Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[ippollite]

Why?

I don't really get why more tedium is ever the answer to making content. What possible harm would be done by allowing players to simply gear at a reasonable rate? Is the 16th run of the same dungeon really that unique a go?

This whole mindset of "we need X to last for Y" is harmful to any game.

Just to be clear, this isnt me advocating this or anything. Its a blizzard red line i suppose. But reasons are likely a) they have an intended patch life cycle (which might actually be 6 months for all we know - this might actually not be 'late'). Think of it like 'timegating' only less delineated and with more rng. If youre looking at the playerbase as a bell curve, the intention is that you want the brunt of players finishing or not quite finishing their gearing process by the time the next patch drops. So, thats the pace theyve set. Gates (drop rates, ilvls, and lockouts) are in place to taper off the variables.
And b) Raiders would throw a gigantic hishtfit. Not only would they be at a huge disadvantage with their one lockout per week versus the infinite spam of mythic (and the drops therein), but they'd also complain about how they feel 'obligated' to have to run that content endlessly... and theyd also complain it'd completely invalidate their progression since any drops from the raid itself would be either a very moderate upgrade to their current +15 gear, or a sidegrade.

To be honest, i think this is why theyre seriously looking again at the idea of gear being tied heavily into the content it drops from. And i think thats due to the success of PVP gear this expansion in upsetting the pve gearing limitations applecart a bit. They mentioned just a bit back that they were looking at making pvp gear lose power in pve content and vice versa. Its an idea thats been swimming around for a while (preach did a video on it about benthic gear affixes relating to nazjatar and not tying into raiding - so, er, 'raiders dont feel obligated' to 'have to do it'). But ive also seen plenty of people on forums advocating this as a means out of the quandry of hitting your cap (brought to light in this expansion in particular) and feeling forced to progress in LFG. Its an idea whose time might have come to be honest.

And if that happens, it would go some way to preventing raiders and mythic dungeon players being at one another's throats about 'difficulty', lockouts, spammability, reward levels, etc. Still, that kinda only resolves part (b).

[darklogrus]

So what ilvl are casuals lobbying for in 9.0.5 anyways? Personally I think sitting at the 200ish ilvl range of Normal CN isn't too bad for non instant content considering you couldn't even make it to LFR's ilvl in the past few expansions.

[arkanon]

So what ilvl are casuals lobbying for in 9.0.5 anyways? Personally I think sitting at the 200ish ilvl range of Normal CN isn't too bad for non instant content considering you couldn't even make it to LFR's ilvl in the past few expansions.

Many in this thread are advocating for 226 from WQ / Solo play, one as high as 250.

[Tadkins]

So what ilvl are casuals lobbying for in 9.0.5 anyways? Personally I think sitting at the 200ish ilvl range of Normal CN isn't too bad for non instant content considering you couldn't even make it to LFR's ilvl in the past few expansions.

I would be fine if we just could return to the days where a random battleground player could slowly earn semi-decent conquest gear. Just something to have something to progress on and something to make PvP not a totally hopeless endeavor for a solo unrated player.

[darklogrus]

Many in this thread are advocating for 226 from WQ / Solo play, one as high as 250.

As someone whos lobbied for the WQ to be at least on par with LFR's ilvl, even I think it being better then Mythic raiding gear is a bit silly..

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I would be fine if we just could return to the days where a random battleground player could slowly earn semi-decent conquest gear. Just something to have something to progress on and something to make PvP not a totally hopeless endeavor for a solo unrated player.

Yeah, when that stopped was pretty much when I truly stopped pvping..

[TheRevenantHero]

Many in this thread are advocating for 226 from WQ / Solo play, one as high as 250.

Nobody in earnest actually wants solo play to drop mythic level gear. Anyone who says that is likely just trying to derail things and isn't being serious.

[Tadkins]

Yeah, when that stopped was pretty much when I truly stopped pvping..

It's a shame because random battlegrounds are the one thing many of us have probably consistently enjoyed throughout every single expansion.

Nobody in earnest actually wants solo play to drop mythic level gear. Anyone who says that is likely just trying to derail things and isn't being serious.

Yeah, I don't think anyone has asked for that, and I've been in this thread for at least 50 odd pages.

