Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[Something Wicked]

Damn i miss the old days of wow where people actually knew each other etc.

Or where you actually had to socialize with people to do group content, guild or not. Now they just look at an otherwise meaningless number and invite or don't. Such fun. Or when they do communicate, it's to call people losers, bad, or any of the other names I've been called in this thread alone.

Then they wonder why so many people object to that sort of thing.

[Crimson Spears]

Or where you actually had to socialize with people to do group content, guild or not. Now they just look at an otherwise meaningless number and invite or don't. Such fun. Or when they do communicate, it's to call people losers, bad, or any of the other names I've been called in this thread alone.

Then they wonder why so many people object to that sort of thing.

I mean that has been every multiplier game to pretend otherwise is to create a fiction of your own making. Even in wrath people had kick protection added to the game because they didn't want to carry terrible players.

[Darynn]

Well i stopped playing with hardcore raiding etc in the end of TBC. But i still played WOTLK and had lots of contacts with people outside of the guild. These days i never see anyone speak and if they do its mostly flaming at a party member. Ah well times change i gues and i assume its the same for other online games.

[crusadernero]

I quit WoW when my classic guild moved to Shadowlands and some players weren't allowed in RBG's and others weren't invited to M+ runs. On top of that, the daily grind and covenant split gave us less time to actually do fun things together.

Classic WoW was like having a longterm girlfriend. The lows were low, but the highs made it all worth it. Retail WoW is tinder. It fulfills your basic needs, but the long term bonds do not exist. Even worse, everyone is stripped down to their numerical attributes, and only the people with the best attributes succeed. There is almost no room for socializing, gotta move on.

This is 100% spot on. Retail wow is a simbased game at this point. Pick the best, or be dropped. People got no time for anything. Do what you are here to do, move on. Its a game thats VERY easy to leave behind now. Probably a good thing?


When classic launched I really didnt think I would spend time with it, cause I was playing it back in vanilla. But damn, its a total different game. Even though I havent bothered with the raiding, it really is different. Looking at how raids are at classic, theres really no need to try-hard everything at all time. You can if you want, but theres no need. Dungeons are easy, raids fairly easy. Group up, have some fun and banter with the lads. In retail is a clusterfuck 95% of the time.

Nah, I rather stay away.

[ellieg]

This is 100% spot on. Retail wow is a simbased game at this point. Pick the best, or be dropped. People got no time for anything. Do what you are here to do, move on. Its a game thats VERY easy to leave behind now. Probably a good thing?


When classic launched I really didnt think I would spend time with it, cause I was playing it back in vanilla. But damn, its a total different game. Even though I havent bothered with the raiding, it really is different. Looking at how raids are at classic, theres really no need to try-hard everything at all time. You can if you want, but theres no need. Dungeons are easy, raids fairly easy. Group up, have some fun and banter with the lads. In retail is a clusterfuck 95% of the time.

Nah, I rather stay away.

I'm sure you could find a guild that only raids normal. Same difficulty raids. Can tryhard if u like but no need. No need to pick best spec. All the social of classic can be found in guilds in retail

[arkanon]

Maybe because the game had periods that were quite different but your selfish and entitled kind complained so much that we have the current state of the game. So maybe look in the mirror sometimes.

And the game director for World of Warcraft had this to say today:

- Power level from item rating has not changed even since Wrath.
- 1 item level is basically the equivalent of 1%.
- If there is such a big gap between players 20 item levels apart, it is more likely a skill issue.

So we now have not only players saying that this narrative of "I get ruined by players 10 ilvls above me and this has never ever been the case in wows history ever" is absolutely not true, but the director of the game is outright saying it as well. When will players start to look at themselves and say "well shit, maybe they are genuinely just better than me at this game" instead of "yeah well its not fair because they have better gear than me".

- - - Updated - - -

That is the case, when what a non-competitive player is allowed would only get them smashed in a random BG.

