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  1. #161
    This is entirely subjective, because as you can see by the replies in this thread, people are reading the question as "when did wows design change in a way that you personally do not like". People are viewing it as "it was good up until this point, then it was bad".
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    Any sane person would see your a moron.
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    you have to be a moron to of said .

  2. #162
    Pretty sure it was Cata

  3. #163
    Bloodsail Admiral Snowflakesz's Avatar
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    Short answer, Legion.

    Not an easy question to answer. I would divide WoW into time periods.

    First era, Vanilla & TBC
    Basic WoW.

    Second era, WotLK & Cata
    This is when things started changing, multiple difficulties, LFR and more.

    Third era, MoP & WoD
    We got new, slightly more advanced systems, such as reforging and the mission table. And Legendary items for everyone.

    Fourth era, Legion and onward.
    This is the current era of WoW, and definitely what I would consider the start of "Modern" WoW.
    Seriously advanced system, such as alternate skill trees etc, major secondary progression systems.
    Last edited by Snowflakesz; 2021-04-11 at 01:18 AM.
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    i am no weeb. i am just a connoisseur of fine waifus.

  4. #164
    i think it started in 10 man naxxramas tbh, but since that expansion had some great things it usually cata+

    tbh wow can be split into more eras at this point, like super cringe comic hero era

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflakesz View Post
    Not an easy question to answer.

    First era, Vanilla & TBC
    Basic WoW.

    Second era, WotLK & Cata
    This is when things started changing, multiple difficulties, LFR and more.

    Third era, MoP & WoD
    We got new, slightly more advanced systems, such as reforging and the mission table. And Legendary items for everyone.

    Fourth era, Legion and onward.
    This is the current era of WoW, and definitely what I would consider the start of "Modern" WoW.
    Seriously advanced system, such an alternate skill trees etc, major secondary progression systems.

    This is my answer as well. Legion is fairly obviously when this current era began. Whether you want to call this era, or the eras beginning with WotLK or MoP "modern WoW" is completely subjective. WoW has had 4 clear "eras" though... and maybe even 5 if you want to further break down the "current" era into "The RNG era" of Legion/BFA and the "Post-RNG era" of Shadowlands.

    It really depends on how you're dividing things in your mind though. Is it gameplay mindset? Features? Systemization? There are many ways to view it.

    1 correction though, Reforging was in Cata, not MoP.

  6. #166
    Bloodsail Admiral Snowflakesz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    This is my answer as well. Legion is fairly obviously when this current era began. Whether you want to call this era, or the eras beginning with WotLK or MoP "modern WoW" is completely subjective. WoW has had 4 clear "eras" though... and maybe even 5 if you want to further break down the "current" era into "The RNG era" of Legion/BFA and the "Post-RNG era" of Shadowlands.

    It really depends on how you're dividing things in your mind though. Is it gameplay mindset? Features? Systemization? There are many ways to view it.

    1 correction though, Reforging was in Cata, not MoP.
    That's my bad, didn't know Reforging came about in Cata, it's the only expansion is basically didn't play at all.
    In hindsight I would probably still group them the same way. I really do think the "Legendary slot", was a much bigger deal, than reforging.

    In WoD, we also got the mission tables, which is definitely a modern system, but all in all Cata to WoD, was pretty "smooth" step ups in tech.
    Legion is really when we took the big leap, towards seriously advanced systems. The Artifact and things like the Crucible, was really light years ahead of anything we've seen before.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    You will eventually realize nobody takes you seriously.
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i am no weeb. i am just a connoisseur of fine waifus.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefall View Post
    Cata is not when the talent system changed, you have no idea what you're talking about, that was MoP.
    Uhh... no. That happened during Cata. Since you dont even know the basics, why are you talking, again?

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    i can easily point to WoD as first exp where u can cover everything u want by pure solo content without the need to even /hi anyone, wrath didn't have that option, nor cata
    You did challenge modes, mythic raiding, garrison invasions etc without ever chatting? Interesting. WoD was crap expansion but seriously, Wrath was more solo friendly than WoD was. You could do everything in game in Wrath except cutting edge raiding without an organised group. There was nothing outside of progression raiding that wasnt easily gotten into solo/casually along with catchup gear obsoleting the previous tier entirely so you could skip previous raids entirely.

