1. #1941
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Your game? lol.
    Sigh... obviously I meant the current state of the game as myself and hundreds of thousands of people enjoy it. Thus "my kind of game" = "my" game for short.

    I thought that was clear enough, but apparently when people have no actual arguments for their cause they need to hang on single words.

    It's actually quite amusing that a thread that flows over with selfishness and entitlement of the so-called casual playerbase, it is these two words you stumble upon.

  2. #1942
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Sigh... obviously I meant the current state of the game as myself and hundreds of thousands of people enjoy it. Thus "my kind of game" = "my" game for short.

    I thought that was clear enough, but apparently when people have no actual arguments for their cause they need to hang on single words.

    It's actually quite amusing that a thread that flows over with selfishness and entitlement of the so-called casual playerbase, it is these two words you stumble upon.
    Maybe because the game had periods that were quite different but your selfish and entitled kind complained so much that we have the current state of the game. So maybe look in the mirror sometimes.

  3. #1943
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Sigh... obviously I meant the current state of the game as myself and hundreds of thousands of people enjoy it. Thus "my kind of game" = "my" game for short.

    I thought that was clear enough, but apparently when people have no actual arguments for their cause they need to hang on single words.

    It's actually quite amusing that a thread that flows over with selfishness and entitlement of the so-called casual playerbase, it is these two words you stumble upon.
    Hey! Thats mean! I like that blizzard are taking a genuine risk this expansion with their solo/nonlfg playerbase. I think its super brave digging in on esports systems. 9.1 seems to be doubling down with rated torghast and the new mythic dungeon scoring system. I think its very courageous. No sarcasm. Wow is playing to its strengths and looking to clearly demarcate itself from its competition. That i kinda personally dislike it is neither here nor there.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-04-27 at 10:40 AM. Reason: Fat fingers

  4. #1944
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Maybe because the game had periods that were quite different
    When? I have been playing since the end of WoD and at no time since has there been a system that allowed people to skip dungeons and raids and still get the best loot in the game. I can't speak for the time before, but I very much doubt it since raids and dungeons are the core of the game since forever and even if, that would be 6-7 years ago, maybe time to let it go and find a game that gives you the free loot you so desperately crave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    but your selfish and entitled kind complained so much that we have the current state of the game. So maybe look in the mirror sometimes.
    Strange, I only see threads from the other side loudly complaining that WQs and LFR do not award them with Mythic Raid gear. I personally haven't been complaining about anything in the game (apart from the story at times) because it works as intended and does so ever since Legion.
    Mythic Plus offers an endlessly playable system to do with my guild mates, Raids have been good, class balance is much better then in any other game and the QoL of the game is incredibly superior to all other MMOs I played. Of course I wouldn't mind better graphics and transmog options, but they are steadily improving.

    So, I am not the one that feels the entire system of the game needs to be changed to accomodate my wishes. It just needs to remain as it is, rewarding those that engage in playing and not those that feel entitled to BiS loot for paying their sub.

  5. #1945
    Im going to challenge you again. They arent NECESSARILY complaining about loot. Theyre complaining about a lack of progression. It just so happens that wow, specifically modern wow, ties all its fun and rewards into loot.

    The other week i literally spent days doing the hildibrand arr quest. Why? Because it made me laugh. I should have been progressing to heavensward, but i was just enjoying the dumb stupidity of it. This is one example of intrinsic rewards that wow (particularly modern wow) currently lacks (before you ask).

    Loot is what people point to only because its the most simple, obvious, and basic progression system the game offers. Outside of that though... theres really not much else except recolors and transmog. Wow (modern wow in particular) has kinda narrowed the scope of fun in game. And i know and understand fun is nebulous. But really those players are screaming 'please blizzard, for the love of azeroth, give me a reason to subscribe, log in and play your game!'

    Im really obsessed with this point for some reason (probably because i love wow and want to play wow forever, but its currently really boring and i cant ignore the treadmill when its so obviously thrust in my face - at least have the courtesy to cover it for at least a few months!). For those players, the game lacks... something. Its not loot though. Think of it like a yoyo diet

    Even if you get the gear; even if you throw 220 gear at everyone, it wouldnt matter. They still play the same way, they will still be unsatisfied with their gameplay loop. Unless they step into end game, gear doesnt remotely impact them. And bfa PROVED they wont step into LFG. Thats why we're where we are now with hard caps. They (by which i mean, me), will still play exactly the same way we (i) have since pandaria. I'll just treat it like a crypto progression system. So their choice is either iterate this on system with all its development time on a disneyland progression system (you wanna ride the flume all day? Go ahead!), or cut us off, retain the hierarchy and force the issue. This expansion is an experiment in cutting those (my) players off and seeing how we react.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-04-27 at 11:30 AM.

