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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Because of awful drop rates in pve, pvp is literally the only reliable way to gear in Shadowlands.
    Gear should be hard to get and take time to get fully geared, it should take a player months of hard work to get everything they want, a player who doesnt put in that work doesnt need that level of gear, gear has been way too easy to aquire in many expansions and that is not a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    The gear random battlegrounds gives me does not help with random battlegrounds.

    It would be like requiring Mythic raid gear before you're allowed to queue for a heroic dungeon.
    Without high enough rating there is no point doing random BGs as you wont get anything from it, just pug PvP 2s or 3s and slowly work your rating up and you can buy better items, gear has been way too easy to aquire in recent expansions and makes it too easy for players who dont expect to do things for upgrades.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-03-31 at 08:18 AM.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Gear should be hard to get and take time to get fully geared, it should take a player months of hard work to get everything they want, a player who doesnt put in that work doesnt need that level of gear, gear has been way too easy to aquire in many expansions and that is not a good thing.
    I'd say that regardless of gear level it should take you a while to be done, have something to work towards so to speak. The problem we're seeing right now is that casual players who don't participate in premade group content have a very shallow gear progression so they unsub very early on in the patch cycle. The quality of the gear is irrelevant really, the problem is that it's over way too fast.

    If you look at FFXIV that game has exactly what those players are after. They can farm a currency that's on a weekly cap and slowly work towards their BiS. It may not be the most exciting thing in the world but it does feel rewarding to slowly be getting stronger even if all you do is random matchmade dungeons and raids. Again the quality of the gear is irrelevant, it's the process of gear progression that's important.

    I think it's sad that Blizzard are pushing the bulk of their subscriber base away from their game and over to other games like FFXIV or even ESO in order to have a satisfying character progression. A lot of those players may not even return even if Blizzard were to offer them similar progression paths.

  3. #423
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Effort should reflect reward... otherwise what incentive is there to do harder content?

    And don't give me the typical bullshit response of doing it for the 'fun' of it.
    Today you get titles, mounts, achievements.

    I do agree to a degree tho.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Thankfully warcratlogs exist.
    Yes. But that actually requires the ability to read the logs and even there just checking the ilvl% rank can lead to incorrect evaluation - but at least it's something definitely more reliable and true than a score or ilvl.

    Anyway i found most people complaining about "casuals getting gear" don't even bother doing those extra steps.

    I am a casual myself. I don't care about mythic raiding, nor pushing keys - yet i'm doing now my 15s and while slower than many other people i'm getting my 226s. In the eyes of many people i shouldn't get that loot because even if i did the exact same content as them, i didn't do it fast enough or when they did it.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Gear should be hard to get and take time to get fully geared, it should take a player months of hard work to get everything they want, a player who doesnt put in that work doesnt need that level of gear, gear has been way too easy to aquire in many expansions and that is not a good thing.

    Without high enough rating there is no point doing random BGs as you wont get anything from it, just pug PvP 2s or 3s and slowly work your rating up and you can buy better items, gear has been way too easy to aquire in recent expansions and makes it too easy for players who dont expect to do things for upgrades.
    While I agree that gear should be hard to get but even then, why should it be restricted behind other content walls? If I dont have time to pvp and only do dungeons, shouldnt I be rewarded with appropriate gear for the level on dungeons I do? Lets take for example conduits. Normal raid is 200, heroic is 213 and mythic is 226. Why is dungeons only 200? Why not 200 til 15, 15-20 213 and 20+ 226? I do not want to raid and neither do most of pvpers so why is it like this? They removed set items from raids cause people who did not do raids felt forced to do em for set items cause they worked in dungeons and so on.
    You could argue that theres Venari but good luck with that when you are a unlucky druid.
    You could argue that conduits are not gear but they are char upgrades which are "required" to push harder content.
    Now I dont mind there being a ridiculous goals/posts for the gear upgrades in m+. Hell I wouldnt mind when its +20 that drops 220 or that they up the gear after the 2-3 weeks of mythic raiding.
    The biggest point I see that blizzard seems to fail is that if you offer a different ways to gear, keep it consistent. Its the same as for example, healer items only dropped from raid but tank items dropped only from dungeons and DPS items only came from pvp. Wouldnt that be ridiculous? But it basically is that atm.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Psssst. You aren't taking into account the 50 millions or so of pet battle lovers that the defenders of the statu quo have magically pulled out of their collective behind. IT UzNt RePrUZUnTeTiVE!1!!1!, even when the data was taken directly from the Blizzard API lmao.
    That data only tracks about a month back in time. No self respecting casual player is still subscribed and/or active when there's nothing to do for them in the game.

