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  1. #21
    I think the problem is that any content made into a Classic expansion will have a few things that make the content easier. Most of the content gets nerfed at some point during an expansion and currently at least Classic content has been launching on the last patch with a multitude of class balance changes and nerfs to the raid content. Barring that, we also have knowledge on what classes to stack for the best outcome of pushing that content even when undergeared because we know what world first guilds used; for example, take Heroic Nefarian from Cataclysm. This is a fight a lot of guilds struggled with until people discovered that the massive DPS buff given would snapshot for DoTs and people started stacking feral druids to push the fight down much faster. This is something that is currently known and could be applied to any Classic release of Cataclysm to bring a large amount of DoT classes for this content, especially in later patches where shadow priests were quite strong if it were to launch on the last patch of the expansion.

    In terms of just being properly geared and even with current knowledge, I still think Cataclysm would hold an edge over most expansions. A lot of the fights were starting to bring in more difficult mechanics and the heroic versions of T11 content also required kiting the likes of which we haven't really seen since for Magmaw and Conclave, which a lot of players would probably struggle with if they don't have experience doing. T12 in Firelands was incredibly difficult content even when slightly OVERgeared for it, with Ragnaros in particular being a nightmare of a fight, and Dragon Soul may be a very hated and disliked raid but it had very difficult bosses for the time at least and some decent mechanics like requiring a split raid for the first boss, crazy DPS requirements for some things like Spine, etc.

    I think Wrath is just lacking in terms of mechanics to really hold down the current day players because with the right raid group the fights would be easy with current knowledge and the end of expansion patch power levels for some classes. If Wrath were to launch with shadow priests having their absolutely insane shadow apparitions that they had leading into Cataclysm, the entire raid scene would be absolutely covered in shadow priests tab doting and running in circles because apparitions spawned more while moving; I could spawn enough of them to disconnect some of my raid team with the sheer quantity of them at times. It really just depends on the patch, but all in all the raid content was still fairly easy compared to anything seen these days and the end of Wrath into beginning of Cata is really when raid fights started shifting from DPS checks into actual mechanical challenges.

    It also really depends on what you consider the content to be cleared. If we're just talking normal, everything is a breeze until maybe WoD/Legion content. Heroic, Cata/WoD have some difficult content. If you're talking about pushing the hardest hard modes (0 Light Yogg, Algalon) then Wrath could be difficult but there was no reason to farm 0 Light Yogg outside of farming the mount so I feel like it's not really necessary to consider the content cleared.

  2. #22
    Vanilla would be extremely hard and outright impossible for most if they had to use computers built in 1999-2003 and played on dialup modem. FPS would be crap. Modern machines and cable modems provide a smooth experience with super high FPS that make it easy. Vanilla raids HAD to be simpler because people did not have the hardware to handle extremely difficult content on that engine.

    I remember raiding in BC and during the Magtheridon fight, I had to zoom in and point my camera straight down otherwise my FPS would be 3 when the roof starting caving in. I would get 15-20 but couldn't really see anything.
    Last edited by Kokolums; 2021-04-01 at 09:08 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  3. #23
    Define easy. Is naxx in classic considered easy? Sow would then anything harder than classic naxx be considered hard? or is the bar higher?

    I think that all bosses from any expansions be4 somewhat advanced dps rotations became a thing will inevitably become easy. Like, lets look at m'uru. As a mage, i press fireball, and fireball, and fireball... theres no skill in it, some target swapping, some spreading with a /range addon, but theres very little for me to look out for. Sure other classes have more stuff to do, but many simply doesnt have that much to do. Its a step up from naxx for sure, but not an enormous one. Will sunwell classic be considered easy or hard? who can say. its up to the audience to decide.

    Doing mechanics isnt hard, doing mechanics while also optimizing your dps rotation is where the difficulty is. And im not sure even cata bosses tick the box for having advanced enough dps/healing rotations to qualify, many specs still had very few procs or short time cds to micromanage and adapt to.

    Might have to step into mop or even wod territory be4 the number of abilities to handle starts approaching any level of stress.
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  4. #24
    The Patient Zaeyla's Avatar
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    As someone who played a ton of classic, I don't think anything will really compare to modern Shadowlands raids until probably WoD-Legion if I had to guess and even then its only going to be certain fights on mythic raid difficulty. There will still be plenty of face roll content if done by modern players.

  5. #25
    My rough criteria for judging difficulty is

    "How many clickers/keyboard turners/don't know rotation/doesnt know mechanics/dont know the whatdaqucs they are doing people can you bring to the raids and still beat it?"

    The percentage would decrease as expansions go by. I would say Wrath is the beginning of the era where you needed everyone to be somewhat competent to beat the hardest difficulty, though that bar would be still low compared to today's standards.
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  6. #26
    In my opinion WOTLK is the first time I would say the mechanics pose any challenge for someone who has mythic raided sometime in the 'current' game.
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  7. #27
    Probably the ones with the most randomness.

    But for any expansion you will have a few guilds that will just destroy them and then a group of people here who watched the stream claiming how easy it was and how they were always a joke.

  8. #28
    Bloodsail Admiral Xykotic's Avatar
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    Naxx was decently difficult, and I think many guilds will struggle with Kael, Vashj, Hyjal, parts of Black Temple and most of Sunwell.
    Most people were completely unable to down even a single boss in Sunwell in TBC. Some of that difficulty will remain, even with modern sensibilities and knowledge.