  6. #1946
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Im going to challenge you again. They arent NECESSARILY complaining about loot. Theyre complaining about a lack of progression. It just so happens that wow, specifically modern wow, ties all its fun and rewards into loot.

    The other week i literally spent days doing the hildibrand arr quest. Why? Because it made me laugh. I should have been progressing to heavensward, but i was just enjoying the dumb stupidity of it. This is one example of intrinsic rewards that wow (particularly modern wow) currently lacks (before you ask).

    Loot is what people point to only because its the simplest progression system the game offers.
    This is correct. I'll use FFXIV as an example. Every week you can queue up for dungeons and raids (kinda like LFG and LFR but harder) and collect a currency that has a weekly cap. Every 1-2 weeks (depending on the slot) you can buy a piece of high level gear. In WoW it would be equal to heroic raid gear in quality.

    This is a excellent progression system and since you pull from all the dungeons and raids that the game has ever had it varies greatly and since you're level and gear synced you can get matched with players that are still levelling and show them the ropes. Socially it's a great experience.

  7. #1947
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Hey! Thats mean! I like that blizzard are taking a genuine risk this expansion with their solo/nonlfg playerbase. I think its super brave digging in on esports systems. 9.1 seems to be doubling down with rated torghast and the new mythic dungeon scoring system. I think its very courageous. No sarcasm. Wow is playing to its strengths and looking to clearly demarcate itself from its competition. That i kinda personally dislike it is neither here nor there.
    I agree. But I still am not sure where or when that was ever not the case. The game's core have been Raids and Dungeons since launch and in fact it is this focus that led me and my guild here, because our previous game (SWTOR) decided that it's raiding community was no longer worth the effort and dropped group content to the absolute bottom of the priorities, below the cash shop. The result was basically a single player game that wanted you to pay a sub.

    It feels to me that there is a new thing in the community for a few years at most, where some players feel that even if they choose to do nothing but picking flowers the game should treat this as an accomplishment and reward them with high end gear, thus completely devalueing the gear that people spend hours upon hours slowly grinding out of Raids and Dungeons. Because doing this, playing the game as it was intended, is now considered "hardcore" and "anti-casual" and "WoW is dying because it doesn't give me Mythic Raid loot for skinning a boar".

    The game is doing what it has always done, rewarding skill and effort, but a part of the community now treats this as a flaw, because they do not want to spend the effort to aquire the skill needed to do harder content and thus earn all the loot they want. The strife for personal improvement is completely lost and replaced with pure lazyness and the demand to be rewarded for it. Instant gratification has replaced working and earning something of value for many and I find this both sad and frightening.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Im going to challenge you again. They arent NECESSARILY complaining about loot. Theyre complaining about a lack of progression. It just so happens that wow, specifically modern wow, ties all its fun and rewards into loot.
    Well, most people assign it to loot in this thread and since this is not a game with endless leveling, loot is the only progression that you have for the endgame, apart from skill, but that one is very difficult to gauge.
    The problem is that the progression path is right there, dungeons and raids, they are open for every players of the game, but some choose not to step on that path, thus halting their progression. Which is completely fine, because they won't need the progression anyway for the things they do.
    The problem starts when they demand that the game builds a whole new progression path just for them, because they don't wanna do difficult content, but the gear they could very well use.

    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    The other week i literally spent days doing the hildibrand arr quest. Why? Because it made me laugh. I should have been progressing to heavensward, but i was just enjoying the dumb stupidity of it. This is one example of intrinsic rewards that wow (particularly modern wow) currently lacks (before you ask).

    Loot is what people point to only because its the simplest progression system the game offers.
    I haven't played FF so I can't really judge here. But the thing I think I am reading is interesting. You did stuff because it is fun, not needing to be rewarded for it, because the fun is the reward. Correct me if I am wrong.

    So you do what you find fun, expecting no reward for it, besides the fun itself. This is relatable and fine for me. It's pretty much why I still do the heroic raid even if I haven't gotten an upgrade there in month. I just enjoy it.

    What I am unsure about is, how this supports your point or the points of the folks in this thread. If anything it seems to point out that people should just do what they have fun with and not care about being rewarded, which is the opposite of what people here demand, no?

  8. #1948
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    I mentioned this on another thread. When folks say things like...

