Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[potis]

snip

They are all over the forum btw, the people you are talking about, you dont have to quote particular moments, but there are multiple people that claim exactly what the person is saying because mostly, memory problems, its the old badge system.

Most of these people remember TBC/Wrath where eventually they would get some freebie items from the badge vendor, which was close or exactly raid gear, the only difference is they dont remember it was only a few items, and how long it took, and how it was spread out over multiple vendors and how slow they were getting them.

But yeah, when ICC lasts 14 months, and Little Billy kills 1-2 bosses in normal 10man on repeat, eventually gets the 264 ilvl, which means he was getting raiding gear from irrelevant content.

They dont realize, the people he is yelling about had unsubbed 6 months earlier and were waiting for Cataclysm in full gear, because he finally bought all the vendor items after 14 months.

Same with PvP in MoP as example, i clearly remember not playing for a good 2 years, only to re-sub and pretty much gear every alt in mere hours that way, by spamming some easy arenas, destroying the weaker players-->Fully geared character, not in Elite PvP or Mythic level, but enough to be relevant.

The problem is the game now is exactly the same, people just refuse to accept it, they just remember "i DID THIS THEN",they dont remember "IT TOOK ME A MONTH TO DO IT THEN", they just want it to not take a month now, without any consequences, they dont want to go 1-3-6-9 in terms of power level, they want to go 1-10, because 6 months in they eventually meet someone at 10 that destroys them, while ignoring the fact they met another 1000 people same as them, cause it fits their narrative.

[munkeyinorbit]

Because in the mind of the "skilled player" is like giving a Bugatti Chiron to a 90 yo grandma... it won't get used to its full extent.

We would welcome that grandma if she wanted to come racing with us. If she's just going to local bingo then she can take the bus.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm literally trying to ask you where are these people you talk about? So let's go at it once again, and this time even clearer:
Show me the guy who wants his 226 gear from doing nothing but their "casual gaming".
Quote him, take a screenshot, give me his number/name or whatever. I want to see this casual guy you talk about.

Tadkins. He doesn't even have SL and he wants to be given 226 so he can do random BG.

- - - Updated - - -

I do wish casual stayed as a time commitment turn rather then wow letting the community twist it into "being so awful at the game its a miracle they manage to move their character".

No other community I know of uses casual as a short hand for retarded.

Those are your words. Stop projecting into others. I am a casual and I mange to get 3 220s and a 226 a week. 10 hours played.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd love to try and push myself. I don't have the greatest confidence in myself and I do stumble a bit though, but I'd be glad to try and learn to get better. If I came back, would you help me?

Help yourself. Get to 60. Spend 5 hours getting covenant gear and buy 1 200 trinket, 2 168 rings. Do Torghast for 171 neck and a legendary. 10k gold spent. Lvl 30 reknown. 185 ilvl. You're now ready for group content within a week. Do ONE m+ for a 200 or higher. LFR for better jewelry.

[potis]

I do wish casual stayed as a time commitment turn rather then wow letting the community twist it into "being so awful at the game its a miracle they manage to move their character".

No other community I know of uses casual as a short hand for retarded.

Man, sorry to break it to you..

Firstly, i aint perfect, i fuck up, but as a tank/raid leader, i call out my fuck up cause we are wiping very quickly if i fuck up .

I have a HC only raid group/guild the last 3 expansion that scales from 15 to 30 people depending ,most of them, have been part of the Top 20-200 world raiding scene in the past 17 years, even if it wasnt getting tracked, it still existed, or generally some sort of Mythic raider/Old Heroic system raid, ICC/ToT clearing etc etc, maybe not Top 100 world like the rest, but they cleared the raid, generally you consider them part of the top 1-2% players in World of Warcraft if we assume the 12mil claimed active players each new expansion launch, most burnt out from the multiple raid nights, and now are just casual "scrubs" on alts, like myself.

Every single raid night, i literally ask myself and them cause we are a banter guild first and foremost "How are you fuckers so bad at this god damn game, we literally cleared this raid 15 times already".

Cause trust me, if these guys stick with me for so many years after talking to them like that all the time when they fuck up, there must be a reason.

Can you imagine what the rest 99-98% of the WoW community looks like to me?