  9. #29
    25 HC Lich King would be a start. Cata is basically almost modern territory (in many aspects), from that point changes between expacs are rather minor.

    But remember that any raid will be cleared in less than 24 hours by any skilled and organized guild. People just have access to tactics, hell tryhards can even try fight on some pri*ate.. places.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Viikkis View Post
    Been reading the arguments in the thread about vanilla/TBC raid difficulty vs Wrath ICC25M Heroic. I noticed an interesting thing. Even Wrath, the so often praised expansion with its Ulduar hardmodes and heroic ICC with The Lich King who didn't fall before being nerfed, is labeled “easy” by many people.
    I dunno where you've been, but people were ALWAYS saying that Wrath raids were easy and it was Classic/TBC when things were supposed to be hard.
    There's no doubt that whenever ICC comes out, 25m hc lich king will be cleared on day one.

    Raids have only become really ridiculous in WoD and maybe to a lesser extent in MoP, though I remember doing heroics in MoP with pugs and they were definitely doable. It was only in WoD where mythic raiding truly became "unreachable" for the average player.

  11. #31
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    There arrent really any hard encounters in the game. The biggest issue is the teamwork with 10 25 or 40 random people..

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    I dunno where you've been, but people were ALWAYS saying that Wrath raids were easy and it was Classic/TBC when things were supposed to be hard.
    People were saying ICC 25 Heroic was easy in 2009 when it came out? It wasn't cleared until the first nerf 5% I believe. And Paragon was considered a pretty good guild back then so surely it should've been easy for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    There's no doubt that whenever ICC comes out, 25m hc lich king will be cleared on day one.
    Cleared on day one for sure on classic, but by how many? Top guilds will not struggle but how about your average "dad guild"?

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Raids have only become really ridiculous in WoD and maybe to a lesser extent in MoP, though I remember doing heroics in MoP with pugs and they were definitely doable. It was only in WoD where mythic raiding truly became "unreachable" for the average player.
    I do think that WoD with its mythic difficulty raised the bar. No doubt about that.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Viikkis View Post
    People were saying ICC 25 Heroic was easy in 2009 when it came out? It wasn't cleared until the first nerf 5% I believe. And Paragon was considered a pretty good guild back then so surely it should've been easy for them.
    Yes, people were calling it easy back in 2009 too. The moment that LK fell, people have compared the days between the kill and release with TBC and Classic raids and thus the verdict was that it was an easy raid. And tbh ICC wasn't even the "hardest" raid in wrath anyways.

    Cleared on day one for sure on classic, but by how many? Top guilds will not struggle but how about your average "dad guild"?
    This content is so easy that new wrath private server projects nowadays intentionally buff every raid and even use this as a reason why should join their server. And still, whenever ICC finally gets released it gets cleared (25 hc) almost immediately by half of the 25m guilds on the server.

    And that's why I have no doubts whatsoever that whenever ICC 25m heroic gets re-released, it will be cleared as quickly as other guilds have cleared naxx40, although this time there will be far more active guilds, because of the smaller raid sizes and because it is so easy to catch up gearing wise.

  14. #34
    I would say non raids are only hard when you dont know what to do and generally they get nerfed when they are really hard.

    Also on a note if you dont know what to do all raids are hard.

  15. #35
    What's the cutoff for "Classic expansion"?
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Yes, people were calling it easy back in 2009 too. The moment that LK fell, people have compared the days between the kill and release with TBC and Classic raids and thus the verdict was that it was an easy raid. And tbh ICC wasn't even the "hardest" raid in wrath anyways.



    This content is so easy that new wrath private server projects nowadays intentionally buff every raid and even use this as a reason why should join their server. And still, whenever ICC finally gets released it gets cleared (25 hc) almost immediately by half of the 25m guilds on the server.

    And that's why I have no doubts whatsoever that whenever ICC 25m heroic gets re-released, it will be cleared as quickly as other guilds have cleared naxx40, although this time there will be far more active guilds, because of the smaller raid sizes and because it is so easy to catch up gearing wise.
    Everything in this post is complete BS. You get off on that or what?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by stevenho View Post
    Everything in this post is complete BS. You get off on that or what?
    No? As someone who's been playing on wrath private servers for now a decade (and I still am), I think I know what I am talking about.
    If you think I am wrong, then reply at least with some arguments. Being toxic and saying nothing is pointless for everyone, but I am glad I wasted your time.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    No? As someone who's been playing on wrath private servers for now a decade (and I still am)
    Private servers got many things wrong though and they can't be considered a 1:1 experience to the retail version. We saw that with Nostalrius which was said to be really accurate and "Blizzlike" but turned out it had many things wrong. Now Wrath is probably the most playable and accurate of all of the expansions in that scene but still at the end of the day they're just emulating the real thing.

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer Littleraven's Avatar
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    I honestly don't think any of the raids would be that mechanically difficult until probably Wrath and even then I think people would just steamroll them with all the resources at our disposal now. The main factor here is the numbers game. How quickly people could get geared up enough to clear the raids.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    No? As someone who's been playing on wrath private servers for now a decade (and I still am), I think I know what I am talking about.
    If you think I am wrong, then reply at least with some arguments. Being toxic and saying nothing is pointless for everyone, but I am glad I wasted your time.
    I can't since discussing private servers results in infractions and then bans. It is a dumb rule but I've been infracted for it before.

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