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  1. #1901
    Pandaren Monk
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    [QUOTE=otaXephon;53146611]In other words, "why doesn't my $15/mo subscription come with free BiS gear?"

    For the record, there is zero correlation between players quitting the game and not getting gear. This is just an imaginary concern usually fielded by players who feel like their subscription should allow them a path to the best gear possible.

    Yet as the game has gotten more complex, catering to the 'hardcore' and esport model, long term sub numbers have dropped.
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.

  2. #1902
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarnage86 View Post
    I mean,
    real skilled players can complete their goals even with not so good equip (very good player in normal gear can complete hc, with hc gear can complete mythic)
    while casual need that gear to pass that goals....
    Why skilled player got so mad about??? at the end of the day their are still better and skilled!
    Or after all this wow years we still make the same error and think gear should be a reward for skill instead that a pure instrument to a goal???
    What the heck a top 100-1000 player need mythic loot for, if they close raid/m+ in hc gear???
    It's like a professional driver/pilot going mad the normal driver can do the same route but with autopilot and a better car....
    Or football/soccer player going mad to sunday friendly bob about having better shooes and equipment....
    Look, people play rpg's for character advancement, its nice this mmorpg has been able to expand enough to include more casual players some who think they aren't as skillful.. but more than likely just haven't put the time and effort into improvement.

    Having the best gear for the hardest content not only gives players a goal, but it also gives casual players something to aspire to, likewise if you get the best gear what is it you are going to achieve with it? kill some world quests faster? that is worst case senario because if you don't have any struggle why would you even bother trying to play more of the game and try to improve? Wow wants you to spend time playing it- and getting better saying "i'm not skillful give me gear" isn't how this works, if you dont want to work for it you don't get it (is how it should be shame it isn't always)

    The end goal is that gear is one piece of a puzzle in order to keep players spending time in the game if you are casual and not investing the game to improve or explore other aspects of the game you are the person who should least of all get said gear.. as it'll always nag at you "you could be trying harder.. you could play wow more.. you could learn and be like them" which is the goal of every game.


    ---

    And if anything it more compares to a painter who works really hard and produces the best paintings in the world and they sell for 1 million a piece, meanwhile you put 10 minutes in and rub your hands over it saying "its abstract" and "that guy doesn't need the money as much as i do.. whats it even matter to HIMMM"
    Its just a really selfish argument we shouldn't throw out the worth of things just because people can't be bothered trying, Otherwise why would the million dollar painter even try? if his paintings would sell for the same price as yours even if he stops bothering to put effort into them?

    Sometimes "its just a game, why u heff to be mad" and other times its.. what are you doing with your life that you are trying to argue that you need an easy ride because you don't want to put in as much effort.. perhaps is there something else you could be doing you'd feel more fulfilled in?
    Make sure if you still play your voice is heard if it matters to you, Mine wasn't.
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    BFA is another failure on Blizzard for leaving out information yet again despite promising communication with players while Azerite armor is an unfun system forced onto us to keep us grinding.

  3. #1903
    Quote Originally Posted by jazen View Post
    Yet as the game has gotten more complex, catering to the 'hardcore' and esport model, long term sub numbers have dropped.
    So the addition of LFR, LFD, pet battles, transmog, adding a new and more easy raid-mode in normal, making normal and heroic flex, more and more world quests is to be considered catering for the "hardcore" crowd?
    Blizzard aren't run by idiots and they have added and are adding game-modes and content that appeals to a wide variety of players, ranging form the most casual and non-competitive to the most hardcore and competitive.

    No-one except Blizzard has any data on why people unsubscribe and why new players start the game.

  4. #1904
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayia View Post
    Otherwise why would the million dollar painter even try? if his paintings would sell for the same price as yours even if he stops bothering to put effort into them?
    You're conflating materials for the rewards in your example. Gear in wow is the paintbrush/paint/easel a painter uses to make art. The painting selling for millions is an acknowledgment of the skillful use of those tools. A more apt comparison would be parses or titles for completing at highest difficulty.