Some of these guys are literal raid loggers, actual casuals, not the "I play 40 hours a week and i am stuck at +5, therefor i am casual", and i consider them braindead 9/10 raids, can you even comprehend how the actual casual looks like?

[Crimson Spears]

Man, sorry to break it to you..

Firstly, i aint perfect, i fuck up, but as a tank/raid leader, i call out my fuck up cause we are wiping very quickly if i fuck up .

I have a HC only raid group/guild the last 3 expansion that scales from 15 to 30 people depending ,most of them, have been part of the Top 20-200 world raiding scene in the past 17 years, even if it wasnt getting tracked, it still existed, or generally some sort of Mythic raider/Old Heroic system raid, ICC/ToT clearing etc etc, maybe not Top 100 world like the rest, but they cleared the raid, generally you consider them part of the top 1-2% players in World of Warcraft if we assume the 12mil claimed active players each new expansion launch, most burnt out from the multiple raid nights, and now are just casual "scrubs" on alts, like myself.

Every single raid night, i literally ask myself and them cause we are a banter guild first and foremost "How are you fuckers so bad at this god damn game, we literally cleared this raid 15 times already".

Cause trust me, if these guys stick with me for so many years after talking to them like that all the time when they fuck up, there must be a reason.

Can you imagine what the rest 99-98% of the WoW community looks like to me?

Some of these guys are literal raid loggers, actual casuals, not the "I play 40 hours a week and i am stuck at +5, therefor i am casual", and i consider them braindead 9/10 raids, can you even comprehend how the actual casual looks like?

I've not really pugged unless you count selling carries in the last... god I think was back in cata I pugged. I like to imagine the community as a whole kept around the heroic dungeon tbc level/cata heroic level and I willfully refuse to check to see if that belief is accurate or not.

[Aliven]

Help yourself. Get to 60. Spend 5 hours getting covenant gear and buy 1 200 trinket, 2 168 rings. Do Torghast for 171 neck and a legendary. 10k gold spent. Lvl 30 reknown. 185 ilvl. You're now ready for group content within a week. Do ONE m+ for a 200 or higher. LFR for better jewelry.

One campaing scenario can take hour. To complete everything you need 8, and then you dont have anima to upgrade gear. So no 5 hours, you start at renown lvl 1 and need to complete other activities to unlock renown levels.

I takes much, much, much more time to unlock full set of covenant armor (let alone upgrade it). But go with slippery slope more, it is fun to point out bullshit.

[potis]

I've not really pugged unless you count selling carries in the last... god I think was back in cata I pugged. I like to imagine the community as a whole kept around the heroic dungeon tbc level/cata heroic level and I willfully refuse to check to see if that belief is accurate or not.

Overall yes, despite what people claim the community has increased achievement wise, ten fold, but skill wise they havent increased.

The game design and mostly the X.3 patches have allowed multiple people to get things they would never get if the game was designed the old way, and required a certain higher skill set.

So basically its overall the same, the segregation is accurate the first ~2 months of each patch cycle, then around the 5th-6th month (Generally the month before the next patch or if its the X.3 patch around there, 5th-6th month the scaling starts) is where you notice that there is a huge amount of people with relevant gear/raider.io/HC clears that dont even know that "This particular mob needs to be stunned or the tank dies" as a very tiny example.

My own example, i have been above 220 ilvl and around 1200-1300 raider.io for 3 months now, i only "rushed" KSM after the valor announce as example, i generally spam keys for guildies to get their weekly 14/15s so the raid had a "Balanced" gear progression, i have no interest in pushing keys higher, i have other games to play instead, also you get burnt out running so many keys to help people for weeks.

I still do it more sporadically now, cause we have alts, most have 2-3 alts around 220 ilvl, so a weekly each, mix around, we all do 4-5 M+, split our alts around, pug a healer or a DPS here and there.

And its exactly the same as it was in patch 8.3, 8.2, 8.1.5, 7.3 7.2 7.1 when the content isnt really relevant and you have gotten things done 2-3 months ago, and so on.

Since its the 5th-6th month of the active patch, a majority of people caught up, they have the raider.io they are 220 ilvl, but they are so fucking horrible my brain fries playing with them.

Invite the 2k raider.io 225 ilvl hunter? He knows exactly when to interrupt, what stun, where to binding shot if i leap away, how to do this, how to stand.