See above - You have claimed multiple times there is no point going into random bgs because you will get smashed by geared players.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm sure you could find a guild that only raids normal. Same difficulty raids. Can tryhard if u like but no need. No need to pick best spec. All the social of classic can be found in guilds in retail

For YEARS I was part of a casual normal / heroic group of friends, outside of my main raid team. They always cleared all of normal, and typically cleared all of heroic, although there were a couple of exceptions. Zero "requirements" other than being appropriately geared (eg not in normal dungeon gear asking for a spot in heroic raid clear). We never once had a group composition issue - not once. We once ran 3 x resto shaman as our healing time. We ran 2 bear tanks, we ran 2 dk tanks when "no one" was playing blood. Everyone has husbands/wives and kids, full time jobs, other hobbies and commitments like sport. Never once was any of this an issue, and i consider it the norm for a heroic/normal mode guild.

Sadly, due to the increase in popularity of M+, and the focus on pugging normal mode in particular, it did get hard maintaining a roster towards the end of BFA, so there was often 2-5 pugs coming along as well - again, no issue at all. We kicked a few dickheads, the odd person would leave for w/e reason, but for the most part, it was absolutely fine and quite enjoyable.

[ellieg]

And the game director for World of Warcraft had this to say today:

- Power level from item rating has not changed even since Wrath.
- 1 item level is basically the equivalent of 1%.
- If there is such a big gap between players 20 item levels apart, it is more likely a skill issue.

So we now have not only players saying that this narrative of "I get ruined by players 10 ilvls above me and this has never ever been the case in wows history ever" is absolutely not true, but the director of the game is outright saying it as well. When will players start to look at themselves and say "well shit, maybe they are genuinely just better than me at this game" instead of "yeah well its not fair because they have better gear than me".

- - - Updated - - -



See above - You have claimed multiple times there is no point going into random bgs because you will get smashed by geared players.

- - - Updated - - -



For YEARS I was part of a casual normal / heroic group of friends, outside of my main raid team. They always cleared all of normal, and typically cleared all of heroic, although there were a couple of exceptions. Zero "requirements" other than being appropriately geared (eg not in normal dungeon gear asking for a spot in heroic raid clear). We never once had a group composition issue - not once. We once ran 3 x resto shaman as our healing time. We ran 2 bear tanks, we ran 2 dk tanks when "no one" was playing blood. Everyone has husbands/wives and kids, full time jobs, other hobbies and commitments like sport. Never once was any of this an issue, and i consider it the norm for a heroic/normal mode guild.

Sadly, due to the increase in popularity of M+, and the focus on pugging normal mode in particular, it did get hard maintaining a roster towards the end of BFA, so there was often 2-5 pugs coming along as well - again, no issue at all. We kicked a few dickheads, the odd person would leave for w/e reason, but for the most part, it was absolutely fine and quite enjoyable.

Ya I just think it's funny to me that ppl look for the socialness they crave in pugs. Instead of finding the right guild.

As for ions comment, I agree. But those ppl hes referring to are just gonna double down. With fingers in their ears and call ion an elitist dick lol

[arkanon]

Ya I just think it's funny to me that ppl look for the socialness they crave in pugs. Instead of finding the right guild.

As for ions comment, I agree. But those ppl hes referring to are just gonna double down. With fingers in their ears and call ion an elitist dick lol

During bfa, there was a group of 3 friends who really tired of the game, as we really just wanted to play together, but didnt want to pug 2 for M+ or 7+ for raids, so we stopped playing, and played Coop games instead, designed specifically to cater to groups from 1-4 players. We played Ghost Recon: Wildlands from start to finish coop, and had an absolute blast. We then did some more raiding, but again grew tired, so again stopped playing, and this time, we played Division 2 right through coop, and a fair bit of endgame too.

The point im making is, when i felt the game wasnt providing an experience that synced up well with my desires, I did NOT attack Blizzard, attack the playerbase, make wild claims about the world being against me - we found something that DID suit our needs, and had a blast. Requests for minor changes or iterations of systems is fine, i think its a healthy discussion to have. On the other hand, hyperbole, strawman arguments, exaggerations, and outright lies do nothing but turn people against not just you, but your "cause".