    "Everyone can do the content! All you have to do is...
    -Download a mess of addons and learn how to work each individual string.
    -Learn how to log yourself and analyze them.
    -Learn how to sim your gear and naviagate all the complex numbers and variables for optimal performance.
    -Watch hours of videos related to the dungeons and raids you want to run, and closely study the streamers playing your chosen class and spec.
    -Navigate the increasingly harsh and elitist community trying to find a group of players or a guild you can click with, oftentimes spending hundreds of dollars on server and faction transfer fees.
    -Perform perfectly in the dungeons when you run them the first time, otherwise you're considered selfish because how dare you waste someone's time by making a mistake and wiping while trying to learn."

    I mean, is it really that inconceivable that all of that might be tough and overwhelming when you put it together? All I'm really asking for is to be the jolly archmage of the Kirin Tor exploring the world, enjoying the sights, fighting evil, and accomplishing things at my own pace. And I can't really do that it seems like anymore. The world doesn't offer much these days and the devs and playerbase only seem to care about the hyper-competitive e-sports content. And if you struggle to compete, "git gud or git out". So sadly I have.
    The sad thing is that little of the above is actually necessary - WoW is a medium in which you can, with a bit of effort, create your own community whole-cloth from likeminded players who want the same things out of WoW that you do. Take my guild, for example; we're pretty casual and manned mainly by 30 and 40-somethings who have full lives and careers that make it impossible to commit large chunks and especially specific days to WoW's various activities. We don't raid Mythics and we're aren't busting down the Mythic+ gravy train. We'll jump into a Normal raid if we have the numbers, and we're somewhere around M10 in regard to our Mythic+ abilities (slowly growing stronger as we get Vault gear and such). But everyone in the group has a blast when we play, everyone is committed to improving their playstyle, and everyone chips in when it comes to the essentials like flasks, feasts, and what-have-you. We wipe when it comes to learning new content or dealing with tricky affixes, and sometimes people will make mistakes and in general we'll laugh, even if it sets us back somewhat.

    WoW is at its worst in the horse-latitudes of pugging raids or the Mythic+ circuit, in my opinion. You have to rely on excessive skill and/or experience because that's all strangers care about - they don't know you, and their sole interest is in expediency and excellence. That's fine for what it is, and if a hyper-competitive and cutthroat atmosphere is what you want then more power to you. It's definitely not for me, and I'll sacrifice having the best of the best in terms of gear and/or achievements if it means that I can have a blast with my friends while making progress slower, but definitely with a lot more laughter and overall enjoyment of the game.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  9. #1949
    I did do it because its fun. You have me bang to rights. The point is that i did it despite the time i was clearly wasting. Im not sure if i should explain it, so i will

    In wow, you can literally go from level 1 to end game (ilvl 200) without ever once engaging with another player. I mean, its better to at least spend some time in LFD (basically a solo game). But you can still do it. In final fantasy you MUST do group content. Think of it like having to do deadmines, sfk, bfd, armory, cath, rfd, zf, mara princess, BRD, emp run, scholo/strat live, strat undead/lbrs, ubrs, mc, ony, zf/bwl. You HAVE to do them. If you dont, you can still get experience, but you cant actually learn skills higher than the level of the dungeon you completed. So if you dont do deadmines but keep grinding side quests, you could be level 35-level 50 but you'd still be stuck with level 18 eviscerate. You have to do them.

    This is super important because it tells you the value (in terms of time and pointlessness) of doing side quests in ff14 (its a real cost - just because you gain experience doesnt mean all that much). And why the sheer fact i had fun with a dumb side quest chain (thats SUPER LONG, just to be clear), and chose to do it despite understanding this fact, made that quest chain enjoyable. Its not just "FUN", its an opportunity cost. Im choosing to delay my progression and investing my time into something utterly pointless because its fun. No other reason. Because im having fun doing it and i WANT to see what happens next. Thats why it supports my position. I understand that system. Despite that, i just wanted to play it because through missing it, id enjoy the game (and the world), less.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The sad thing is that little of the above is actually necessary - WoW is a medium in which you can, with a bit of effort, create your own community whole-cloth from likeminded players who want the same things out of WoW that you do. Take my guild, for example; we're pretty casual and manned mainly by 30 and 40-somethings who have full lives and careers that make it impossible to commit large chunks and especially specific days to WoW's various activities. We don't raid Mythics and we're aren't busting down the Mythic+ gravy train. We'll jump into a Normal raid if we have the numbers, and we're somewhere around M10 in regard to our Mythic+ abilities (slowly growing stronger as we get Vault gear and such). But everyone in the group has a blast when we play, everyone is committed to improving their playstyle, and everyone chips in when it comes to the essentials like flasks, feasts, and what-have-you. We wipe when it comes to learning new content or dealing with tricky affixes, and sometimes people will make mistakes and in general we'll laugh, even if it sets us back somewhat.

