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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    I agree, but the plot says otherwise.
    Anima is clearly not something that was previously stored in the long term. The Covenants are running on fumes after a only a year.

    So what's important here isn't the total amount the Maw gets, but the constant supply of it.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    Pretty sure the mawsworn are only able to act in such a way because of Sylvannus breaking the helm.

    What else good is breaking the helm for otherwise?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2 View Post
    Except the Mawsworn couldn't even leave the Maw until Sylvanas broke the helm.
    They're still Kyrian at the root, who travel out of the Shadowlands all the time.
    And they're shown to be directly tied to Helya who has also been able to communicate at least into and out of the Maw.

    Breaking the helm was just to shatter the veil itself for whatever final plan there is. There's also Kyrian who were very much following the Jailer yet who traveled around just fine, like Devos.

    So dunno where you're getting that they're trapped there. If they were genuinely trapped, shattered sky or not, they wouldn't be able to leave.

  3. #43
    Scarab Lord
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    Imo there's some pretty good arguments for either Argus or Xavius having something to do with it but how and why are just pure specualtion. In a complex system chaos is inevitable...
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    An except to the rule that also isn't. They go through a cycle of life and rebirth and eventually leads back into the Emerald Dream.
    But the Emerald Dream is not the 'Life' dimension. It is a Titan-made virtual reality designed to interface with the sleeping world-soul of Azeroth. It's Azeroth's dream, made into a pocket reality by Freya/Eonar. The Wild Gods transit back and forth between the Emerald Dream and Azeroth because the Wild Gods became Wild Gods due to exposure to the magic from the Well of Eternity. They are the foremost Gods representing the cosmic force of Life but bounce between the Shadowlands and a Titan-constructed Dimension as part of their cycle of life and death, there is no 'Life dimension' and the Emerald Dream certainly is not it.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Yeah, that's why the Wild Gods go to the Shadowlands too, right?
    They go to Ardenweald, which is the resting place for all beings of Life, especially those that are tied to the Emerald Dream.

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    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    But the Emerald Dream is not the 'Life' dimension. It is a Titan-made virtual reality designed to interface with the sleeping world-soul of Azeroth. It's Azeroth's dream, made into a pocket reality by Freya/Eonar. The Wild Gods transit back and forth between the Emerald Dream and Azeroth because the Wild Gods became Wild Gods due to exposure to the magic from the Well of Eternity. They are the foremost Gods representing the cosmic force of Life but bounce between the Shadowlands and a Titan-constructed Dimension as part of their cycle of life and death, there is no 'Life dimension' and the Emerald Dream certainly is not it.
    The Dream was crafted by the Titans, sure. But it was once apart of something greater prior to Eonar/Freya tampering with it.

    Also, there is a Life dimension. It's called the Gardens of Life.

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    Besides, it seems like the Dream itself isn't just what we've seen from the Titans. We could explore more of the actual Emerald Dream (The Gardens of Life) later in SL, if the plot decides to go there. Reminder that the most we've seen of the Dream was the heart of the Titan influenced side of it.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Emerald_Dream

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    Besides, the Ardenweald and Life plot is important anyway, since the Jailer's still going to be bound to the Maw so long as the Heart of the Forest stays intact. Would be the perfect plotline for 9.2.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    They go to Ardenweald, which is the resting place for all beings of Life, especially those that are tied to the Emerald Dream.

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    The Dream was crafted by the Titans, sure. But it was once apart of something greater prior to Eonar/Freya tampering with it.

    Also, there is a Life dimension. It's called the Gardens of Life.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Besides, it seems like the Dream itself isn't just what we've seen from the Titans. We could explore more of the actual Emerald Dream (The Gardens of Life) later in SL, if the plot decides to go there. Reminder that the most we've seen of the Dream was the heart of the Titan influenced side of it.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Emerald_Dream

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    Besides, the Ardenweald and Life plot is important anyway, since the Jailer's still going to be bound to the Maw so long as the Heart of the Forest stays intact. Would be the perfect plotline for 9.2.
    This is the first I'm hearing about a Garden of Life, is that canon?

    I was somewhat aware that the force behind the Wild Gods somehow transcends Azeroth, because we've seen Wild Gods on Draenor and other planets too. That suggests a power distinct from Azeroth's dream, and her blood via Well of Eternity, and any Titan interference, but I was under the impression the force was elemental Spirit, which is usually abundant on worlds without world-souls (who suck it all up).