    A casual with the best gear who isn't good at the game will never parse or complete a mythic raid if they don't have the skill or drive. They'll never craft a painting of equal worth to a master if they actually suck at painting.

    Conversely, anyone can pick up the equipment and (if they're of the same skill) paint something on par to that million dollar painting, regardless of how much time. They just have to spend what is relatively nothing on the materials.

    Just because most people make the same mistake you do and view character power potential as a reward instead of a tool doesn't mean it is a reward. The reward is successfully beating the boss. Getting a good parse. Mastery of an encounter. Not "hurr durr now I hit even HARDER!"

  5. #1905
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Haha. Do you really think mythic guilds waste their time with carrying other people through the raid? They might boost people for gold when progress is done, but carry? Never. Am I the best raider in my raid? No, but I play on the level of my raid. If I didn't do my bit then I would be replaced, just like in any other mythic guild. But I am willing to do mechanics when it will impact my dps negatively. I don't whine. I don't make drama. That is quite valuable in a raid.

    The only thing that stops people from clearing content in-game is their will, skill and ability to co-operate with other people.
    I find it fun to better myself - I never claimed and never claim to be the best - but I won't play with people that don't do their best and who refuse to better themselves.
    Actually yes. Mythic guilds will very often carry people in the their guild. I've seen it happen a lot and I've had a lot of friends who only saw mythic because their guild carried them after they had it on farm. Based on your comments, I don't believe you even for a second that you've gone through mythic Denathria while only playing 5 hours a week. And the fact that you are saying that the only reason people can't clear content is "will, skill, and ability to cooperate" further shows you were carried. Because the majority of the WoW's mythic raiders will expect people to have already done mythic once at least before ever taking them into a raid with them. Your denial of the hardcore community being exceptionally toxic just shows you are either lying about your experience or got carried through mythic.

  6. #1906
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    I cant relate cause i didnt really touch LFR for those upgrades, but we did some heroic split runs for the sole reason of titanforging being a thing and yeah it kinda sucked, but the biggest offender wasnt this, it was getting the bis of Timmy but you cant trade it cause it warforged/titanforged/mcforged/burgerforged to w/e ilvl, this was absolute trash design for every organized guild.
    Yeah it was definitely trash design. So I didn't raid in BfA when personal loot was forced, so I didn't have the issue of "Well I have Timmy's BiS but I can't trade it"
    Forcing personal loot onto everybody was a pretty fantastic way to piss people off. I understand their logic of like... trial raiders not getting loot is unfun, but I feel like every trial raider kinda knows what they're getting into. Not only that, but I think it ends up upsetting more players than it prevents from being upset in the first place. Like for every 1 trial raider who gets loot when they otherwise wouldn't have, you have plenty more people upset that they can't trade this super shitty item they just got to their friend who plays a class it's BiS for.

    But yes, in Legion the issue was mainly feeling like you needed to go ahead and do basically every piece of content always for upgrades. Sad thing is that it absolutely worked numerous times. We had some mythic raiders who cleared Mythic Argus for the first time wearing LFR or Normal gear that rolled to be the equivalent of a warforged Mythic piece (so 10 levels higher than the base mythic piece of gear). It was... really sad.

  7. #1907
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Everyone deserves a progression path though. Something to work towards. iLvls isn't really the issue.
    The problem is that if you only do matchmade group content because that's what you're comfortable with your progression path ends after two weeks. At that point you have two choices, move on to organized premade group content or unsubscribe. Since casual players are leaving in droves for games like FFXIV that offer the kind of progression that they want it would seem that most choose to unsubscribe.
    There can’t be a progression path that suits everyone, it’s just not possible. People in here don’t want to do grouped content because it’s either too difficult or it gets too long to get in a group (99,99% of solo players are not tank or healers for obvious reasons) but a solo path that grants 220 ilvl in the end should have to be both very long and very difficult, things that would lead to further whines. You can now get somewhere between 200 and 205 by simply world questing plus callings plus one leggo at 235 plus all the 226 boe in AH. It seems quite fair to me, honestly, considering that they are all activity with zero difficulty. The AH boe part requires a ton of gold, ok, but farming gold is also a solo experience, it can be interesting and again it’s zero difficulty.

