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  1. #81
    No high end player cares about casuals getting good loot. In fact it would be nice if LFR dropped mythic gear so you could gear up your alts faster. Only skill matters and we know that bad players cant do shit with mythic gear. That said, why would an LFR player need mythic gear? They are not doing anything with it.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Ausr View Post
    I'm guessing that a lot of the people arguing against this are the actual shit tier players that no guild wants to drag along except on alt night or "hey, you're perfect for mythic +2 and we need a warm body."

    Doing harder content should reward you with better gear/toys/cosmetic items for putting forth the effort. If you can't do the harder content, then you obvious shouldn't be rewarded any of those items and have to stick with the difficulty of the game you can handle.

    I don't reward my worst skilled workers the same pay as the best skilled workers and tell the best skilled workers that regardless of pay, they should work just as hard with no carrot on the stick for them. They'll just quit and go to another job.
    You know what I think when I think "game design"? I think "I want my fun gaming time to be exactly like my shitty office job.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  3. #83
    Funnily enough, a discussion i had with an officer of my now ex-guild.

    Basically, the point is that casuals don't deserve progress and/or loot. Since they're not pushing, they don't deserve to do and get the same things as people ahead of them. It's basically what distinguishes good players from the bad ones.

    This mentality terrifies me. In general i agree that if i play causally and don't engage in competitive stuff, i don't really need the gear or rewards that come from them. Simply because to do the things i want i don't literally need that power - i can do them as easily with less powerful items.

    However this shows how quite a bunch of players desire segmentation, as if they're gonna be into an higher, exclusive class that no bads can touch. Gear now is raining through M+, so you don't even need to raid to get decked in stuff.

    In the end, most players do content they're overgeared for, and then brag about how good they are. Chances are actually that they're good at the game but still need the staple of powerful gear to do things. Pradoxically, when there wasn't no M+, no world quests etc, to beat the raids you had to do the raids - no funnel gear that helped you. It's like saying that the majority of people clear Mythic CN with 215-ish ilvl, when it's not the case at all.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Still no for me. Ppl should acquire loot at same rate but at dif ilvls. I think ppl should take about 80% of the patch length to get damn near full set of gear from their content. Mythic raiders and high m+ and high pvp should be working towards 226+. Heroic raiders working towards like 218. M+ers at whatever gv reward is of key their skill is capped at. Same for lower ranked pvpers.

    "Casuals" can get their 226 next patch when it's the new baseline equivalent to 200now
    But that's a very different issue tangential to the one being discussed, which is pacing of gear.
    If you recall early in SL, they dialed back raw drops to slow gearing, probably with the intent to make it take a little longer like the olden days, and people lost their shit.
    Then they dialed it back up, put in a half-baked valor system for a select minority, and now many people are very near their gear cap with no new tier in sight.

    But in terms of letting casuals eventually get to 226 for this tier, how about some reasoning other than "no"?
    How is it a bad design for the game to keep a carrot on a stick for the mass of casuals to slowly crawl through, which in turn most likely keeps subs more active since there's still "something to do" for them, especially in the face of a 6+ month first tier?

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Nothing you said explains why this is bad from a game design standpoint.
    And nothing you or anyone else has said why it would be good. Thankfully blizzard agrees and ppl who don't do any group content are stick around ~200

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    why do casuals think they deserve full 226 when they dont run high keys, high rated pvp, or mythic raiding?
    because we pay the same $ for our subs, you are pl, we are not is the only difference :P

    i just mean its a mmo, the reward should come with the time put in game not being the lucky one being PL at the end game

    its a bad design to restrict 90% of the gamer player base from gaining same kind of reward, the best loots behind lock behing very hardcore stuff that only 10% of player can do is stupid

    its why blizzard lose 61% of their player base after only 2 month of shadowland BUT HEH, THE HARDCORE SNOWFLAKES ARE HAPPY :P
    Last edited by kaintk; 2021-03-30 at 03:36 PM.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    And nothing you or anyone else has said why it would be good. Thankfully blizzard agrees and ppl who don't do any group content are stick around ~200
    It would allow players a sense of completion without doing the most extreme content in the game, and it encourages people to play across game modes rather than feeling forced into game modes they aren't interested in.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    But that's a very different issue tangential to the one being discussed, which is pacing of gear.
    If you recall early in SL, they dialed back raw drops to slow gearing, probably with the intent to make it take a little longer like the olden days, and people lost their shit.
    Then they dialed it back up, put in a half-baked valor system for a select minority, and now many people are very near their gear cap with no new tier in sight.