    They need to give us data that stretches back to the launch of shadowlands in order to rely on it as proof of anything really.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I'd say that regardless of gear level it should take you a while to be done, have something to work towards so to speak. The problem we're seeing right now is that casual players who don't participate in premade group content have a very shallow gear progression so they unsub very early on in the patch cycle. The quality of the gear is irrelevant really, the problem is that it's over way too fast.
    They need some sort of progression yes, specially cause wq gear and covenant is like 200 or 203 tops cant remember right now, but this path needs to be in line with the other progression paths that require more work, cause if you suddenly start giving out 226 faster and easier than even the great vault (which is what some people actually think they are entitled to get) then you just shit on the existing progression paths that no one needs to argue, are harder.

    So all in all yes these people stuck on covenant and wq gear need a progression path but this progression path needs to be worse than the 3 existing ones or you make any of the 3 useless and therefore why pvp, raid or m+ when casual friendly wq system is better than all 3 on giving 226 gear? so yes they need progression but blizz needs to draw the line clearly.
    Last edited by Frozenbro; 2021-03-31 at 08:50 AM.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Effort should reflect reward... otherwise what incentive is there to do harder content?
    Totally agree. It's the exact reason why Mythic raiding is becoming more and more niche - because you can get the same or better gear by doing 14s non in time, which don't even compare in terms of difficulty.

    It's just right that someone that for example does only +10s or HC stops at a certain ilvl. There's a skewed perception where you need 213 gear to do HC, when it's actually the reward for it. This is due to the fact that M+ are making high ilvl gear way more common (i'm not talking about SL drop drought).

    What i don't get as a complaint is that i cannot get 226 gear from doing my 15s just because i'm doing those now and not 2 months ago like someone else.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    That's the wrong question being asked. The correct question is "Why the actual fuck do you care if people get gear other than they're not playing the game YOU want them to?"

    - - - Updated - - -



    FF14 doesn't attract toxic players because Square Enix is really hardcore about suspending or even permabanning people who are inflammatory/toxic. For the most part, Blizzard doesn't really give a shit unless you're friends with a GM.
    Behavior is driven by content. Does FF have PvP or timed dungeons where the most meaningful rewards are locked behind?

    If the answer is no, that’s why player are less toxic from the start.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Behavior is driven by content. Does FF have PvP or timed dungeons where the most meaningful rewards are locked behind?

    If the answer is no, that’s why player are less toxic from the start.
    FF14 has pvp and timed dungeons but afaik the rewards are mostly cosmetics and mounts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Gear should be hard to get and take time to get fully geared, it should take a player months of hard work to get everything they want, a player who doesnt put in that work doesnt need that level of gear, gear has been way too easy to aquire in many expansions and that is not a good thing.



    Without high enough rating there is no point doing random BGs as you wont get anything from it, just pug PvP 2s or 3s and slowly work your rating up and you can buy better items, gear has been way too easy to aquire in recent expansions and makes it too easy for players who dont expect to do things for upgrades.
    Except gear isn't hard to get if you do pvp. The only place gear is hard to get is in pve content. Drop rates are abyssmal so players are forced to pvp if they want to reliably gear themselves. Have you even played Shadowlands?

  11. #431
    I, personally, can't wrap my head about this phenomenon of "omuhgad how dare Blizz give casuals loot!".

    The way it's done now and in last years, IMO, is pretty good.

    It results in (relatively) casual players catching up on their mains by the end of the tier and that's fine by me. I'm not going to cry myself to sleep if I see some dude/dudette with 220-225 ilvl they earned purely from mix of M+14 weeklies/low PvP and some odd BoE, because I got to have that months before and by the end of tier it's all done anyway.

    Just as I did not have my panties in a twist over TF, btw. Waw, Billy the Casual got 1-2 items out of 14 where he lucked out and got mythic raid grade ilvl - call the waambulance.

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I, personally, can't wrap my head about this phenomenon of "omuhgad how dare Blizz give casuals loot!".

    The way it's done now and in last years, IMO, is pretty good.

    It results in (relatively) casual players catching up on their mains by the end of the tier and that's fine by me. I'm not going to cry myself to sleep if I see some dude/dudette with 220-225 ilvl they earned purely from mix of M+14 weeklies/low PvP and some odd BoE, because I got to have that months before and by the end of tier it's all done anyway.

    Just as I did not have my panties in a twist over TF, btw. Waw, Billy the Casual got 1-2 items out of 14 where he lucked out and got mythic raid grade ilvl - call the waambulance.
    The issue isnt this, its about casuals that wont partake in any of the existing progression paths that are stuck on 200 ilvl give or take cause thats the top for wq and covenant gear, they have 0 progression and they demand to have a progression path outside of the existing 3 (fair, idk why they cant upgrade their covenant and wq gear to 210 ilvl or so, only blizz knows) but at the same time it should give them bis gear (unreasonable unless it doesnt hurt the existing 3 progression paths).