Recently it has reached peak "wtf?" with players who openly admit they have not purchased or played SL at all, not even once, telling us all how bad the community is, how they cant find groups, how they will get 1 shotted by everyone in bgs because they are 10 ilvls above them. I would like to think Ions comments, in particular the one about ilvls being much the same as in wrath, and the 20 ilvl gap comment would go a long way to encouraging some of these individuals to turn the lens on themselves and ask "maybe I have slipped - maybe I just used to be better?!?"

[Yriel]

When? I have been playing since the end of WoD and at no time since has there been a system that allowed people to skip dungeons and raids and still get the best loot in the game. I can't speak for the time before, but I very much doubt it since raids and dungeons are the core of the game since forever and even if, that would be 6-7 years ago, maybe time to let it go and find a game that gives you the free loot you so desperately crave.



Strange, I only see threads from the other side loudly complaining that WQs and LFR do not award them with Mythic Raid gear. I personally haven't been complaining about anything in the game (apart from the story at times) because it works as intended and does so ever since Legion.
Mythic Plus offers an endlessly playable system to do with my guild mates, Raids have been good, class balance is much better then in any other game and the QoL of the game is incredibly superior to all other MMOs I played. Of course I wouldn't mind better graphics and transmog options, but they are steadily improving.

So, I am not the one that feels the entire system of the game needs to be changed to accomodate my wishes. It just needs to remain as it is, rewarding those that engage in playing and not those that feel entitled to BiS loot for paying their sub.

Well i guess we only see what we want to see.

In Cata and MOP you could get Tier sets out of LFR, in Wrath you had tokens for doing normal heroics that could buy you raid equivalent gear and so on. Even last expansion the Warfronts gave out pretty high gear.
But your people complained endlessly about "welfare gear" (and that is funny in itself since they seem to love the "welfare but only for the rich" thing we have running right now) and that they have to do the casual stuff to be competetive so it got nerfed time and time again. It's at a lowpoint now because of all that complaining last expansion.
Job well done.

- - - Updated - - -

And the game director for World of Warcraft had this to say today:

- Power level from item rating has not changed even since Wrath.
- 1 item level is basically the equivalent of 1%.
- If there is such a big gap between players 20 item levels apart, it is more likely a skill issue.

So we now have not only players saying that this narrative of "I get ruined by players 10 ilvls above me and this has never ever been the case in wows history ever" is absolutely not true, but the director of the game is outright saying it as well. When will players start to look at themselves and say "well shit, maybe they are genuinely just better than me at this game" instead of "yeah well its not fair because they have better gear than me".

Was that directed at me? I never said anything about "getting ruined by players 10 ilvls above me" or anything of that sorts.

[Frozenbro]

I agree. The high end players in WoW care way too much about what everyone else has and how everyone else plays the game instead of focusing on themselves.

They dont xd could you guys start referring to the people that actually complain with another name? you guys dont know what high end even is and use the word around like nothing, so ill leave it clear, the actual high end players dont care about the gear or the progression you get cause it doesnt interfere with their content, you want more progression cause you are hardstuck on 200 ilvl? cool, this isnt the fault of the high end players, players that finished their progression months ago and only care about w/e the changes on the PTR are while you care about the stuff thats on live servers, so get your facts straight for once.

- - - Updated - - -

Well i guess we only see what we want to see.

In Cata and MOP you could get Tier sets out of LFR, in Wrath you had tokens for doing normal heroics that could buy you raid equivalent gear and so on. Even last expansion the Warfronts gave out pretty high gear.
But your people complained endlessly about "welfare gear" (and that is funny in itself since they seem to love the "welfare but only for the rich" thing we have running right now) and that they have to do the casual stuff to be competetive so it got nerfed time and time again. It's at a lowpoint now because of all that complaining last expansion.
Job well done.