    But in terms of letting casuals eventually get to 226 for this tier, how about some reasoning other than "no"?
    How is it a bad design for the game to keep a carrot on a stick for the mass of casuals to slowly crawl through, which in turn most likely keeps subs more active since there's still "something to do" for them, especially in the face of a 6+ month first tier?
    How about an actual good reason for "yes". They are still getting upgrades. Just upgrades equal to the ilvl that equivalent to their skill

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Nothing you said explains why this is bad from a game design standpoint.
    Participation trophy mentality... :V

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Participation trophy mentality... :V
    Still waiting for a game design argument, rather than a "but it hurts my feelings" argument.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Funnily enough, a discussion i had with an officer of my now ex-guild.

    Basically, the point is that casuals don't deserve progress and/or loot. Since they're not pushing, they don't deserve to do and get the same things as people ahead of them. It's basically what distinguishes good players from the bad ones.

    This mentality terrifies me. In general i agree that if i play causally and don't engage in competitive stuff, i don't really need the gear or rewards that come from them. Simply because to do the things i want i don't literally need that power - i can do them as easily with less powerful items.

    However this shows how quite a bunch of players desire segmentation, as if they're gonna be into an higher, exclusive class that no bads can touch. Gear now is raining through M+, so you don't even need to raid to get decked in stuff.

    In the end, most players do content they're overgeared for, and then brag about how good they are. Chances are actually that they're good at the game but still need the staple of powerful gear to do things. Pradoxically, when there wasn't no M+, no world quests etc, to beat the raids you had to do the raids - no funnel gear that helped you. It's like saying that the majority of people clear Mythic CN with 215-ish ilvl, when it's not the case at all.
    How does gear distinguish good players from bad, though?
    I can go buy a CE full run right now, if I wanted, and I would have 226s and the achievement.
    You would have no idea that I purchased it (unless ofc I told you), so now you have a false understanding that I'm "good".

    That's the point, people.
    Gear is meaningless in terms of prestige; no one gives a rat fart and a pair of monkey balls about it.
    Literally anyone with enough gold/cash can buy 226s, if they choose.

    The prestige comes from the titles, the achievement dates, the mounts, all that stuff that balls up into "the top small x% get this each tier".
    Letting a casual, over the course of 4-5 months or more, get a few 226s through their chosen normal play has no bearing on anyone doing the content that drops that gear, and those Joe WQ can have fun loling at big crits on open world mobs in WQ areas while mythic raiders and +15 runners live in their little instanced slice of the world.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It would allow players a sense of completion without doing the most extreme content in the game, and it encourages people to play across game modes rather than feeling forced into game modes they aren't interested in.
    They can complete their set at their skill determined ilvl.

    There's m+ raids, and pvp. No other grouped content. If they want 226 from solo activities in an MMO, I think they are in the wrong genre

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    They can complete their set at their skill determined ilvl
    That's not an argument. That's just a statement of what you want.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by kaintk View Post
    because we pay the same $ for our subs, you are pl, we are not is the only difference :P

    i just mean its a mmo, the reward should come with the time put in game not being the lucky one being PL at the end game

    its a bad design to restrict 90% of the gamer player base from gaining same kind of reward, the best loots behind lock behing very hardcore stuff that only 10% of player can do is stupid

    its why blizzard lose 61% of their player base after only 2 month of shadowland BUT HEH, THE HARDCORE SNOWFLAKES ARE HAPPY :P
    its been that way since vanilla

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    And my point is it shouldn't matter if it is or not.
    The precious gear will be outdated when the next raid tier drops anyway, so who cares if someone slow crawls up to it.
    Gear is a progression metric, and the same end goal should be reachable by everyone.
    It's the paths that dictate the speed at which the end goal is reached.
    Mythic Raiders clearing top 50 will get there, on average, faster than those outside of the top 100.
    Top 100 will get there faster, on average, than those below within the top 500, and so on.