    TBC if you think you got better than raid gear from badges then you are delusional. You got a couple of items which were near quality to the max raid loot. And it was tied behind group content that wasnt readily puggable until near the end and/or raiding. TBC you needed a group to even get through attunements to get into heroic dungeons let alone touching raids. You also needed group content to get the materials to make decent crafting items.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Yeah.
    1) Phase 1 - is Vanilla-WotLK. That's, when game was growing, not declining.
    2) Phase 2 - is Cata-MOP. That's, when some problems started. Further way required game to evolve even more and to become even more casual friendly, but Blizzard started to backpedal, because despite of having super-profits they didn't want to invest this money into increasing quantity and quality of content.
    3) Dunno, if WOD should be in Cata-MOP, Legion-SL or even in it's own league. It's some sort of transition phase. It doesn't seem to belong to either of sides. Yeah, it was last casual-friendly xpack in Wow's history, but at the same time changes towards Legion model were too drastic to just ignore them. For example change of visual style and attempt to remove flying.
    4) Phase 3 - Legion-SL. Return of grind, unfriendly niche game, cheaper development, etc. Overall decline in interest and attempts of Blizzard to keep players playing via forcing them into content, instead of making game, they would like to play by themselves.
    This is what I was thinking as well. I would put WoD in it's own phase or phase 2.5.

    I emboldened what I believe was the most important thing you noted. All original (maybe pre-Activision) Blizzard game were games made by gamers as games they would enjoy playing themselves. Even though I disagree with some of the design choices in Cata & MoP, WoD and later really feels like games engineered for maximizing profit versus just focusing on making them fun.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    I dont see how people are saying Cata, like 99% of the systems were identical in cata to wotlk.

    Mists id say saw the first major changes.

    Major system changes throughout the expansion saw the game evolve heavily.

    Reputation stuff changed heavily, legos for everyone, titanforged gear, it was the first expansion with LFR throughout the entire thing, challenge modes, pets battles, flex raids, scenarios, catch up zones like timeless isle, having tons of 'rare' mobs.

    I mean maybe Im just forgetting stuff that changed in Cata but from what I remember it was very similar to previous expansions, mists onwards is when we see these sweeping changes to the game imo.
    They include Cata as a change point because it completely overhauled the talent system, and completely overhauled the questing systems (outside of Outland and Northrend). It was also a point where major changes were made to homogenize class abilities so that more classes overlapped abilities removing uniqueness of several key abilities.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  10. #170
    Legion. Sadly.

    I really don't understand why people glorify Legion that much. It was really, REALLY bad expansion in my eyes. Endless rng grind-fest is NOT fun. + all classes are RUINED since legion.

  11. #171
    legion started the current wow era. xpac systems bloat. ton of dead specs. M+ and raiderio. gold boosts for everything. no new permanent skills or talents.

  12. #172
    You have that the wrong way around OP.

    WoW started out as an MMO for hard core players, everyone else was excluded from end game content.

    It gradually shifted to allow more content for casual players as time went on.

    Due to COVID-19, Germany is running out of sausages and cheese.
    The government considers this to be the Wurst Käse scenario

  13. #173
    Vanilla to Wotlk (Ulduar raid)
    That was classic. After Ulduar that's when all the Cata-style design decisions came into play.
    Stupid immersion breaking moments happened, and dumb character decisions. Forexample:

    Suddenly we're jousting in Icecrown, then we invade Icecrown without using any of that jousting we did...Then wtf was it for?!
    People died in a war against the Scourge while the Argents had us ride around on Horses with lances.

    Then the Icecrown raid comes, and they don't have either Jaina or Sylvanas present when Arthas died...Really?!
    This was also when they started to have important lore events happen in books instead of ingame.

    Before this point, books went in depth and revealed details and backstory leading to events.
    Icecrown Citadel and after is when you needed a book to find out what happened.
    Forexample you needed a book to find out how Sylvanas and Jaina reacted to the death of Arthas.

    Then there's systems. Ulduar was the last raid designed by the same people who designed the BC raids and it shows.
    Furthermore, Looking for Dungeon was also added at this point. Questing also became extremely linear, you couldn't skip a quest anymore.

    These design decisions carried on into Cata and when Cata deleted the old world, that's when it hit people that the game wasn't the same anymore.
    Everything after the Classic era, is Blizzard trying to earn back the reputation and playerbase they had, but they never quite reached Wotlk status.

    Legion was however noted as a positive step by everyone, me included.
    But BFA and Shadowlands is just more of the same now.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurluas View Post
    Legion was however noted as a positive step by everyone, me included.
    Eh, not everyone. I think Legion is what got us into this current mess, and led to all of the horrible years WoW has had since then. Just because Legion was "good" for 1, maybe 2 of its patches late in its lifecycle does not make it a good expansion. You can draw a straight line from Legions systems to the absolute catastrophe that was BFA... and we still have not recovered from it.