Im just gonna quote this from another thread

You weren't getting much 264 from 2 a day Frost badges and T10 set piece base items off the vendor was 251 and H ICC 25 loot was 277 - the same 26 ilvl gap as today. And ArP scaling meant many badge 264 pieces were shit compared to ICC 25N ArP loot, let alone H 25 ICC loot. Your dream state didn't ever exist really as there was a decently aggressive glass ceiling for casual players in WOTLK too. Not quite as aggressive as it is today, but the difference between the two is less than you'd think I believe.

Raid quality gear =/= being close to mythic raiders

Truth is, you never were, it seems like you guys are the ones that only see what you want to see, with your memory betraying you here and there, maybe every 200 ilvl piece you have should say "Castle Nathria equivalent gear" instead also high end players only complained about the "cant trade stuff" part of titanforging, since it resulted in situations where you couldnt give away another guildie BiS, and this happened way too often.

[Raisei]

Well i guess we only see what we want to see.

In Cata and MOP you could get Tier sets out of LFR

Oh of the same ilvl as Mythic Raid gear? I very much doubt that somehow. You go Tier sets in LFR even in Legion. But the Ilvl difference still existed.

in Wrath you had tokens for doing normal heroics that could buy you raid equivalent gear and so on.

From what I gathered these Tokens could only be used to buy gear equivalent of 10m Normal gear. Which at the time was the lowest raiding level. For us that would be LFR gear of 184. WQs and the Campaign give you higher gear then that.

Now here is the kicker: Normal Raids in SLs give you ilvl 200 gear. The Covenant Set you can upgrade without ever setting foot in a dungeon can be upgraded to 197.

That's three Ilvls difference. 3. Add a legendary that you can farm again without ever engaging in group content and boom, you are at or above 200 ilvl, just like the Normal Raider is.

So where is the problem? According to your own examples everything is fine. You can gain Raid-equivalent loot just like this. And even easier then in the past.

The only reason people are not satified with this is that they want the best gear in the game, without putting in the effort to get it.

But your people complained endlessly about "welfare gear" (and that is funny in itself since they seem to love the "welfare but only for the rich" thing we have running right now) and that they have to do the casual stuff to be competetive so it got nerfed time and time again. It's at a lowpoint now because of all that complaining last expansion.
Job well done.

Again, I did not complain about that, so I am not sure who "my people" are. And how exactly do we have "welfare for the rich" now? Did I miss my free set of 226 gear in the mail? Hate when that happens.

No, the people you call "the rich" have grinded for their gear for month, min-maxed, enchanted, socketed. Doing at least 10 M+ 14s a week, every week and clearing the heroic raid every week. In short they worked for their stuff and hard.

Not sure how that makes it welfare in your eyes. Think you are mixing something up or you don't know what you are talking about.

[potis]

Recently it has reached peak "wtf?" with players who openly admit they have not purchased or played SL at all, not even once, telling us all how bad the community is, how they cant find groups, how they will get 1 shotted by everyone in bgs because they are 10 ilvls above them. I would like to think Ions comments, in particular the one about ilvls being much the same as in wrath, and the 20 ilvl gap comment would go a long way to encouraging some of these individuals to turn the lens on themselves and ask "maybe I have slipped - maybe I just used to be better?!?"

They were never better, its memory fallacy or call it whatever, or "Mah experience" as i call it.

People always remember when they did something they consider "out of the ordinary", even if it has no value at all in the reality of the game, its the same with people posting "I finally did a +10" and you go "Huh, what about a +10 is even remotely worth discussing?", but its their experience and you cant take it from them.

Its like an amateur football team winning their local football league between 40 year olds on Saturdays only, since everyone is working which has no value at all, but they are acting like they won the Champion League every time its mentioned and you cant understand wtf is going on in their minds.

The random casual PvPer remember when he was given free gear at some point in the game, and he used to 1 shot the people that havent farmed yet/alts etc, now that this is happening to him, he is complaining.