[Dazu]

And that brings me to this:
*Snip*
(No current meta systems, phantasmical or otherwise were harmed in the making of this post).

Now I actually get your side I do mostly agree. Still some points of differing opinions sure.

I think your ideas via torghast etc or even a WQ numbers completed tracker to the vault could work for solo players. Ill admit I was thinking you were complaining about the cap on solo progress, rather than the journey. Journey is very important and I can see the world quest gear up is likely too fast to enjoy the journey. I like it because my style is to move into the other stuff eventually (Id aim to be in a heroic or even mythic raid guild if my employment state allowed but being away and possibly no access to the game for weeks at a time and changing play times doesnt allow it).

Id make the point that Covenant and WQ gear needed to be toned down this expansion, and dungeon drops raised in the entry level of group content so the group content like 5man heroics and mythics were better sources to get into raiding etc, which allows WQ and tertiary systems to progress slower to the same point.

I wish crafting would go back to vanilla style TBH, or at worst TBC. Ive barely used a crafted item since TBC outside of initial Ilvl bump (My just turned 60 lock just got full 168 cloth armor for example). That same lock was using Crafted TBC epic gear into early t5 raiding but im expecting this entire set to be replaced in a week now.

As much as I hate raider.io and gearscore prior (seriously back in Wrath Ilvl was less important than the item). They serve a purpose for those that use them. I don't, and dont think I will, maybe once I hit the higher keys I will start to care, but right now couldnt care less. Also gives me a good sign on some groups to avoid. To my point, only maybe M+ up to 4 is possible really with LFG style queuing. Beyond that you may get a group that just wont finish it and cant be carried by 2-3 good players like heroics etc can be. Affixes (even weaker versions) in LFD now would be great. First time I did a quaking I had no f'n idea what was going on which wasn't great as the healer, took me a few pulls to understand what I needed to do properly, same deal with tanking Sanguine the first time, couldn't work out why the mob kept healing.

[ippollite]

Now I actually get your side I do mostly agree. Still some points of differing opinions sure.

I think your ideas via torghast etc or even a WQ numbers completed tracker to the vault could work for solo players. Ill admit I was thinking you were complaining about the cap on solo progress, rather than the journey. Journey is very important and I can see the world quest gear up is likely too fast to enjoy the journey. I like it because my style is to move into the other stuff eventually (Id aim to be in a heroic or even mythic raid guild if my employment state allowed but being away and possibly no access to the game for weeks at a time and changing play times doesnt allow it).

Id make the point that Covenant and WQ gear needed to be toned down this expansion, and dungeon drops raised in the entry level of group content so the group content like 5man heroics and mythics were better sources to get into raiding etc, which allows WQ and tertiary systems to progress slower to the same point.

I wish crafting would go back to vanilla style TBH, or at worst TBC. Ive barely used a crafted item since TBC outside of initial Ilvl bump (My just turned 60 lock just got full 168 cloth armor for example). That same lock was using Crafted TBC epic gear into early t5 raiding but im expecting this entire set to be replaced in a week now.

As much as I hate raider.io and gearscore prior (seriously back in Wrath Ilvl was less important than the item). They serve a purpose for those that use them. I don't, and dont think I will, maybe once I hit the higher keys I will start to care, but right now couldnt care less. Also gives me a good sign on some groups to avoid. To my point, only maybe M+ up to 4 is possible really with LFG style queuing. Beyond that you may get a group that just wont finish it and cant be carried by 2-3 good players like heroics etc can be. Affixes (even weaker versions) in LFD now would be great. First time I did a quaking I had no f'n idea what was going on which wasn't great as the healer, took me a few pulls to understand what I needed to do properly, same deal with tanking Sanguine the first time, couldn't work out why the mob kept healing.

Im genuinely appreciative you had the patience to give me a generous reading. I often think my points are teetering on the borderline of 'bananas'. (: I'm also glad you could sum it up in two key words: "the journey". I think thats a very fair summary. I definitely hit the more 'exploratory' playstyle, so my position is hugely influenced by it. Its also influenced by the old blizzard donut philosophy. So im genuinely fine with the push shadowlands is making to try and nudge players into the core progression system (currently player controlled). The intention is really to look for things that can be fine tuned to make that progression path more accessible to players who may lack the desire and interest to engage with them (or may simply feel terrified by the sudden lurch into this high pressure (perceived) cooker of expectations and judgements (in said 'player controlled environment')). When you have so many degrees of difficulty, theres a lot of scope for giving players comfortable successes in the lower difficulty levels, and being more careful about the transitions on the way up without necessarily breaking the challenge at the higher levels. Alternatively, you can look for ways to familiarise themselves with mechanics in a lower pressure setting (like the LFD heroic weekends).