    I understand that the desire is reaching max ilvl gear without doing the activities Blizzard thinks are worthy to grant max ilvl gear, but it’s not possible.

    It was never possible and it probably never will.

  8. #1908
    If you really want to know why some top players""not saying all"" get mad at casuals for getting decent gear. Because some raid guilds make real life cash off carries. It happens in alot of games. They have to use outside ways like paypal and others to transfer the funds. If regular players were getting close to ilevel gear that elites are getting. It would threaten there income. Thats why some guilds that sell drops/carries got upset when LFR came along. Because it cut into profits.Not all raid guilds are like this. But there are some that do this. Some members might not realize it either if there guild is actually doing it. Was in guilds before were top officers and the leader controlled things. Would randomly bring in unknown friends for loot at the times. Members started questioning things about why an unknown was getting drops. Officer I was friends with mentioned they sold stuff. That once the leader had loaned him enough from it to pay off some debt. Some guilds have already been selling carries for AoH and other mount drops. This is no different. Elimate the means for guilds to make outside cash. Then you won't see them complaining about casuals getting decent gear. I am sure blizz turns the other way "if" tops guilds are doing it. Because then other guilds would question why couldn't they make money to. It's about money. $$$

  9. #1909
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    You're conflating materials for the rewards in your example. Gear in wow is the paintbrush/paint/easel a painter uses to make art. The painting selling for millions is an acknowledgment of the skillful use of those tools. A more apt comparison would be parses or titles for completing at highest difficulty.

    A casual with the best gear who isn't good at the game will never parse or complete a mythic raid if they don't have the skill or drive. They'll never craft a painting of equal worth to a master if they actually suck at painting.

    Conversely, anyone can pick up the equipment and (if they're of the same skill) paint something on par to that million dollar painting, regardless of how much time. They just have to spend what is relatively nothing on the materials.

    Just because most people make the same mistake you do and view character power potential as a reward instead of a tool doesn't mean it is a reward. The reward is successfully beating the boss. Getting a good parse. Mastery of an encounter. Not "hurr durr now I hit even HARDER!"
    See your being confused by talent and skill, most things in life inculding video games are a skill that you need to spend time learning, if you've become good at this game before you know this.. you recall a time when you weren't good and didn't know where to check.. what to do.. in order to improve.. until you put the effort in to learn.

    And if you aren't good at the game seems odd to be posting on this forum.. but- surely you've learnt to play a video game - a physical game or something and you've improved the more you do it?

    We aren't talking about the best of the best 1% of 1% because most people clearing mythic aren't those people either.
    You can become a mythic raider likewise you can paint really great painting without being a natural talent and super special.. its just a matter of practice practice.. practice.

    I mean really all you need to do is talk to the people most people think are "natural talents" and they'll tell you the hours they spend training.. because most of the time its not natural talent its just drive.


    So kindly don't confuse others - if you have the drive you get the gear.. if you want the gear... maybe it'll drive you to try harder.
    Make sure if you still play your voice is heard if it matters to you, Mine wasn't.
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    BFA is another failure on Blizzard for leaving out information yet again despite promising communication with players while Azerite armor is an unfun system forced onto us to keep us grinding.

  10. #1910
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    So next expansion i look forward to the 'omg, this game is constantly catering to casual/lazy players, games dead, ashes of creation is going to bury wow!' from all the people currently excited about the game catering to their playstyle preferences.
    I don't understand why having a path to BiS gear for more casual players, that is attainable gradually over a patch cycle, gets so much resistance.