    The gear itself shouldn't be capped arbitrarily because it ends up not mattering anyway.
    Granted, SL is a bad example because next tier is probably further down the road than anyone wants, but it also highlights the issue even more.
    If 226s could *eventually* be earned through non-Mythic/non-high key/non-higher rating, but at a snail's pace, would that not keep the more casual base going longer?
    Content draughts are a perfect reason to have that slow crawl to gear, so while the raiders unsub for a few months due to boredom, Joe WQ and crew can keep going and get that 226 ilvl at a much slower pace, thus being better overall for the game.
    Joe WQ still won't have CE (though, at this pace, people will be selling that en masse as well if the next tier is 3-4 months or more away... diff topic though ugh), so you know Joe WQ isn't what you want for your team.
    It is reachable for everyone but not everyone gets there. Saying your gear will be outdated with the next tier just means that you should never play wow until its final expansion. Players are getting 226 at a snails pace. One 226 per week from the vault if doing m+

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Still waiting for a game design argument, rather than a "but it hurts my feelings" argument.
    Your argument is that it hurts your feelings that you arent getting the loot easier than them. Or in your case it seems, not getting it at all

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That's not an argument. That's just a statement of what you want.
    And you want gear for free without doing the content

  16. #96
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    IDK fam I'm mad I never get shit in the box and I'm mad that anyone gets something good. My BiS is from dungeons, not raid and I'm mad about that even though it's been that way for fucking years. I'm not mad because it's a bad design philosophy as such but mad that my RNG is shit. If I got it the first week I'd think it was great and the best thing ever like I did with Legion legendaries.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You know what I think when I think "game design"? I think "I want my fun gaming time to be exactly like my shitty office job.
    Analogies go woosh.
    Just don't reply to me. Please. If you can help it.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Your argument is that it hurts your feelings that you arent getting the loot easier than them. Or in your case it seems, not getting it at all
    My argument is that rewarding harder content with higher loot quantity rather than higher loot quality is perfectly sufficient and would make the game better in a variety of ways:

    1. Easier to tune content
    2. Less ilvl inflation.
    3. Better sense of completion for most players.
    4. Keeps players at their skill level rather than players trying to push into content they shouldn't be, which causes social conflicts and toxicity.

    The downsides thus far are:

    1. A small faction of high end content players will have their feelings hurt.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausr View Post
    Analogies go woosh.
    What was the point of the analogy? It was "This game should work like my job".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    And you want gear for free without doing the content
    Good thing I never said that, but I'm always happy to see people setting up strawmen because it means they ran out of real arguments.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    There's m+ raids, and pvp. No other grouped content. If they want 226 from solo activities in an MMO, I think they are in the wrong genre
    Who is talking about solo activity? Man these strawmen must be fun to set up.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    My argument is that rewarding harder content with higher loot quantity rather than higher loot quality is perfectly sufficient and would make the game better in a variety of ways:

    1. Easier to tune content
    2. Less ilvl inflation.
    3. Better sense of completion for most players.
    4. Keeps players at their skill level rather than players trying to push into content they shouldn't be, which causes social conflicts and toxicity.

    The downsides thus far are:

    1. A small faction of high end content players will have their feelings hurt.

    - - - Updated - - -



    What was the point of the analogy? It was "This game should work like my job".
    So what rates are acceptable to you? I get my gear in a month and it takes u 6? Cause then I'd be done and unsub for the next 5. Or u get it 1 month after me? Hardly seems fair.

    Blizz has done gear this way since day 1. You seem to think your side is the right one but 16 years is against u

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post

    Who is talking about solo activity? Man these strawmen must be fun to set up.
    Its not a straw man. U talked about activities u don't like. Every grouped content rewards up to 226. Pvp,m+, and raid. You cried about "what if I dont like that content???". If u don't like raids, m+, or pvp, then all thats left is solo content. Unless I'm missing something?

  20. #100
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