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    This is the first I'm hearing about a Garden of Life, is that canon?
    It's mentioned by some NPCs in Maldraxxus. We don't really know anything about them beyond that, though, just that they exist. Gardens, though, not Garden.

    It thus seems likely that each force has an associated realm.


    Though all of these discussions make me wonder why so few people consider who would have both means and motive to break the machine - which pretty much leaves us with Denathrius. The red glow does not follow the stream of souls, it comes in at an angle and is clearly aimed at the arbiter, meaning it is a deliberate attack. Given the vastness of the Shadowlands, such an attack by an outside force would be incredibly hard to pull off. The whole thing is a bit to delicate to leave such issues to chance.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    It's mentioned by some NPCs in Maldraxxus. We don't really know anything about them beyond that, though, just that they exist. Gardens, though, not Garden.

    It thus seems likely that each force has an associated realm.


    Though all of these discussions make me wonder why so few people consider who would have both means and motive to break the machine - which pretty much leaves us with Denathrius. The red glow does not follow the stream of souls, it comes in at an angle and is clearly aimed at the arbiter, meaning it is a deliberate attack. Given the vastness of the Shadowlands, such an attack by an outside force would be incredibly hard to pull off. The whole thing is a bit to delicate to leave such issues to chance.
    I'm not sure I would go as far as to make big lore inferences based on something like the angle of attack of the soul. All we know is that it wasn't an ordinary soul, and it was a tremendously powerful and evil one. I can see how, if Argus died, and that was his corrupted world-soul entering the stream of souls from reality -> shadowlands, it would track that it it's going to take a chaotic path.

    I highly doubt it was a mega magic missile cast from some super powered being.

    If the Nathrezim were up to it, we'll probably find out very soon when the 9.1 PTR drops.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    This is the first I'm hearing about a Garden of Life, is that canon?

    I was somewhat aware that the force behind the Wild Gods somehow transcends Azeroth, because we've seen Wild Gods on Draenor and other planets too. That suggests a power distinct from Azeroth's dream, and her blood via Well of Eternity, and any Titan interference, but I was under the impression the force was elemental Spirit, which is usually abundant on worlds without world-souls (who suck it all up).
    Yes. It was mentioned by an NPC in the Maldraxxus quest "Blade of Blades", where he boasts about slaying Titans with this "PROFOUND WEAPON", and how he slew lots of guys from the Light, from the Void, and even meddlers from the Gardens of Life.

    https://www.wowhead.com/quest=57284/...lades#comments

    It's funny, cause when you actually find the blade, it's unimpressive asf. Meaning, the guy's a cocky idiot. But the Gardens still likely exist.

    Even the "dreadlords" talk about the Adherents of Life, their plane, and the planes heavy connection with Ardenweald in the Enemy Infiltration: Preface book. Seems there is a vulnerability within Ardenweald that could lead into the Gardens and its fall. Also doesn't help that the Heart of the Forest within Ardenweald is kinda...the thing that's keeping the Jailer stuck in the Maw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    I'm not sure I would go as far as to make big lore inferences based on something like the angle of attack of the soul. All we know is that it wasn't an ordinary soul, and it was a tremendously powerful and evil one. I can see how, if Argus died, and that was his corrupted world-soul entering the stream of souls from reality -> shadowlands, it would track that it it's going to take a chaotic path.

    I highly doubt it was a mega magic missile cast from some super powered being.

    If the Nathrezim were up to it, we'll probably find out very soon when the 9.1 PTR drops.
    My assumption is that Sargeras' blade and powers were amp'd up by Anima, and Sargeras empowered Argus, who was full of corrupted Anima. Then, once Argus died, the corrupted Sargeras anima from within Argus went back to its source, right to the Arbiter.

    Meaning, Fel corrupted dark Anima >>>> Fucks over the Arbiter's body. That breaks the machine of Death, which then leads to the drought, which THEN leads to the Jailer finally making his move. The Jailer apparently has a history with fucking over the Cosmos, especially the Legion and Sargeras.

    No cap, they wrote Sargeras as a big dumb idiot.

  10. #50
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    The entire "death titan" thing was just a file name and was never mentioned in story ever.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  11. #51
    offtopic:

    it seems i should pay more attention to the story. i didnt know the heart of the forest keeps the jailer in the maw. makes me think why it's called heart of the forest. maybe it contains the thing that's supposed to be in his chest?

    if that were a thing, that would lead back to topic:
    maybe the intention of the draught is about withering away the heart. but what would happen then? his heart being simply revealed to be found by his minions?
    what if it is supposed to keep said heart alive to prevent the jailer leaving the maw by just dying...