Heck, even right now they could just put mythic zero on lfd. Every patch cycle, 4-6 weeks into a new dungeon release, throw mythic zero up on lfd for it. Suddenly players who hate lfg have an investment in learning mechanics, whilst also having access to the valor system. Open it to plus 2 and now they have vault access. Imagine the psychological difference! Imagine the numbers of exclusively solo players now feeling like they are a part of this 'hardcore' experience (even if only at the baby levels).

And then there's the point you made on dungeons in general (and their lowering of status). We could also apply this to LFR. It wasnt too long ago after all (panda and wod), where LFR was the defacto casual end game 'event'. Now LFR is just a cog in the wider world content experience. Not even a particularly important one (covenant gear and pvp gear having completely steamrolled it this expansion). But the thing was, LFR annoying as it is, was once an event. A mad, idiotic event. But something casual players would religiously log in every week to finish (being the primary progression source for gear). It also had decent staying power. You could easily be doing 7 or 8 clears by the next raid dropping. Thats something to do every week, that was worthwhile and felt like a decent reward for the nonsense you had to put up with. Now... maybe... maybe id finish it just to finish it. But as one of the core event of my end game experience? Something id want to do without fail? Not so much since possibly legion.

Quick interjection from Rob Pardo:

Dungeons too, we wanted them to be a much more hardcore experience, we wanted only groups in there, and so on. The dungeons are there to serve more of the core market. It’s something to strive for, a bridge for the casual players to become a little more hardcore.

I suppose they believe that mythic dungeons solves that issue once and for all (where expansions prior to the introduction of mythic in 6.2 really left them to languish). And we could definitely make a case for that, but we do kind of have to talk about difficulty here. Given that this is the pre-wow design philosophy, we are talking about a more chill, forgiving dungeon running experience. The point was not only to introduce players to a higher level of challenge, but also to facilitate players coming together through this system. He did after all suggest it was a 'bridge to ... become a little more hardcore' (not to be hardcore - but become a LITTLE MORE hardcore). And as such, id argue one of the priorities should be for the game to soften the landing so to speak. To use those earlier levels in the mythic experience to bring people together in a more chill, less oppressive environment of towering demands and expectations. The solution is obviously for blizzard to take some of the organisational control out of players hands and look for systems within the game to appropriately vet group formation (in much the same way that you need to hit xilvl to open up heroic dungeon access and lfr access). The obvious way to do that is Raiderio integration. Though as you caution, perhaps it needs a lower cut off point than any id suggest.

[Xykotic]

Items are the rewards for your work.

If I started a workplace, and paid people in lottery tickets, that's kind of how it would feel I imagine. You can earn nothing from a lot of work, while others earn a lot for nothing.

Not very engaging imo. I wouldn't even find it engaging if I was on the casual end.

[Lost controller]

Just to be clear, this isnt me advocating this or anything. Its a blizzard red line i suppose. But reasons are likely a) they have an intended patch life cycle (which might actually be 6 months for all we know - this might actually not be 'late'). Think of it like 'timegating' only less delineated and with more rng. If youre looking at the playerbase as a bell curve, the intention is that you want the brunt of players finishing or not quite finishing their gearing process by the time the next patch drops. So, thats the pace theyve set. Gates (drop rates, ilvls, and lockouts) are in place to taper off the variables.
And b) Raiders would throw a gigantic hishtfit. Not only would they be at a huge disadvantage with their one lockout per week versus the infinite spam of mythic (and the drops therein), but they'd also complain about how they feel 'obligated' to have to run that content endlessly... and theyd also complain it'd completely invalidate their progression since any drops from the raid itself would be either a very moderate upgrade to their current +15 gear, or a sidegrade.