Risk and Invite the 1300 raider.io 220 ilvl hunter with a rather okay number of cleared +12-14s and a few 15s? Its just weekly vault, timer is irrelevant, why not? Lets help this random dude out, good deed of the week! What do you end up with---> Tranq shot? Is that a hunter ability?

This becomes even worst at X.3 patches since there are usually 9-12 months of waiting involved so even more catch up.

[Crimson Spears]

Overall yes, despite what people claim the community has increased achievement wise, ten fold, but skill wise they havent increased.

The game design and mostly the X.3 patches have allowed multiple people to get things they would never get if the game was designed the old way, and required a certain higher skill set.

So basically its overall the same, the segregation is accurate the first ~2 months of each patch cycle, then around the 5th-6th month (Generally the month before the next patch or if its the X.3 patch around there, 5th-6th month the scaling starts) is where you notice that there is a huge amount of people with relevant gear/raider.io/HC clears that dont even know that "This particular mob needs to be stunned or the tank dies" as a very tiny example.

My own example, i have been above 220 ilvl and around 1200-1300 raider.io for 3 months now, i only "rushed" KSM after the valor announce as example, i generally spam keys for guildies to get their weekly 14/15s so the raid had a "Balanced" gear progression, i have no interest in pushing keys higher, i have other games to play instead, also you get burnt out running so many keys to help people for weeks.

I still do it more sporadically now, cause we have alts, most have 2-3 alts around 220 ilvl, so a weekly each, mix around, we all do 4-5 M+, split our alts around, pug a healer or a DPS here and there.

And its exactly the same as it was in patch 8.3, 8.2, 8.1.5, 7.3 7.2 7.1 when the content isnt really relevant and you have gotten things done 2-3 months ago, and so on.

Since its the 5th-6th month of the active patch, a majority of people caught up, they have the raider.io they are 220 ilvl, but they are so fucking horrible my brain fries playing with them.

Invite the 2k raider.io 225 ilvl hunter? He knows exactly when to interrupt, what stun, where to binding shot if i leap away, how to do this, how to stand.

Risk and Invite the 1300 raider.io 220 ilvl hunter with a rather okay number of cleared +12-14s and a few 15s? Its just weekly vault, timer is irrelevant, why not? Lets help this random dude out, good deed of the week! What do you end up with---> Tranq shot? Is that a hunter ability?

This becomes even worst at X.3 patches since there are usually 9-12 months of waiting involved so even more catch up.

Sounds like the perfect butchering ground to lock new but talented players out of relevant content for them while boosting terrible players at the same time.

Thanks I hate it.

[ohwell]

One campaing scenario can take hour. To complete everything you need 8, and then you dont have anima to upgrade gear. So no 5 hours, you start at renown lvl 1 and need to complete other activities to unlock renown levels.

I takes much, much, much more time to unlock full set of covenant armor (let alone upgrade it). But go with slippery slope more, it is fun to point out bullshit.

Lol YES you do have enough anima available week 1. Stop spreading that lie. ToP, DoS, SD give 750 a pop first clear. Dentharius gives a truckload. 175x 2 for weeklies, random epic bg gives 175 a day for first win(105 for normal but meh), 250 from weekly pvp quest, and about another 1k or so a day from world quests. If you actually knew how to maximize your time you could accomplish several of these at the same time.

Then again you're claiming it takes you 1 hour per campaign chapter when it should take you half of that except for maybe the finales which should only be about 45 at most

You also don't start at 1 if you leveled properly. You start at 4 with 2 available at 60 bringing you already to 6(more once you include the campaigns).

So sure 5 hours might be extreme, but it shouldn't take more than 1-2 days to max out cov gear.

[ellieg]

One campaing scenario can take hour. To complete everything you need 8, and then you dont have anima to upgrade gear. So no 5 hours, you start at renown lvl 1 and need to complete other activities to unlock renown levels.

I takes much, much, much more time to unlock full set of covenant armor (let alone upgrade it). But go with slippery slope more, it is fun to point out bullshit.

Campaign chapters shldnt take anywhere near more than 30 mins if you're actually focusing.