    The very skilled and organized would still get to BiS before anyone else even if the game "catered" to more casual players.

    Locking achievements, mounts, titles, transmog, etc. behind skill/difficulty thresholds feels right to me and gives the game spice imo.

    Locking player power behind the those same thresholds is what makes people feel like they are being left out.

  11. #1911
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayia View Post
    See your being confused by talent and skill, most things in life inculding video games are a skill that you need to spend time learning, if you've become good at this game before you know this.. you recall a time when you weren't good and didn't know where to check.. what to do.. in order to improve.. until you put the effort in to learn.
    The rates people all get better at something are different, though. That's RNG of genetics. However, in a game, the devs have the ability to remove all such randomness from their progression systems, and they should. It's one of the BEST aspects of video games IMO. Point is: gear shouldn't be equivalent to "genetics" of a person.

    I beat a boss in dark souls (once) I get everything I want from it.

    So kindly don't confuse others - if you have the drive you get the gear.. if you want the gear... maybe it'll drive you to try harder.
    I'm doing nothing of the sort. I have the drive for deterministic goals or things that are in my control. The RNG of gearing in legion (lol legendaries), BFA (lol titanforging, AP rings, corruption, etc), and the RNG in SL are different. Lets say gear didn't exist and the game was entirely based on skill. Whatever my position in that hierarchy is is what it should be naturally. That is how it should also be in the world when gear does exist. That's what I want. Removal of external factors as much as possible, and random rewards is an easy fucking target. In addition, doing chores doesn't actually push you as a player or give you an opportunity to grow from a skill standpoint.

  12. #1912
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Enough with the bootstrap mentality because it's a lie.
    The Puritan concept of "I did it, so that means everyone can do it" is such a plague on humanity. It belies a complete lack of empathy or understanding that people are different from each other.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  13. #1913
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    The Puritan concept of "I did it, so that means everyone can do it" is such a plague on humanity. It belies a complete lack of empathy or understanding that people are different from each other.
    Yup. Exactly. And more often than not they leave out a lot of factors. Usually the people that say things like that definitely had a lot of help or are just lying because they think other people deserve to be unhappy like they are.

  14. #1914
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    We tried this with mage tower and visions.
    Both were awesome. Why can't we have those back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daffan View Post
    how can Blizzard give them a progression path when welfare gear from each patch completely invalidates their game already
    Shouldn't have to wait until the absolute final patch before we're allowed to have a game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    You're assuming casual players can't be skilled, which is false. I've known plenty who are casual and are far better than some who play all day long yet still can't master their rotations.

    Too often, people incorrectly try and make "bad players" and "casual players" mean the same thing.
    Very true. Plenty of skilled casual players out there getting cutting edge playing 3 hours a week or some such. Meanwhile people like me are on the opposite spectrum, playing 8-12 hours a day but struggling to join a M+ or heroic raid, and yes occasionally flubs their rotation. I don't really use the word "casual" on myself as I was super heavily into this game at one point.
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Most people I play with are nice or indifferent, actively toxic players are very rare, I can remember each one of them, but I am at higher end of the content. IDK about FF community, but rules against performance indicators are overboard.
    I don't think this is the case. Lots of toxic folks out there, even if they might be at the lower end, that's still plenty of toxicity we're having to deal with and not everyone's going to have the skill to climb out and play with the "good folks".

    I genuinely wish Blizzard would crack down on some of the worst of the worst. I like that FF attempts to make their game friendlier and as non-competitive as possible and it's why I'm currently considering it.