To be honest, i think this is why theyre seriously looking again at the idea of gear being tied heavily into the content it drops from. And i think thats due to the success of PVP gear this expansion in upsetting the pve gearing limitations applecart a bit. They mentioned just a bit back that they were looking at making pvp gear lose power in pve content and vice versa. Its an idea thats been swimming around for a while (preach did a video on it about benthic gear affixes relating to nazjatar and not tying into raiding - so, er, 'raiders dont feel obligated' to 'have to do it'). But ive also seen plenty of people on forums advocating this as a means out of the quandry of hitting your cap (brought to light in this expansion in particular) and feeling forced to progress in LFG. Its an idea whose time might have come to be honest.

And if that happens, it would go some way to preventing raiders and mythic dungeon players being at one another's throats about 'difficulty', lockouts, spammability, reward levels, etc. Still, that kinda only resolves part (b).

I don't really think you understand the groups your claiming to speak for. Ive ran the hardest difficulties for over a decade. Raiders don't care about gear in the way you believe they do. Outside of the guilds near your ranking the rest of the wow player base is all but invisible to them. Sure you can find the lone nut who thinks running the same dungeon twenty times makes him special but the lion's share doesn't give a shit. They beat the dungeon they are ready to move on.

This idea that time matters... at all is one created by the community that doesn't actively consume this content. I don't feel accomplishment grinding content that for me is mindless (toghast, dailies, ap. corruption, etc)

I look at it and this "fuck this I am just gonna raid log rather then play the game on a alt". Tedium is the most destructive force when it comes to the high end. I won't happily pay for a list of chores and its been the driving force of making players quit since I would argue MoP.

The mythic raider wants barriers removed to do difficult content the "casual" has an aneurism because people don't want to grind the content targeted at him for a month or longer to do the content they enjoy.

WoW has to stop catering to people who want to one up other people and do so via participation trophies like time locked legendary items and conduits. Terrible drop rates are an extension of this.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

Because of human nature. However, it is bad, rotten part of human nature that Blizzard shouldn't cater to.

[Cuppy]

Answer to this topic: they didn’t

[Luxeley]

What really distorts perception is a complete and utter lack of understanding of what "skill" is, because you literally define it yourself. Your comment can be reworded as "its not skill, its SKILL". What do you think skill is exactly?

I consider what I stated to be knowledge, not skill. Skill would be finding nuance within the confines of your class and gear and coordinating it effectively with other classes. From a pvp perspective, which is the perspective I am coming from, it would be the right positioning and movement in various situations, using the environment to your advantage (can't be done in pve). I think having keybinds of important abilities in a comfortable and easily accessible spot and a very quick response time is skill. I just don't consider what I stated to be skill because it is very much common knowledge or the kind of knowledge anyone can easily acquire. That wasn't exactly the case 8-10 years ago.

[arkanon]

I consider what I stated to be knowledge, not skill. Skill would be finding nuance within the confines of your class and gear and coordinating it effectively with other classes. From a pvp perspective, which is the perspective I am coming from, it would be the right positioning and movement in various situations, using the environment to your advantage (can't be done in pve). I think having keybinds of important abilities in a comfortable and easily accessible spot and a very quick response time is skill. I just don't consider what I stated to be skill because it is very much common knowledge or the kind of knowledge anyone can easily acquire. That wasn't exactly the case 8-10 years ago.

First off, ill say this outright from the start - you are wrong. Firstly, you absolutely do use the environment to your advantage - LoS was a pve skill before it was a PvP one. As for literally everything else you say - its all one big contradiction. If what you were saying is true, every single player would EASILY be clearing mythic raids. Ill ask you a question - what do you believe the difference between a mythic raider dropping 99 parses vs someone in LFR dropping greys? They have access to all the same information, they are using very similar hardware, can achieve the same keybinds and are running on the same servers etc. So whats the difference?

If we all have the same knowledge, and it can and is being shared, then the only differentiating factor is skill (assuming all other variables are the same, eg comparing like for like) The difference between knowledge and skill is that skill is the application of that knowledge. Skills refer to the ability to apply knowledge to specific situations. Skills are developed through practice, through a combination of sensory input and output. Now that we all understand what skill is, and we all agree that everyone has access to the same knowledge, which can and is freely shared publicly and globally, how can you still claim that player skill is not the main factor?

