week (our two 3.5 hour raid nights) & we should hopefully kill Sire Mythic this or next reset.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Exactly. but there is still a lot of people who make the mental equation of better gear = better player. As higher r.io = better player. And so on.
    Thankfully warcratlogs exist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    It's a bit mad eh? The best thing about Shadowlands is you don't need to play much (if at all) outside of raids/maybe dungeons anymore to be up to snuff gear-wise. I'm currently playing 7 hours a week (our two 3.5 hour raid nights) & we should hopefully kill Sire Mythic this or next reset.
    Its fine, for the people that never touched that content, mythic raiders are some kind of no life peeps that play the game 24/7 to achieve stuff ingame, i just laugh at the idea.

  15. #415
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    Post

    There're 2 directions of this topic:
    1) ilvl/power inflation (together with correct organization of characteristics and itemization)
    2) content overlap

    1. Not literally gap between floor and ceiling, but even between stretch and actual ceiling, this was discussed in t/wf topics, this was discussed in topics about progress and organization of characteristics (you should minimize such tendencies, which means you should be more cunning, but also more circumspect, with characteristics and bonuses of corresponding stages of progress).

    2. paths of progress for different activities may naturally differ, BUT (and here we need first to sort out with question "what is what?"):
    a) open world... this is common place for all players from time immemorial, it's not important if PvP or PvE, if instantced encounters (raiders) or role-playing or onlookers (passers-by) - all these people can and should be allowed to be here, this is a whole common world for interaction in any momemt of playing (hence constant my criticism of devs with their "dividing" it into shards/phases/WM and other nonsense with mention also of chat policy, which shouldn't happened), which means that it shouldn't provide separate development path (there is nothing to divide, we're all here - PvP/PvE/craftsmans/travelers/role-players/..; if we take into consideration, for example, what is offered up here, then significant bonus is something that will be very wrong to insert, since you forget about inheritance of expansions, you again will fall into trap with "borrowed powers"/flights and return to question of how to deal with them, in short - I won't highly recommend it); on the other hand, no one interferes to organize "difficult areas" (and here I'm once again inclined to spit with hatred in their scaling, this was often mentioned in topics about it) - geographical outdoor progress/instances/elite areas, etc
    b) dungeons... my perception of these game's elements is very simple - these are stages and auxiliary elements of obtaining content (they all are the SAME PvE element), first you do 5, then go to more difficult 10, and finally 20; see the problem? there is no place for solo players to progress in such game organization, because they have solo games (even if with cooperative) to get this (I'm not against various Brawler guilds, Mage towers and challenges, but they shouldn't be stages of "priory" progress, just separate cosmetic elements); all these "solo tears" aren't interesting to me at all; most likely, some of you will say that "this is bad" and I'll agree with you, but only with wording, and not with what you mean, bad thing here is that game doesn't explain/teach to perceive it this way from its start by adequate design (and this is stuff about which I can talk endlessly, about all wrong design decisions and elements, that devs have organized for the sake of (apparently) their own greed)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    game doesn't recommend appropriate behavior in key places' design, which means it doesn't teach, doesn't weed out at initial stage - there're no natural conditions for formation of community, which means "what has grown, has already grown" means whining, toxicity and crying mice chewing cactus at final stage of game design (it's too late, initial stage has been missed)
    c) complexity... what is described in points (a)+(b) is natural valid way of organizing complexities and presenting content in parallel (together) with progress (aka outdoor-1 → 5+outdoor-2 → 10+outdoor-3 → 20, just like that, also); in general, but not only, there's also stuff, that we discussed separately in instances' design (each of them may have additional/local elements of complication/continuations/offshoots, which completely discredits all their turmoil around LFR/M+, which simply don't have place here in form, in which you're getting them now); as last one thing I'd want to talk about current gap in complexities on scale, which isn't needed, there is nothing wrong if "more skillful" players'll close content earlier, and "less organized" ones later without haste/fears to lose something/desire to "buy" it, and "lazy" ones do it only even just during next expansion, I recommend you to choose your golden mean of player's level, the one that is most pleasant/useful to you and focus only on them, don't be greedy, leave hide intact
    Gehco
    We need to flatten the line, not peak at three things, and then forget the rest
    d) PvP... everything is simple here and we have discussed this more than once separately.