    WoW is at its worst in the horse-latitudes of pugging raids or the Mythic+ circuit, in my opinion. You have to rely on excessive skill and/or experience because that's all strangers care about - they don't know you, and their sole interest is in expediency and excellence. That's fine for what it is, and if a hyper-competitive and cutthroat atmosphere is what you want then more power to you. It's definitely not for me, and I'll sacrifice having the best of the best in terms of gear and/or achievements if it means that I can have a blast with my friends while making progress slower, but definitely with a lot more laughter and overall enjoyment of the game.
    Im totally with you. In vanilla, and certainly tbc heroics, i learned one truth: wiping is fun. Because when you wipe, people start communicating. Different time, obviously. But true to the period.

  10. #1950
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    This is correct. I'll use FFXIV as an example. Every week you can queue up for dungeons and raids (kinda like LFG and LFR but harder) and collect a currency that has a weekly cap. Every 1-2 weeks (depending on the slot) you can buy a piece of high level gear. In WoW it would be equal to heroic raid gear in quality.

    This is a excellent progression system and since you pull from all the dungeons and raids that the game has ever had it varies greatly and since you're level and gear synced you can get matched with players that are still levelling and show them the ropes. Socially it's a great experience.
    It goes even further: you forgot to mention the weekly LFR coins that allow you to upgrade the high level gear to the Mythic equivalent, since we're in an odd-numbered patch.

    Very slowly, over the course of the summer, my main class will have an item level that is very nearly equivalent to a Mythic raider's (which they've had since December), save for one ring I cannot have two of.

    I cannot overstate how satisfying this feels to me, as a purely solo player who only does queued content. I feel relevant rather than walled off in the kiddie pool.

    Perhaps the best thing about FFXIV's community is that I have never seen any Savage raider complain about this catch-up system. Never. Because the gear I get does not impact them and the fun they had clearing the raids in the least. They still have unique cosmetic gear, raid mounts, Ultimate titles and weapons that light up the entire room when they're drawn - as they should.

    Meanwhile, on the WoW side, we have........... this entire thread.
    Last edited by Rappy28; 2021-04-27 at 01:11 PM.

  11. #1951
    Warchief roboscorcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    I did do it because its fun. You have me bang to rights. The point is that i did it despite the time i was clearly wasting. Im not sure if i should explain it, so i will

    In wow, you can literally go from level 1 to end game (ilvl 200) without ever once engaging with another player. I mean, its better to at least spend some time in LFD (basically a solo game). But you can still do it. In final fantasy you MUST do group content. Think of it like having to do deadmines, sfk, bfd, armory, cath, rfd, zf, mara princess, BRD, emp run, scholo/strat live, strat undead/lbrs, ubrs, mc, ony, zf/bwl. You HAVE to do them. If you dont, you can still get experience, but you cant actually learn skills higher than the level of the dungeon you completed. So if you dont do deadmines but keep grinding side quests, you could be level 35-level 50 but you'd still be stuck with level 18 eviscerate. You have to do them.

    This is super important because it tells you the value (in terms of time and pointlessness) of doing side quests in ff14 (its a real cost - just because you gain experience doesnt mean all that much). And why the sheer fact i had fun with a dumb side quest chain (thats SUPER LONG, just to be clear), and chose to do it despite understanding this fact, made that quest chain enjoyable. Its not just "FUN", its an opportunity cost. Im choosing to delay my progression and investing my time into something utterly pointless because its fun. No other reason. Because im having fun doing it and i WANT to see what happens next. Thats why it supports my position. I understand that system. Despite that, i just wanted to play it because through missing it, id enjoy the game (and the world), less.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Im totally with you. In vanilla, and certainly tbc heroics, i learned one truth: wiping is fun. Because when you wipe, people start communicating. Different time, obviously. But true to the period.

    I quit WoW when my classic guild moved to Shadowlands and some players weren't allowed in RBG's and others weren't invited to M+ runs. On top of that, the daily grind and covenant split gave us less time to actually do fun things together.

    Classic WoW was like having a longterm girlfriend. The lows were low, but the highs made it all worth it. Retail WoW is tinder. It fulfills your basic needs, but the long term bonds do not exist. Even worse, everyone is stripped down to their numerical attributes, and only the people with the best attributes succeed. There is almost no room for socializing, gotta move on.