As for anima, you get 750 from the SD quest, 750 from the ToP quest, 1250 from the sire quest, 105 from from each of the first 8 bosses of CN, 175 from final 2. Thats 3,950 anima for about 4-5 hours. Another 250 from world boss. If you run a quick normal/heroic for the 2 weekly quests which might have already been SD or ToP, thats 350 more for abt an hr. Thata now 4540 anima. Should be enough to upgrade everything, especially if your legendary is 1 of those 9 slots, which considering they cover everything but weapon, neck, cloak, rings, trinkets...they should be. Very few exceptions.

With those 2-4 dungeons, world boss, 10 lfr bosses, that is a lot of renown. You get 7 from the campaign. Throw in a few daily win bg/epic bg/skirmish for the bonus honor to get a few offpieces, you'll have even more renown and anima.

Also a renown from the souls quest and the 1k anima quest.

[Spazzix]

The game is balanced around character power.
If everyone gets all the loot then you have an issue where the content is either trivial for the good players (because obtaining loot is so easy) or is insanely hard for the casual players (because the game is tuned around bis gear).

So either way someone gets screwed.

When you lock gear behind certain walls you can do modular tuning for different groups of players.

[Soon-TM]

So either way someone gets screwed.

And with the sole exception of Legion (and maybe WotLK, YMMV) they've decided to screw the casual players.

EDIT: forgot about BC PvP gear, I still remember all the tryhards QQ'ing about "welfare gear" at the time, even if by no means they stayed behind when it came to grabbing those sweet Arena purplez.

[Tadkins]

And with the sole exception of Legion (and maybe WotLK, YMMV) they've decided to screw the casual players.

BC too, honor gear and badge gear was quite nice. I'd love to be able to return to that system.

[Echocho]

Somebody can't read. This thread is full of people that don't play the game telling people who do play the game that they want things just by logging in and doing a WQ. They don't understand that this will destroy wow because noone will do the endgame because you can just do WQ instead. This is not a single player game.

World quests are an endgame activity.

[Glorious Leader]

And with the sole exception of Legion (and maybe WotLK, YMMV) they've decided to screw the casual players.

EDIT: forgot about BC PvP gear, I still remember all the tryhards QQ'ing about "welfare gear" at the time, even if by no means they stayed behind when it came to grabbing those sweet Arena purplez.

Thats the shittiest part is that for all their bitching about welfare epics and forced content these assholes still participated anyway. Why they fucking catered to these people ill never know. It makes zero sense. Gutting rewards just screws over everybody else and it isn't even really what the complaining assholes wanted because their actions were the exact opposite of what they were complaining about. Its so irrational to cater to them Its like you had a product that sold so fucking well that people, grown fucking adults by and large were literally complaining about how compelled they were to purchase your product. So you fucked with that formula.

[Frozenbro]

World quests are an endgame activity.

True, an endgame activity that gives appropriate rewards for what it takes to do it.

[kaelix1]

I'm not sure how skilled i consider myself to be, i would put myself more in a veteran rank,i feel skill is not such a huge 'mountain' nowadays will al the info you can find on the internet

The reason i don't like the new system is simple, it devalues the gear, i remember when i start this game and how amazed i was when I saw a top gear up character in orgrimmar,that pushes me to try and improve myself, in my opinion, gear should be rewarded for effort and time invest, seeing a 226 boomkin doing less dps then your 215 no meta character leave a bad taste

[Yriel]

Again, you get free epics from your Covenant Story, which you can upgrade by doing WQs to ilvl 197, which is extremely close to Normal Raid gear. World Content is not becoming trivial because the world increases in difficulty as you increase in power. A system that has been in place since Legion to allow you to level anywhere you like and have a decent challenge even if you are highly geared.

And that gets me where? Twisting corridors level 4 according to Blizzard?
Can i do world elites solo like the 225 people?

Why don't they scale the worldcontent in a way that high ilvl people can't solo all of that either?

And I still do not understand what you mean with this nonesense of "welfare for the rich". The "rich" are WORKING for their gear.

Just like in real life. But somehow all the champaign socialists are totally ok with benefits for the rich when they are the rich. You work for it, right? I think that is what all the millionaires say in real life, too.
It's laughable that i had to hear your people whine about welfare gear since TBC and now suddenly getting free gear each week and upgrade points just for running dungeons is a-ok.
"B-B-But the droprates are so bad"... Yeah.. but they are bad in heroic dungeons too.