    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    I actually have played on Moonguard lol. I should definitely have prefaced my earlier comment with "except Moonguard" though. My bad there, though you obviously already know about it and so could easily filter that out lol. It's just an idea mate, since you and I do share one thing in common: the desire to specifically play in Azeroth rather than some other world regardless of how much those other worlds might cater to your or my respective playstyles. Feels like exhausting all options before making that wall of books you have just a memory of a world you've left behind would be a prudent choice.
    Fair enough. I do wonder what a smaller RP server like The Scryers would be like. I have no first hand experience but there would be a lot of factors to consider. Guilds available, what kind of RP goes on, what is the AH like, would I be griefed by the nearby Moon Guard metropolis, etc etc?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    There can’t be a progression path that suits everyone, it’s just not possible. People in here don’t want to do grouped content because it’s either too difficult or it gets too long to get in a group (99,99% of solo players are not tank or healers for obvious reasons) but a solo path that grants 220 ilvl in the end should have to be both very long and very difficult, things that would lead to further whines. You can now get somewhere between 200 and 205 by simply world questing plus callings plus one leggo at 235 plus all the 226 boe in AH. It seems quite fair to me, honestly, considering that they are all activity with zero difficulty. The AH boe part requires a ton of gold, ok, but farming gold is also a solo experience, it can be interesting and again it’s zero difficulty.
    I could earn 460 gear in BfA very slowly on my own (and even higher once I learned how to master 5 mask horrific visions) while the best of the best were earning 475. I was happy with that. What was wrong with that?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    The Puritan concept of "I did it, so that means everyone can do it" is such a plague on humanity. It belies a complete lack of empathy or understanding that people are different from each other.
    ...Thank you. Thank you so much for this.
    Last edited by Tadkins; 2021-04-23 at 08:21 PM.

  15. #1915
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    ~snip~
    Fair enough. I do wonder what a smaller RP server like The Scryers would be like. I have no first hand experience but there would be a lot of factors to consider. Guilds available, what kind of RP goes on, what is the AH like, would I be griefed by the nearby Moon Guard metropolis, etc etc?
    ~snip
    Oh for sure, its a butt load of work to vet out servers. Lots and lots of time to spend on the official forums just to start.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"

  16. #1916
    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    Oh for sure, its a butt load of work to vet out servers. Lots and lots of time to spend on the official forums just to start.
    One immediate perk I did find was that as a smaller server, more names were available and some that were honestly kinda surprising.



    I could play as f'ing Homer Simpson if I wanted.

  17. #1917
    Herald of the Titans Vorkreist's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=jazen;53148121]
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Yet as the game has gotten more complex, catering to the 'hardcore' and esport model, long term sub numbers have dropped.
    You must be playing a different game. 99% of the game consist of things a blind monkey could do.
    The subs dropped because the overall design and reward systems are incredibly bad and not because a micro piece of hardcore content that targets 0.0001% of the player base.

  18. #1918
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    That's actually not true. FFXIV has multiple difficulties just like WoW and the highest ones are no joke. The lowest difficulty in FFXIV is also a lot higher than in WoW, that's your LFG and LFR equivalents.
    I agree with the last part not the first. While not a "joke" they pale on comparison to most mythic fights. Unless they have really buffed them I admit I am an expansion behind.

  19. #1919
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I agree with the last part not the first. While not a "joke" they pale on comparison to most mythic fights. Unless they have really buffed them I admit I am an expansion behind.
    "Ultimate" difficulty raids look far more intense than Mythic raids. I've watched videos and spoken to a few people who have done both. Everyone I've spoken to has said that Mythic is much easier than Ultimate raids in FF14. But that's just the people I've spoken to in game when I was learning how to play and just chatting with random players.

  20. #1920
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    "Ultimate" difficulty raids look far more intense than Mythic raids. I've watched videos and spoken to a few people who have done both. Everyone I've spoken to has said that Mythic is much easier than Ultimate raids in FF14. But that's just the people I've spoken to in game when I was learning how to play and just chatting with random players.
    I can't really see how... I could see it being a sense of scale but difficulty wise? I can't say FF14 comes close unless you cap wow to heroic. It is also a weird comparison because of its small size. It is more akin to comparing it to a mythic 15 and a mythic 15 is harder...

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