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    I'm not sure I would go as far as to make big lore inferences based on something like the angle of attack of the soul.
    Blizzard pays a lot of attention to detail in cinematics. Besides, you're the one presuming that it was a soul at all.

    Whatever it was, it also didn't take a chaotic path. It headed straight for the Arbiter. If you were to just randomly throw stuff along a straight line, chances that you hit anything in particular in such a huge space are pretty much nil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    The entire "death titan" thing was just a file name and was never mentioned in story ever.
    That, too. I'm not sure why people get so hung up on it. His actual name is Argus the Unmaker, not Argus the Death Titan or anything like that. He doesn't really have any Death connections beyond some ability names, which could just as easily come from his attempts to kill us. For that matter, they don't really match the aesthetics we're seeing from actual Death abilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enter Name Here View Post
    offtopic:

    it seems i should pay more attention to the story. i didnt know the heart of the forest keeps the jailer in the maw. makes me think why it's called heart of the forest. maybe it contains the thing that's supposed to be in his chest?

    if that were a thing, that would lead back to topic:
    maybe the intention of the draught is about withering away the heart. but what would happen then? his heart being simply revealed to be found by his minions?
    what if it is supposed to keep said heart alive to prevent the jailer leaving the maw by just dying...
    I think it's just the core of Ardenweald that keeps the whole place together, i.e. the literal Heart of the Forest, with being the lock on the Jailer's cage being a later addition, chosen since it's protection was already paramount to the Winter Queen anyway.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    The problem with this is the assumption that The Arbiter would not have sent Helya to the Maw anyways. The presence of someone who would obviously never have been sent to The Maw like Vol'jin, Varian, etc. would be more of an indicator than Helya.
    Souls are not sent directly to the Maw. They are sent to Revendreth in an attempt to reform the spirit; Only of that fails, they will be sent to the Maw, but it takes a long time. Thus, Helya haven't had time to be attempted to be reformed and deemed hopeless yet..

    Just take a look at Kael'thas... They have barely started with him, and he died several years prior to Helya...


    And both Varian and Vol'jin died long before Ursoc.
    Fact (because I say so): TBC > Cata > Legion > ShaLa > MoP > BfA > WoD = WotLK

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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    It's obviously Argus..
    It is not obviously Argus, it could also have been Remornia. She glows red as well, and the sound the light makes is similar to that of Remornia when she attacks Renethal. Remornia absorbed Denathrius's soul when he died, so it shows she can absorb souls. With enough of the Anima that Denathrius stole he could make Remornia powerful enough to shut down the Arbitor.

    For it to be Argus, the Jailer would have to have been orchestrating EVERYONES movements, from the Draenei, to Azeroth, to the Burning Legion, to get us to go kill Argus to send it's soul to the Shadowlands to shutdown the Arbitor. You also see the red light hit the Arbitor, the other souls don't hit her, that light was specifically sent there to collide with her not just be judged.

    Also, the world quest Limbo states that a spirit bound to a cosmic power, go to that realms plane. Thus the Titans go to the Plane of Order and not the Shadowlands.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    The entire "death titan" thing was just a file name and was never mentioned in story ever.
    Except you're wrong.

    "Dapperdew yells: Argus, the Unmaker! They sought to create a Death Titan, knowing full well that Death falls under the purview of the Shadowlands and our illustrious Queen! This clearly would not do, so the adventurers struck out to achieve the impossible: to slay a world itself!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    It is not obviously Argus, it could also have been Remornia. She glows red as well, and the sound the light makes is similar to that of Remornia when she attacks Renethal. Remornia absorbed Denathrius's soul when he died, so it shows she can absorb souls. With enough of the Anima that Denathrius stole he could make Remornia powerful enough to shut down the Arbitor.

    For it to be Argus, the Jailer would have to have been orchestrating EVERYONES movements, from the Draenei, to Azeroth, to the Burning Legion, to get us to go kill Argus to send it's soul to the Shadowlands to shutdown the Arbitor. You also see the red light hit the Arbitor, the other souls don't hit her, that light was specifically sent there to collide with her not just be judged.