    Due to stages' sameness of PvE content, those who have "gone" ahead in progress will have to take into account what will be useful not due to mechanics(items/badges/reagents/professions)/history(content)/interest(fun/help), but simply due to overlap to return to previous stages of progress in order to maximize own outcome, guess where this (when people are forced to) leads? I'll hint with compare: (my case) embittered people that don't want/are loners/lazy to participate in group progress, they'll simply leave, it's not difficult for them, nothing keeps them here (theoretically - less money for devs, but it's very likely that only if looking at it in short term), (your case) embittered people can and do participate in group progress, they aren't limited in access to all content (they have both desire and skill) and they stay in game spreading their anger to everyone they meet (this is especially clearly reflected when "going back" to stuff that it seems like they have already finished a long time ago). So, what do you think about such situation? I think, that you yourself should be interested in less overlap with these people, which means-s..?

    ps. Main thing is not to forget that more stages there are, the more difficult it is to minimize gap (i/lvls) and the more heavy load bears on catch-up mechanic and balance (entire game's one, not just specific expansion), on classes design, stress for players. I understand that all current development decisions are made to delay progress process, but not to provide more content, only make it cheaper to develop and maintain, still with most wealth outcome, but now we are talking more about spherical in vacuum hardworking and responsible devs, aren't we?
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2022-02-16 at 05:55 AM.
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  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarnage86 View Post
    I mean,
    real skilled players can complete their goals even with not so good equip (very good player in normal gear can complete hc, with hc gear can complete mythic)
    while casual need that gear to pass that goals....
    Why skilled player got so mad about??? at the end of the day their are still better and skilled!
    Or after all this wow years we still make the same error and think gear should be a reward for skill instead that a pure instrument to a goal???
    What the heck a top 100-1000 player need mythic loot for, if they close raid/m+ in hc gear???
    It's like a professional driver/pilot going mad the normal driver can do the same route but with autopilot and a better car....
    Or football/soccer player going mad to sunday friendly bob about having better shooes and equipment....
    While i agree wholeheartedly with your point your writing skills on display here are terrible.

    And to answer your question: E-peen and the creeping realisation that they're not as good as they pretend to be.

    Gear keeps that gap between them and "unskilled" people wider thus lending a shred of credibility to the idea that they, indeed, are better.


    But as a devil's advocate: The skillless too often argue for making it take longer or requiring more arbitrary thresholds, as it delays the moment at which they are confronted with the fact that even their superior gear cannot make up for their lack of quality at playing the game.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  17. #417
    Eh, I find that the title of the thread shows OP is misinterpreting why people are vocal about rewarding good gear from low tier content as "being mad about casuals getting gear" when that's just a byproduct. The real reason is reward structure. And it's fairly simple tbh. Giving out end game gear from low content is like giving end game weapons from the first mob you kill in any RPG or game for that matter. It clearly throws out the entire progression system to make an enjoyable experience.

    The entire idea is that you get better gear, so you can tackle harder content, to get better gear, so you can tackle harder content, etc etc. Just look at how games work and you see almost every single one that is an RPG have the same sort of reward structure. Because it works, because it is one of the enjoyable parts of RPGs.

    "Casuals" can ofc get good gear overtime without throwing out the entire progression system out the window. Which wow does, by using the GV. Which rewards higher gear than the content you do, at least for m+. But giving too much of high gear at a higher rate just hurts the entire game because the progression, which is a foundation of RPGs, gets ruined.

    Players aren't mad casuals are getting loot, players are mad because the game breaks.
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  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Because of awful drop rates in pve, pvp is literally the only reliable way to gear in Shadowlands.
    Gear should be hard to get and take time to get fully geared, it should take a player months of hard work to get everything they want, a player who doesnt put in that work doesnt need that level of gear, gear has been way too easy to aquire in many expansions and that is not a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    The gear random battlegrounds gives me does not help with random battlegrounds.

    It would be like requiring Mythic raid gear before you're allowed to queue for a heroic dungeon.
    Without high enough rating there is no point doing random BGs as you wont get anything from it, just pug PvP 2s or 3s and slowly work your rating up and you can buy better items, gear has been way too easy to aquire in recent expansions and makes it too easy for players who dont expect to do things for upgrades.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-03-31 at 08:18 AM.
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  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Gear should be hard to get and take time to get fully geared, it should take a player months of hard work to get everything they want, a player who doesnt put in that work doesnt need that level of gear, gear has been way too easy to aquire in many expansions and that is not a good thing.
    I'd say that regardless of gear level it should take you a while to be done, have something to work towards so to speak. The problem we're seeing right now is that casual players who don't participate in premade group content have a very shallow gear progression so they unsub very early on in the patch cycle. The quality of the gear is irrelevant really, the problem is that it's over way too fast.

    If you look at FFXIV that game has exactly what those players are after. They can farm a currency that's on a weekly cap and slowly work towards their BiS. It may not be the most exciting thing in the world but it does feel rewarding to slowly be getting stronger even if all you do is random matchmade dungeons and raids. Again the quality of the gear is irrelevant, it's the process of gear progression that's important.

    I think it's sad that Blizzard are pushing the bulk of their subscriber base away from their game and over to other games like FFXIV or even ESO in order to have a satisfying character progression. A lot of those players may not even return even if Blizzard were to offer them similar progression paths.

  20. #420
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Effort should reflect reward... otherwise what incentive is there to do harder content?

    And don't give me the typical bullshit response of doing it for the 'fun' of it.
    Today you get titles, mounts, achievements.

    I do agree to a degree tho.

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