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Because of human nature. However, it is bad, rotten part of human nature that Blizzard shouldn't cater to.

Jeez man, I wouldn't call casuals' desire to obtain gear far exceeding their skill to be "bad, rotten part of human nature".

Now that the conversation has shifted and those who once claimed they wanted 226 loot from WQ and solo content are NOW saying they just want progression, i have a solution:

You want progression that matters to you - the solo player, so here it is:

Gear is capped as it currently is, however you are able to obtain "set bonuses". They can be behind rep (something people have claimed they miss), rare drops, or purchased with currency. They are attached to open slots on your covenant set, and provide some strong bonuses that are massively advantageous in the gameplay they complete. Some examples might include:

Faster hearth
Flight whistle
Higher rewards (currencies)
Faster mounted speed
Faster unmounted speed
Reduced CD on Covenant abilities

They could also boost some core stats like haste/crit etc.

This is disabled in all group content, since the majority of people are saying they flat-out don't want to do group content, so it would be of absolutely no benefit to them. This will allow them to work towards progressing their character, in a slow but meaningful way, making them much stronger in their chosen field. It will also give no real incentive to raiders to obtain it, unless they WANT to, which would be totally fine - i mean who cares what other people have, right?

Anyone got any other ideas for set bonuses? And if anyone who has been advocating for a progression system for solo players doesn't like the system, let me know why - i would love to know.

[AcidicSyn]

First off, ill say this outright from the start - you are wrong. Firstly, you absolutely do use the environment to your advantage - LoS was a pve skill before it was a PvP one. As for literally everything else you say - its all one big contradiction. If what you were saying is true, every single player would EASILY be clearing mythic raids. Ill ask you a question - what do you believe the difference between a mythic raider dropping 99 parses vs someone in LFR dropping greys? They have access to all the same information, they are using very similar hardware, can achieve the same keybinds and are running on the same servers etc. So whats the difference?

If we all have the same knowledge, and it can and is being shared, then the only differentiating factor is skill (assuming all other variables are the same, eg comparing like for like) The difference between knowledge and skill is that skill is the application of that knowledge. Skills refer to the ability to apply knowledge to specific situations. Skills are developed through practice, through a combination of sensory input and output. Now that we all understand what skill is, and we all agree that everyone has access to the same knowledge, which can and is freely shared publicly and globally, how can you still claim that player skill is not the main factor?

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Jeez man, I wouldn't call casuals' desire to obtain gear far exceeding their skill to be "bad, rotten part of human nature".

Now that the conversation has shifted and those who once claimed they wanted 226 loot from WQ and solo content are NOW saying they just want progression, i have a solution:

You want progression that matters to you - the solo player, so here it is:

Gear is capped as it currently is, however you are able to obtain "set bonuses". They can be behind rep (something people have claimed they miss), rare drops, or purchased with currency. They are attached to open slots on your covenant set, and provide some strong bonuses that are massively advantageous in the gameplay they complete. Some examples might include:

Faster hearth
Flight whistle
Higher rewards (currencies)
Faster mounted speed
Faster unmounted speed
Reduced CD on Covenant abilities

They could also boost some core stats like haste/crit etc.

This is disabled in all group content, since the majority of people are saying they flat-out don't want to do group content, so it would be of absolutely no benefit to them. This will allow them to work towards progressing their character, in a slow but meaningful way, making them much stronger in their chosen field. It will also give no real incentive to raiders to obtain it, unless they WANT to, which would be totally fine - i mean who cares what other people have, right?

Anyone got any other ideas for set bonuses? And if anyone who has been advocating for a progression system for solo players doesn't like the system, let me know why - i would love to know.

I like this plan. With just the single obvious correction I keep bringing up: Casual and unskilled are not synonyms.

Otherwise, hey I like solo stuff, I'd totally participate in some solo-friendly progression stuff. WQ's are boring as hell.