    Also, the world quest Limbo states that a spirit bound to a cosmic power, go to that realms plane. Thus the Titans go to the Plane of Order and not the Shadowlands.
    Knowing what Blizzard's doing with the Jailer rn...

    Him orchestrating everyone's movements is actually not impossible.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Knowing what Blizzard's doing with the Jailer rn...

    Him orchestrating everyone's movements is actually not impossible.
    If Denathrius did create the Nathrezim and they have been fooling everyone this whole time, it is possible, but still highly unlikely. Cause so many things out of his control would have needed to happen for this whole plan to work as well.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  17. #57
    After waving all the evidence, the ritual Gul'dan made atop the Nightspire might not be stranger to the Arbiter's downfall.

    There was a lot of powerplay there.

    Azeroth's power powering up the nightwell.
    The eye of Aman'thul locking up this nightwell
    The essence of Sargeras used by Gul'dan to try to imbue Illidan's body.
    Illidan
    X'era.


    And what happened? Look the end of the cinematic, the portal did not close or collapse normally. It even emitted a blastwave that free Illidan. The power required must have gone somewhere. And who was in Suramar to oversee the Legion's forces ?

    Tichondrius, the very leader of the Dreadlord.

    Plus, the energy of the portal was red.


    Moreover, the Arcanomancer Vridel had some interesting line concerning what happened.
    "This is worrisome. Gul'dan's defeat may have disrupted forces far more fundamental than anyone realized."
    " The reaction's intensity was accelerating by the day, and Vridiel feared they may win the fight against the Legion only to lose something very dear to them"
    Last edited by Engal; 2021-03-31 at 10:24 PM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    If Denathrius did create the Nathrezim and they have been fooling everyone this whole time, it is possible, but still highly unlikely. Cause so many things out of his control would have needed to happen for this whole plan to work as well.
    I mean...

    The Legion happened. The LK shit still managed to lead into Sylvanas going straight into the Jailer's hands, etc etc.

    Seems the Jailer's conveniently got this shit under the bag. Until we kill him, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    After waving all the evidence, the ritual Gul'dan made atop the Nightspire might not be stranger to the Arbiter's downfall.

    There was a lot of powerplay there.

    Azeroth's power powering up the nightwell.
    The eye of Aman'thul locking up this nightwell
    The essence of Sargeras used by Gul'dan to try to imbue Illidan's body.
    Illidan
    X'era.


    And what happened? Look the end of the cinematic, the portal did not close or collapse normally. It even emitted a blastwave that free Illidan. The power required must have gone somewhere. And who was in Suramar to oversee the Legion's forces ?

    Tichondrius, the very leader of the Dreadlord.

    Plus, the energy of the portal was red.


    Moreover, the Arcanomancer Viridel had some interesting line concerning what happened.
    "This is worrisome. Gul'dan's defeat may have disrupted forces far more fundamental than anyone realized."
    " The reaction's intensity was accelerating by the day, and Vridiel feared they may win the fight against the Legion only to lose something very dear to them"
    I always just assumed the ritual was for a portal to Argus and the Nether. Maybe it did affect the Shadowlands too? I doubt it tho.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    I mean...

    The Legion happened. The LK shit still managed to lead into Sylvanas going straight into the Jailer's hands, etc etc.

    Seems the Jailer's conveniently got this shit under the bag. Until we kill him, of course.

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    I always just assumed the ritual was for a portal to Argus and the Nether. Maybe it did affect the Shadowlands too? I doubt it tho.
    I assumed that much. But if, for example... Dreadlords present highjacked the ritual to divert its power to something else... like blasting the arbiter in the shadowlands.... I mean it was part of the Jailer's plan, he needed her shutd to harvest anima, and to do this, it should have been an event he could turn like a switch when needed. The ritual atop the Nightspire might have been this very " switch ", and that is maybe the " victory that went unnoticed " according to Ogmot's Diary

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    It is not obviously Argus, it could also have been Remornia.
    No way, there's no screechy voice yelling the whole way. It couldn't possibly be Remornia or Navi.

    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Except you're wrong.

    "Dapperdew yells: Argus, the Unmaker! They sought to create a Death Titan, knowing full well that Death falls under the purview of the Shadowlands and our illustrious Queen! This clearly would not do, so the adventurers struck out to achieve the impossible: to slay a world itself!"
    It's questionable how accurate that is. The reasoning for why we fought him is total bollocks. Besides, "sought to" doesn't mean that they actually succeeded at it.

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