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Without high enough rating there is no point doing random BGs as you wont get anything from it
    That is precisely the problem. Let us return to the previous way where a random BG player could earn conquest gear at a slower pace than a rated player.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    The issue isnt this, its about casuals that wont partake in any of the existing progression paths that are stuck on 200 ilvl give or take cause thats the top for wq and covenant gear, they have 0 progression and they demand to have a progression path outside of the existing 3 (fair, idk why they cant upgrade their covenant and wq gear to 210 ilvl or so, only blizz knows) but at the same time it should give them bis gear (unreasonable unless it doesnt hurt the existing 3 progression paths).
    And why not?

    Pray tell, why at this point when 9.1 is like 2 months away, give or take, they can't have a progression path for ultra-casual players that would give them ilvl 210 items from WQs?

    What, it would inflict some sort of physical pain on you?

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    Yeah, I know right? Like how many times IRL have you put effort into something only to get zero in return? Yeah dude, effort should TOTALLY reflect reward.... BUT, back to reality now: that doesn't always happen.

    So the game isn't actually mimicking reality, it's making up it's own BS despite the players, so in this case, no, effort shouldn't reflect reward. It didn't take effort to sign up for a 6 month sub, yet you get rewarded with a mount that looks cooler than anything you can obtain in game LOLOLOL....
    Effort reflect reward, that is just laughable right now.
    If you want to be a nitpicker would it settle for you in reflection of "difficulty"? I don't belief in this bullcrap of 'participation trophies' a lot here are angling with...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ek0zu View Post
    10+ years of raiding, after so many gear resets and there are people who are still doing it for the gear?
    Different people enjoy different things, such a shocking concept ain't it?

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    And why not?

    Pray tell, why at this point when 9.1 is like 2 months away, give or take, they can't have a progression path for ultra-casual players that would give them ilvl 210 items from WQs?

    What, it would inflict some sort of physical pain on you?
    Thats the point, that for some reason that only blizz knows it still doesnt exist when it should, theres no reason for them to be stuck on 200 ilvl, specially when valor exists and they could just use that currency to upgrade the gear at w/e pace blizz finds reasonable, and this would be a decent progression path for them, the only line that blizz needs to draw is to not make this path overpowered to the point that it overtakes the 3 existing ones, or we get BFA situation again where spamming +15s with no cd was better than heroic raiding as a whole, or current SL with pvp gearing being super strong (233 weps at the start of mythic progression kekw), so you clearly misunderstood the post.

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalium View Post
    Prestige can come in the form of titles or achievements... it does not need to be in the form of better gear.
    Not since boosting is thing. You are delusional if you think people would do harder content if there wouldnt be any gear rewards. Back in WoD casuals even droped doing LFR becouse it didnt offer any meaingfull rewards at all.

  18. #438
    They dont , that era is over, we live now on equalité

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    Give your sanctimonious screeching a rest, dude. You may be priviledged enough to have 8+ hours a day to devote to an old game but that's just you. And I'd wager nobody has a problem actually playing the game. It's not hard or challenging in any way, and if you believe it is, you've set the bar awfully low. What most people have a problem with is trying to organize 10-15-20+ groups to do content. Nobody paid for the game and the fee to sit in queues for minutes to hours. LFR tosses you a bone but fails to offer the best gear. Why? Why is it that raiding through LFR should drop inferior gear to manually organized raids?
    Yeah, not quite. I work fulltime and play a few hours in the evening and weekends as most people do. More then enough time to run a few M+, Raid and get the weekly grind done. It's just a matter of doing it, instead of expecting it to be handed to you for free.

    And if you truely believe that this is just a time issue, then you should read these forums more closely. I have read from so-called casuals that the Maw is too hard.

    You really don't understand why LFR gives low gear when it is literally impossible to wipe on a boss if you bring your brain along and maybe spend 2 minutes looking into the adventure guide?
    I know this is already asking much for LFR players. I personally have seen people dying on the Council of Blood dance despite it showing where you need to move...

    People that raid Heroic have gone through several Normal clears, have learned mechanics, have wiped a few times on each boss until they learned to deal with the mechanics and aquired the gear necessary and for all that effort they get the higher gear. This is just the normal progression system, you do harder content, you succeed, you get the reward. Organizing the group is just another part of this.

    If this effort is too much for you, then you are simply disqualified from getting the better loot. Your sub does not entitle you to get everything for free. Not in this game. There surely is some Pay2Win MMO where you can just throw money at it and you get the best loot. I suggest moving there if you can't be bothered with playing this game.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    And in the beginning is an utter farce, people getting obliterated by someone with +20 ilvl will think twice before going through that ordeal again.
    For bad players^^

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