- - - Updated - - -

And with the sole exception of Legion (and maybe WotLK, YMMV) they've decided to screw the casual players.

Late Cata and MOP were ok, too in that regard. LRF dropped the tier sets, that was pretty nice.

[roboscorcher]

I just didn't like the fact that I would have an extremely difficult time getting to raid as a shadow priest in Classic, that I'd have to conform to being a healer if I wanted to see raid content. But I do appreciate that it was far simpler there than it was on retail. You actually get to fight bosses in Classic, not play DDR with them.

I was the 'token ret' in my guild, so I hear ya brother. Classic raids had a lot of problems which is why I left for Shadowlands. That said, I miss the simplicity of classic. I'm excited to play ret in TBC and not be a meme spec.

[Raisei]

And that gets me where? Twisting corridors level 4 according to Blizzard?
Can i do world elites solo like the 225 people?

Why don't they scale the worldcontent in a way that high ilvl people can't solo all of that either?

You complained that there were no free epics. I tell you there are, a full set of them actually and on the same level as Normal Raid loot. But that is not enough of course. Just as I thought. It's never going to be enough until they give you free max level items.

Since you voluntarily exclude yourself from getting better loot, you also exclude yourself from higher level content like Layer 8 of the TC. That's how the game works. You make the choice, you live with it.

Also, many of the rares in the world can't be soloed even at high ilvl, you need to be careful. Basically when a rare has upwards of 200k health it's not soloable no matter what your gear is, around 40-60k can be done and even at lower ilvl.
As I explained, the world scales automatically to give everyone a fair challenge, higher gear will only give the rare more health and make it hit harder. If you have seen people wipe those rares out while you die every time, then they are simply better players then you, using both offensive and defensive CDs to their advantage and doing the mechanics (if any) on a rare.
Surprisingly, doing higher level content instead of trivial stuff makes you a better player in all aspects of the game.

Just like in real life. But somehow all the champaign socialists are totally ok with benefits for the rich when they are the rich. You work for it, right? I think that is what all the millionaires say in real life, too.

Asked you two times now how and where there is any "welfare for the rich" currently and you have both times failed to give an example. Which makes me question if you even play the game, or if you do, if you made that up purely to create some excuse to insert your anti-capitalist agenda into this gaming discussion.

Now you proceed to discredit the effort the people at a higher gear level have put into reaching that level to distract from your lack of evidence.

It's laughable that i had to hear your people whine about welfare gear since TBC and now suddenly getting free gear each week and upgrade points just for running dungeons is a-ok.
"B-B-But the droprates are so bad"... Yeah.. but they are bad in heroic dungeons too.

- - - Updated - - -

Again, what free gear? The Vault? ... Most players do 10 Mythic + 14 every week to get that ONE item there. That is around 5 hours of play time invested every week. If you think that is "free" then you have no idea what you are talking about.

As for Valor Points. You get them starting from M+2 the lowest level the system has, easily doable at 200 ilvl. And you get the same amount at every key level. The only thing stopping you from profitting of this system just like the "rich" is your own unwillingness and lazyness and the believe that you are entitled to the best gear in game without any personal effort, because you pay the Devs 13 € a month.

Late Cata and MOP were ok, too in that regard. LRF dropped the tier sets, that was pretty nice.

Tier sets don't currently exist, ergo you can't get tier sets in LFR. But with Ion declaring their return for 9.2. you will be getting them in LFR again.

[Yriel]

You complained that there were no free epics. I tell you there are, a full set of them actually and on the same level as Normal Raid loot. But that is not enough of course. Just as I thought. It's never going to be enough until they give you free max level items.

Since you voluntarily exclude yourself from getting better loot, you also exclude yourself from higher level content like Layer 8 of the TC. That's how the game works. You make the choice, you live with it.

So keep the status quo, i get it.
If thats you answer to the titel of this thread no more conversation is nessecary.

Again, what free gear? The Vault? ... Most players do 10 Mythic + 14 every week to get that ONE item there. That is around 5 hours of play time invested every week. If you think that is "free" then you have no idea what you are talking about.

You do dungeons for loot from the bosses within. Thats it. As far as i know M+ bosses do drop loot, don't they?
But then you get free loot for nothing on top of that every week. If that is not welfare i don't know what is.