  15. #175
    The Insane Chickat's Avatar
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    I would say WoW has had 3 phases.

    Classic and TBC is Phase 1. Wrath might be phase 1 as well, but they started transitioning into phase 2 in Wrath.
    Cata, MoP, and WoD are phase 2. Wod started transitioning into Modern WoW with Garrisons and systems, but I think other then that its still similar to Cata and MoP.
    Legion, BFA, Shadowlands might as well all be the same with different themes. This is Phase 3.

    Hopefully, 10.0 is Phase 4 and we get something different. Im growing tired of the player power system etc. I want Blizzard to merge the best parts of Phase 2 and 3 and cherry pick a few things from 1 and make 4 great.

    Gearing from Phase 2 is the major thing I want changed. Bring back Valor vendors. Bring back MoP end game honestly. Endgame was at its best in MoP. Im sure they can find a way to make Mythic+ fit in there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    Eh, not everyone. I think Legion is what got us into this current mess, and led to all of the horrible years WoW has had since then. Just because Legion was "good" for 1, maybe 2 of its patches late in its lifecycle does not make it a good expansion. You can draw a straight line from Legions systems to the absolute catastrophe that was BFA... and we still have not recovered from it.
    BFA with better more Legion like systems would have been good. The heart and Azerite gear sucked. Remove the failure that is Warfronts and make the world content better with a Suramar like zone. Give us something as good as Artifact weapons. Suddenly BFA is fixed. Well the final patch content kinda sucked, but I think they were already behind from fixing the launch that they had to scrap the Nyalotha zone which is unfortunate.

  16. #176
    You cant shoehorn modern wow into 1 expansion or era of wow and just expect it to fit.

    Q. When did the game stop being a social network with a game layed out ontop of it instead of the other way around?
    A. Mid-Wotlk, gearscore and achievements requirements to gatekeep people from content they could otherwise be included in, Simulationcraft also created an enviroment where people were guided towards min-maxing and after initial imbalance, Arena in WotLK was considered quite balanced (compared to TBC)

    This got worse over time with random dungeon finder tool, though i think the system is a great addition to the game for non-endgame content because i sure as shit dont want a million messages in LFG chat asking for tanks and heals for whatever low level dungeon.

    Heirlooms added in WotLK while not detrimental themselves created an enviroment where rerolling or having comparatively geared alts was the norm, thus leading to things like split raiding or using them to learn bosses with limited attempts.

    While there was some difficult raiding in WotLK, next came Cataclysm.

    Cataclysm released and while things like gearscore, achievement requirements and simulationcraft were festering, the launch dungeon and raid content of Cataclysm was far and away more difficult than WotLK so people are then doubling down on excluding people they cant deem they cant trust.

    MoP arrived and the game was extensively advertised to non-mmo players, this is where things went downhill..fast..
    By the release of WoD which itself was a failure of blizzard, the introduction of mythic further fragmented players.
    WoD, Legion, BFA and Shadowlands are all atrocious, they are full of throwaway system bloat which only serves to increase their engagement numbers, it has nothing to do with systems that players actually want.
    Last edited by Spicymemer; 2021-04-11 at 03:32 AM.

  17. #177
    When LFR was added.

    LFG in Wrath was bad, it certainly impacted server communities to a degree, but LFR completely destroyed the raiding scene. A pretty sizable chunk of the WoW playerbase was only raiding to see the content and beat the boss, and anyone who ran a guild before and after it was added can attest to how much more difficult recruitment and management became after LFR.

    Trivializing the most difficult content in the game is a dumb fucking stupid idea. Accessibility is not what people played WoW for and not what they should be playing WoW for.

  18. #178
    Elemental Lord GreenJesus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I'd say that the second age was only Cata and MOP. I think it was the perfect balance, it hadn't tipped too far in the wrong direction. The content may have been shit but the design philosophies were sound.
    Isle of thunder and siege of orgrimmar and the beautiful zones and good story of pandaria were shit? Lol okay dude. We get it. You don't like pandas. Doesn't make the content shit.

  19. #179
    I kinda wanna say cata since they threw out talent trees and split druid into 4s but MoP was really the start. cata was a weird transition of an expansion and a lot of the work went on behind the scenes and in revamping the vanilla zones, mop was the first expansion where they could take the new tech from cata and work it into actual content from the start
    Last edited by Sableye; 2021-04-11 at 04:37 AM.

  20. #180
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    towards the end of cata and beginning with mists is when i'd say modern wow started, that's right around when the fun died lol

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