They dont remember that it took them 1-2 months back then and it was the same, and then they were doing it to others, all that matters is that now because they grew up and play less, this "Why aint i 1 shotting people as i used to", takes longer to achieve, what is easier? Use common sense, or complain?

- - - Updated - - -

The only reason people are not satified with this is that they want the best gear in the game, without putting in the effort to get it.

Its not even that, the arguments have reached new levels.

The arguments literally reached "I want a system where it counts how long i have been logged on and i am given a Mythic raider equivalent item cause i pay for a sub and it shouldnt matter what i do in game, i pay."

[Scarnage86]

OMG 101 page! wow! never think this can generate so much comment
Btw when i create this post, was because my brother that play wow in a mythic guild 8/10 get super mad at me back when i created this post because i dropped a good trinket from denathrius hc (that i have done with his help i admit), and he know that after i got my 10/10 hc i'll have frozen, so he got mad as hell.
In respond to his madness i say to him "bro, if i can pass it i will for sure, but ffs why the best item that can have helped me before drop only at the end when i quit?"

Sry for the wrong use of casual btw, i should have use bad player instead

And to comment the recent "200-220ilvl difference is 20% and so skill matter most"
FOR SURE!!!! But tell me this: what is the easiest:
Increase a flat 20% raw power of a bad player so he can pass his goal (complete normal/hc)
Increase an unknow lvl of skill of a bad player so he can pass his goal (complete normal/hc)

Bye all btw, i move as suggested to other game, and i find lootershooter a good home for me (the division 2 in particular)

[Freedom]

I'll just repost this from another thread-
"So I remember being perfectly happy to farm MC in Vanilla to get T1 and feel like a badass for having killed Nefarian once (lol). And I'd inspect all the players with AQ40/Naxx gear and be envious, but still happy overall with the game. Now people can't even tolerate a number being higher, let alone lower players generally not having access to cool looking gear in Vanilla, whereas now even if you're in quest greens you can look pretty cool thanks to old content and transmog. And yes, I remember being mad that the Tauren hunter in T2 could easily beat me in PVP, but that wasn't THE reason that I quit back then.

Is this just an overall cultural shift in both WoW and IRL that people whine for equality rather than saying, "Yes, that is a nice Mercedes, and I am just thankful for what I have" or am I some sort of weirdo for having had these attitudes back then, let alone now?"

Honestly if you simply cannot enjoy the current game at all due to inequality then I don't know how you ever enjoyed the game. Like @Frozenbro's statement- there was, is and always will be gear and skill gaps. Even if the game were simplified to the point that all you did was press 1 button to DPS, there would be top parsers who press that button more often than Johhny B Bad who presses it half as much. You dislike something so much, it's either time to step up your game or quit like I did early Legion. Being without WoW is not going to end you.

[crusadernero]

I'm sure you could find a guild that only raids normal. Same difficulty raids. Can tryhard if u like but no need. No need to pick best spec. All the social of classic can be found in guilds in retail

Yeah they can, but they are far between and in the muddle of everything its diffcult to spot em. With cross realm theres so many guilds floating around. I might give it another shot when 9.1 is out.

- - - Updated - - -

I'll just repost this from another thread-
"So I remember being perfectly happy to farm MC in Vanilla to get T1 and feel like a badass for having killed Nefarian once (lol). And I'd inspect all the players with AQ40/Naxx gear and be envious, but still happy overall with the game. Now people can't even tolerate a number being higher, let alone lower players generally not having access to cool looking gear in Vanilla, whereas now even if you're in quest greens you can look pretty cool thanks to old content and transmog. And yes, I remember being mad that the Tauren hunter in T2 could easily beat me in PVP, but that wasn't THE reason that I quit back then.

Is this just an overall cultural shift in both WoW and IRL that people whine for equality rather than saying, "Yes, that is a nice Mercedes, and I am just thankful for what I have" or am I some sort of weirdo for having had these attitudes back then, let alone now?"