I definitely agree with the separation from group content though, would really suck if group content players on any level felt forced into doing this stuff. If they WANT to, sure, nothing stopping these guys from doing group content, so the group people shouldn't have anything stopping them from doing this if they choose either. So long as neither group feels forced its peachy. (of course....plenty will still bitch but whatever, can't please 'em all)

As for some bonuses. I'd toss in some world pvp stuff like, just off the top of my head:

- Less chance to be dismounted
- Maybe some kind of cosmetic thing
- Maybe you have an aura that increases point generation for those world pvp capture objectives?
- shorter pvp talent cds? (again- only in the world, not in any kind of group pvp)


Granted all that said I don't need the system, the existing work just fine for what I do (or would do since unsubbed atm). But hey if blizzard wanted to throw solo players a bone like this I wouldn't fight it either.

[arkanon]

I like this plan. With just the single obvious correction I keep bringing up: Casual and unskilled are not synonyms.

Otherwise, hey I like solo stuff, I'd totally participate in some solo-friendly progression stuff. WQ's are boring as hell.

I definitely agree with the separation from group content though, would really suck if group content players on any level felt forced into doing this stuff. If they WANT to, sure, nothing stopping these guys from doing group content, so the group people shouldn't have anything stopping them from doing this if they choose either. So long as neither group feels forced its peachy. (of course....plenty will still bitch but whatever, can't please 'em all)

As for some bonuses. I'd toss in some world pvp stuff like, just off the top of my head:

- Less chance to be dismounted
- Maybe some kind of cosmetic thing
- Maybe you have an aura that increases point generation for those world pvp capture objectives?
- shorter pvp talent cds? (again- only in the world, not in any kind of group pvp)


Granted all that said I don't need the system, the existing work just fine for what I do (or would do since unsubbed atm). But hey if blizzard wanted to throw solo players a bone like this I wouldn't fight it either.

Agree on all points - and to be clear, I was using "casual" in the context of this discussion, and HATE using the word at all, but it is an important distinction to make in this context of Player 1 Vs Player 2. I said in an earlier post i do know some players who played at a very high level, and now log in once a week for an alt run with friends, or play a few nights a week for a couple hours doing cosmetic stuff / crafting or w/e they are into.

To be fair though, many of the people in this very thread identify themselves as, for lack of a better word, "Bad", well below average. I was trying to find a system that might interest both camps - those who fall into the casual category due to time constraints or 'life', and those who are genuinely just crap at the game - and that is nothing to be ashamed of tbh - i would need training wheels to complete the SC2 campaign.

And i agree 100% that it is very important there be segregation between this gear, and the traditional gear from raids / pvp, and i think both our suggestions meet that criteria - If a raider ONLY raided, and then went to do some WQ, for example, a player who had this full set would be out performing them, or at least competing with them.

Not really sure how to deal with the Wpvp situation though, as i do want the open world player to be much better at doing their tasks, but the pvp player still needs to feel powerful in Wpvp as well. Maybe something like if they are in pve combat and an enemy player attacks them, a debuff goes on the enemy player reducing their damage to said target. I thought about other ways of doing this, but they are all open to pretty substantial exploitation - eg someone attacks you while running around so you tag a random mob to gain the buff. Anyway, just spitballing, happy for other "causals" to jump in and make some suggestions that are not "i want the same loot as mythic raiders, but without all the inconvenience of "trying" and "socializing" and "improving" - gross!"

[Tadkins]

As for some bonuses. I'd toss in some world pvp stuff like, just off the top of my head:

- Less chance to be dismounted
- Maybe some kind of cosmetic thing
- Maybe you have an aura that increases point generation for those world pvp capture objectives?
- shorter pvp talent cds? (again- only in the world, not in any kind of group pvp)

What about reduced damage taken in random BGs/WPvP?

[ArkantosChampion]

Effort should reflect reward

[Freedom]

Effort should reflect reward

OK, fine, but what if there's no given avenue for your preferred way of playing? Torghast ended up not being rewarding for the solo player as much as 5 masking a vision did. From what I can gather, challenging solo content doesn't exist, and it once did. So maybe a solo player could get 213 ilvl - IF they can complete a solo challenge that's as hard as current Heroic raiding or middle tier PVP, think Mage Tower before massive outgearing made it too easy, but not RIGHT immediately at release. 213 allows a closer playing field, but still keeps Mythic and top tier PVP rewards more powerful.

This path could open up to giving Mythic -1 tier (13 ilvl below) rewards when the current tier/season's Hall of Fame has been fully filled, so that it doesn't end up being just another thing that hardcore raiders need to do to gear up for Mythic and be a part of WF races.