  12. #1952
    Quote Originally Posted by roboscorcher View Post
    Classic WoW was like having a longterm girlfriend. The lows were low, but the highs made it all worth it. Retail WoW is tinder. It fulfills your basic needs, but the long term bonds do not exist. Even worse, everyone is stripped down to their numerical attributes, and only the people with the best attributes succeed. There is almost no room for socializing, gotta move on.
    Well, you can certainly find a guild in retail too to have fun with. I could give you an opposite example about classic now - no active leveling guilds, no actual social interaction between same two clowns in the /1 every day before WBFs drop. Trying to find people who do leveling dungeons - impossible, I am almost lvl 30 and I have yet to need to party up with someone to do anything in outside world. Half of my online time is drinking. I retail WoW I have a guild with whom we used to raid mythic, now we do HC runs, m+ and achievement stuff, some RBGs if we are down to it and most unviable spec. in retail is still more viable in anything than a most unviable class in classic too.
    If I put actual effort in classic WoW I would easy find people to play with.

  13. #1953
    Quote Originally Posted by Rappy28 View Post
    Perhaps the best thing about FFXIV's community is that I have never seen any Savage raider complain about this catch-up system. Never. Because the gear I get does not impact them and the fun they had clearing the raids in the least. They still have unique cosmetic gear, raid mounts, Ultimate titles and weapons that light up the entire room when they're drawn - as they should.

    Meanwhile, on the WoW side, we have........... this entire thread.
    I agree. The high end players in WoW care way too much about what everyone else has and how everyone else plays the game instead of focusing on themselves.

  14. #1954
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I agree. The high end players in WoW care way too much about what everyone else has and how everyone else plays the game instead of focusing on themselves.
    Is the gear you get from activities you do not sufficient? Do you struggle to do world quests in covenant gear? If the answer is "no, i don't struggle" but you still desire better gear from harder content because other players have it, then it is you that cares too much about what others are wearing.

  15. #1955
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Is the gear you get from activities you do not sufficient? Do you struggle to do world quests in covenant gear? If the answer is "no, i don't struggle" but you still desire better gear from harder content because other players have it, then it is you that cares too much about what others are wearing.
    Is the bike you got from store not sufficient? Do you struggle to get to work? If the answer is "no, i don't struggle" but you still desire a car simply because other people have it, then it is you that cares too much about what others are using.

    PS. In case you dont understand, you assumed people want better stuff JUST because others have it, which if false.
    Last edited by kaminaris; 2021-04-27 at 05:51 PM.
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  16. #1956
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Is the bike you got from store not sufficient? Do you struggle to get to work? If the answer is "no, i don't struggle" but you still desire a car simply because other people have it, then it is you that cares too much about what others are using.

    PS. In case you dont understand, you assumed people want better stuff JUST because others have it, which if false.
    I would struggle biking many miles to work. Its more like is the 2006 Honda civic sufficient for getting to work? Yes it is. Idc that someone drives to work in a lambo. If I want something better I can get a better job (ie do harder content)

  17. #1957
    Quote Originally Posted by Rappy28 View Post
    Perhaps the best thing about FFXIV's community is that I have never seen any Savage raider complain about this catch-up system. Never. Because the gear I get does not impact them and the fun they had clearing the raids in the least.
    Word. I agree completely.

  18. #1958
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I would struggle biking many miles to work. Its more like is the 2006 Honda civic sufficient for getting to work? Yes it is. Idc that someone drives to work in a lambo. If I want something better I can get a better job (ie do harder content)
    You can buy 1996 old car and it will still do the job. Or use public transportation.
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  19. #1959
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Im totally with you. In vanilla, and certainly tbc heroics, i learned one truth: wiping is fun. Because when you wipe, people start communicating. Different time, obviously. But true to the period.
    This is a bit of a digression, but one of the things I have noticed is that WoW players tend to not communicate in-game to any meaningful degree. That's not to say that players are anti-social (i.e.: many will be in Discord, for example), but very few seem to willingly engage in communication with random people in-game. This is in contrast to other MMOs like ESO or OSRS, where in the former people will talk in dungeon groups all the time and in the latter you will have longform communication between players doing random skilling activities (i.e.: Barbarian fishing or Wintertodt are good examples of a hotspots for players).
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  20. #1960
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    This is a bit of a digression, but one of the things I have noticed is that WoW players tend to not communicate in-game to any meaningful degree. That's not to say that players are anti-social (i.e.: many will be in Discord, for example), but very few seem to willingly engage in communication with random people in-game. This is in contrast to other MMOs like ESO or OSRS, where in the former people will talk in dungeon groups all the time and in the latter you will have longform communication between players doing random skilling activities (i.e.: Barbarian fishing or Wintertodt are good examples of a hotspots for players).
    Damn i miss the old days of wow where people actually knew each other etc.

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