Honestly if you simply cannot enjoy the current game at all due to inequality then I don't know how you ever enjoyed the game. Like @Frozenbro's statement- there was, is and always will be gear and skill gaps. Even if the game were simplified to the point that all you did was press 1 button to DPS, there would be top parsers who press that button more often than Johhny B Bad who presses it half as much. You dislike something so much, it's either time to step up your game or quit like I did early Legion. Being without WoW is not going to end you.

Back then killing bosses like nefarian was considered a cool thing to do, even though newer raids dropped better gear. I played back then too and raided everything except naxx. I enjoyed kill Ragnaros every week, even though he didnt drop anything worthwhile for me. I also remember the raids not really being that hard, except having to coordinate 40 people(get them raid ready, farm stuff etc). When all raids were out in vanilla I would still do them. It was fun banter with guild.

In retail everything "old" is considered obsolote and utterly useless. We move on from raid to raid and leave each one behind forever. Theres no depth to it. The whole game centers into current raid and m+. Castle nathria can have great bosses, but that raid is too easily forgettable.

[Malania]

Reward for effort involved. Basic economics point out CEO's get paid more than mail room assistants. Inequality is part of the deal.

[splatomat]

Reward for effort involved. Basic economics point out CEO's get paid more than mail room assistants. Inequality is part of the deal.

You think the average CEO of a company puts in more effort than their frontline employees, huh. LOL okay

Plus, your analogy doesn't actually support your position. In your analogy, both the CEO and the mail room assistant progress using the same currency. The mail room assistant just does it more slowly. If both of them want to buy a fancy suit, they probably both can. One just has to save a lot longer.

That's actually what I'd love to see in this game: a system that rewards all playstyles, and just does it in scale. Valor could have been that system, but was instead a half-baked mess (but then that's keeping in theme with SL entirely).

[Feral Druid ist Op]

And the game director for World of Warcraft had this to say today:

- Power level from item rating has not changed even since Wrath.
- 1 item level is basically the equivalent of 1%.
- If there is such a big gap between players 20 item levels apart, it is more likely a skill issue.

So we now have not only players saying that this narrative of "I get ruined by players 10 ilvls above me and this has never ever been the case in wows history ever" is absolutely not true, but the director of the game is outright saying it as well. When will players start to look at themselves and say "well shit, maybe they are genuinely just better than me at this game" instead of "yeah well its not fair because they have better gear than me".

And Ion is 100% right i simmed my 225 main with same gear but ilvl 203 and i lost 19,4% dps but you would require a half of brain to sim you stuff that the lazy ppls dont have (see the statments about "i cant open my own grp cuz ppl hate me and dont join" arguments) and complain on forums how they are 5x weaker than a mythic raider power wise, so yea "git gud" like Ion said.

[roboscorcher]

Reward for effort involved. Basic economics point out CEO's get paid more than mail room assistants. Inequality is part of the deal.

In a real-world society, you can argue that a pure capitalistic model (no catchup systems) works. I think it has many flaws, but that's beside the point. In a videogame though, if you have no safety net for people slipping through the cracks of the meta, they will quit. They do not have the real-world incentive to continue toiling away at the bottom to pay the bills. They will simply leave once the meta leaves them behind, and the community will shrink significantly. This affects the economy as the market shinks, and there are less people to group with.

[Echocho]

In a real-world society, you can argue that a pure capitalistic model (no catchup systems) works. I think it has many flaws, but that's beside the point. In a videogame though, if you have no safety net for people slipping through the cracks of the meta, they will quit. They do not have the real-world incentive to continue toiling away at the bottom to pay the bills. They will simply leave once the meta leaves them behind, and the community will shrink significantly. This affects the economy as the market shinks, and there are less people to group with.

If you want any society worth its name you need to have achievers and performers to do the heavy lifting.
They should get a bit extra for that of course but they don't have to be dicks about it and someone who works twice as much but doing easier work shouldn't have to live in poverty.

That's why the badge system was so great. It would take longer both in /played and in calendar time but you could get the second best gear in the game. Other games do it with great success, why can't WoW?